Christianity - History's Greatest Scam

Originally posted by makinho21
reply to post by IDK88

 

I have decided Totakeke is not worth my time and ignored him - I don't know if that removes his posts from my thread, but if they disappear that is why. He doesn't offer anything constructive and comes in to the discussion with the assumption he is right and everyone else is wrong - therefore he gets blocked.

I was speaking to IDK88, not you. He had genuine questions. You don't, you're just here because you feel like hating on Christianity.

If you want to talk about something constructive how about you post something that doesn't just bash Christianity?

By the way, ignoring me won't remove my posts from your thread. But it might remove them only for you. I don't know.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by Totakeke]

IDK is taking the piss Tota and you are too dumb to realise it

I started out having patience with you but I'm with Mak- I won't put you on ignore I will just ignore anything else you have to say here as you aren't listening to anything anyone here has to say, all you are doing is preaching

Oh and btw





Catholics ARE christians- whether you approve or not

Its not a waste of time talking about Religion and its doctrine holding humanity back for its slave like devotion to deities and demigods. Religion is a major problem to human spyche, and to the mass mind. Religion uses fear and indoctrination and the mass mind to undermine the individual. So yes this is indeed a serious "backwards and garbage" subject that needs answers and critical judgement to free mankind from its enslaved mind.

reply to post by Deaf Alien

Thank god for the freedom we have today.

I don't care what the OP discusses. He can discuss what he wants. But, I just think that it's foolish to go and discuss something that you think is trash.

They still push for teaching Creationism in public schools. They still push for jailing homosexuals.

Is there anything wrong with discussing alternative views as to the start of the Universe? Many Christians don't want it taught as the only way. Just as an alternative and that the kids should decide.

That is the reason for discussing it.

I'm all for discussing my faith. Apologetics is something that I really enjoy. But, when you want to discuss something like religion, starting out saying that it's "backwards" and "garbage" probably isn't the way to go.

reply to post by lifecitizen


If I may, when Totakeke says that "his Christianity is right" he doesn't mean every single point of doctrine and thing that he believes is the only right thing. He is referring specifically to what the Bible itself reveals about the means of salvation, which is essentially "God's grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ". Many Christians believe this. I do too, so "his" Christianity is also mine.

That's not to say that we'd agree 100% on every doctrinal point or issue. But, we agree on the way of salvation, which the Bible teaches, with nothing added to it. That is why we'd say that "our" Christianity is right, biblically speaking.

reply to post by Deaf Alien


The teaching of the Bible is very clear. What often happens when people go to the Bible though is that they bring their churches traditions to it and try to fit them into it. That basically is why there are 38,000 denominations. People didn't like another's traditions, left that church, and started their own—with no regard for what the Bible may have to say.

reply to post by refuse_orders

Surely though the OP is entitled to an opinion regardless of what you think of it

Of course he's allowed to have his own opinion. I'm not the thought police.

reply to post by makinho21

nowhere in my statement did I say "octotom is repulsive and backwards",

I know that you didn't call me backwards and repulsive directly. But you did say that something that I believe in, is backwards. Therefore, would that call me backwards by believing it, though indirectly? It's hard to separate a belief, no matter what it is, from it's adherents. Is it possible for someone to believe in the virgin birth and not be backwards? Is it possible for someone to believe in Christ's atoning sacrifice and not be repulsive?

though his comments are rather annoying at times.

I don't think you've seen enough of my comments to say that. I saw you for the first time sometime last week.

If he should feel trodden on, that is his decision and there is nothing I can do about that.

For the record, I don't feel troddened on. Anyone that has a belief system should expect criticism from time to time. To not expect it is naive. As I've said elsewhere, criticism is good because it spurs me to study more and I often and better able to understand my faith.

"troll" as he thinks I am doing.

I said that you were trolling because, from the OP, it seemed that you weren't really looking for answers, you just wanted an argument. If that was not the case, I apologize and ask for your forgiveness, for wrongly judging your motive.

and to have someone oppose a religious view is unacceptable. ... I wonder who decided that? The fanatical christian right comes to mind

I think in the next few years, you'll see more and more of Christianity not thinking it's an evil thing to oppose it. The new generation of Christian leaders that is up and coming is very different from that which came before us. I think it was started long before the "Christians right" started to freak out when people questioned Christianity. For decades now, it's been the status quo to not talk about religion. I think that some of the more fundamentalist Christians feel threatened when they're opposed or questioned because, they aren't strong in their faith. Because of that, they try to force the country to be Christian because they don't like to be questioned. I could be wrong though, that's just my observation.

I was watching the movie Conan the Barbarian recently and even though I'd seen the movie many times over the last 27 or so years, it only now seems to me now that a subplot of the movie involved a commentary concerning religion.

In what way is contemporary religion different from the group led by Thulsa Doom in this movie? An old King, Osric, when seeking Conan's assistance in retrieving his daughter tells Conan that the girl doesn't even recognize her own father, being under the spell of Thulsa Doom...or something like that.

Will Christians recognize their Father upon his return or are they forever under the spell of the image given to them in the Bible?

As you can probably tell...I do know what it is you are waiting for but I don't know if you know what it is you are waiting for or if you will know him if you see him. My response implies that I believe that someone real and important to you has been murdered and replaced in your minds with something that is not real, by a crafty little Priest like Thulsa Doom.

Originally posted by Totakeke


The Bible says Christ is the only way; Catholics say Christ and works is the only way. The Bible is God's Word, and since Catholicism doesn't adhere to God's word it's not Christian.

That's nonsensical. It was the Catholics who created the Bible in the first place.

Regardless, I agree with the OP, at least concerning the literal interpretation of Christianity. It is obvious that the story of the Virgin Birth was based on Isis and Horus, and the parallels between Jesus and Osiris/Horus, Mithras, Krishna, etc. need no further comment.

On the other hand, that's not to say that Christianity is worthless. Sure, the stuff being passed off today as "Christianity" is usually worthless, and is indeed a scam, but it was originally founded upon the rock of the Sacred Mysteries, under the appellation of Gnosticism. Only in a corrupted form did it survive within Catholicism, and turned into a rather bizarre cult under Protestantism.

Originally posted by octotom

Is there anything wrong with discussing alternative views as to the start of the Universe?

No, but it should be relegated to philosophy class or world religions. The creationist belief is not a scientific theory, and is therefore not appropriate for a science classroom.

reply to post by Masonic Light


There we run into a problem in America. I personally would be fine with the creationist belief being taught in a religion class [despite some scientific things that support it], but in America, if you want to have a religion/philosophy class in the public schools, people blow a gasket.

Originally posted by octotom


There we run into a problem in America. I personally would be fine with the creationist belief being taught in a religion class [despite some scientific things that support it], but in America, if you want to have a religion/philosophy class in the public schools, people blow a gasket.

And that's unfortunate. I think both philosophy and religion should be required in high schools, both disciplines teach people to think and balance ideas.

reply to post by octotom


But that's not the case at all. Since when have these people ever called for "a religious/philosophy class" alternative...no no that is definitely not the route they pursue. Surely when they specifically claim it is an alternative to evolution one should recognize they intend to pass off religious belief as scientific fact - some go as far as wanting to completely replace evolution and the scientific view. That is a problem. That is rubbish and repulsive.
Does that make these people rubbish and repulsive? Nay, I feel they are mislead by a repulsive ideal.
I don't feel as you do that it is difficult to separate a belief and its adherent - religion, to me, seems similar to one's political stance in a lot of ways. I don't agree with fighting in Iraq (or for me, Afghanistan - which is what my country participates in). However the people who do support this dumb war/s are not repulsive or stupid.
If that is your only problem with my criticism of something - that I shouldn't trample on a belief system because I may offend the followers - well ofcourse that will happen. It doesn't change the fact (in my opinion) that the propoganda and hate created by such a system is backwards, repulsive, and does humanity no good whatsoever. The same can be said for the fundamentalist Muslims and the ridiculous Zionists calling America to destroy the Islamic world and so on.
If we didn't ever disrespect things because we didn't want to hurt feelings...where the hell would we be in this world? Rosa Parks never would have taken the "white" seat on her bus for example.
I know when we did use this type of thinking - see Chamberlain and the idea of "Appeasement", which ended up with Germany walking over half of Europe before any resistance even surfaced.
Hurt feelings or anger doesn't equal wrong. I think the fact a negative response is found sometimes means they know themselves something is wrong with a certain set of beliefs.

My typing skills are suspect - so I had to go back and fix a few things.




[edit on 28-7-2009 by makinho21]

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by lifecitizen

 

If I may, when Totakeke says that "his Christianity is right" he doesn't mean every single point of doctrine and thing that he believes is the only right thing. He is referring specifically to what the Bible itself reveals about the means of salvation, which is essentially "God's grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ". Many Christians believe this. I do too, so "his" Christianity is also mine.

That's not to say that we'd agree 100% on every doctrinal point or issue. But, we agree on the way of salvation, which the Bible teaches, with nothing added to it. That is why we'd say that "our" Christianity is right, biblically speaking.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

reply to post by makinho21

But that's not the case at all. Since when have these people ever called for "a religious/philosophy class" alternative...no no that is definitely not the route they pursue.

Where I'm from in South Florida, almost every year, there are groups of people who want to start religion/philosophy classes in the public schools. They're always turned away. The reason that it's not widely reported is because the people aren't ultra-fundamentalist Christians who wear sandwich boards that tell you who God hates. [This is true a lot of the time with Christianity. All one sees are the crazies therefore, that is how most Christians are labeled.]

Surely when they specifically claim it is an alternative to evolution one should recognize they intend to pass off religious belief as scientific fact - some go as far as wanting to completely replace evolution and the scientific view. That is a problem. That is rubbish and repulsive.

The thing about teaching a creation or, being PC now, "Intelligent Design" is that it wouldn't be from any one religious view point. Not all scientists agree with the commonly accepted theories and have reached an ID conclusion as opposed to evolution. There are gaps and assumptions in the evolutionary theory that kids aren't taught in school. I guess the main thrust of what I'm trying to say is that, when two scientists can look at the same data and reach different conclusions, it is intellectually honest to hear what the other has to say and not assume one is true because he's in the majority.

An example from my life. I hold, naturally, certain theological viewpoints. Though I have certain views, I don't relegate myself to only reading books by others that expound my view. I just got finished reading a book that I didn't agree with at all. It's good that I read it thought because, though I didn't agree with it, it has made me think about and study more the position that I do agree with to make sure that I wasn't believing falsely.

If that is your only problem with my criticism of something - that I shouldn't trample on a belief system because I may offend the followers - well ofcourse that will happen.

My problem wasn't so much that you might call me a name that I didn't like. I just thought that it was silly that if you think that a belief system was silly, that you'd discuss it. Know what I mean?

It doesn't change the fact (in my opinion) that the propoganda and hate created by such a system is backwards, repulsive, and does humanity no good whatsoever.

I agree with you that religion has caused a deep divide in humanity. This has occured because some don't exercise any humility and would rather kill people that don't agree with them. I try daily though to try and bridge that divide. Religion needn't separate us. It is something, whether you adhere to a religion or not, that makes us human.

If we didn't ever disrespect things because we didn't want to hurt feelings...where the hell would we be in this world?

I just want to say again that I wasn't concerned about my "feelings being hurt". This is the Internet after all. I wouldn't take anything that's said personally. Being offended from time to time is good. Especially with regards to religion. The offense will either make you stronger in your faith or, unless you just follow blindly, show you that your belief is wrong. Each time that I've been questioned about my faith, I've always come out stronger than before.

Hurt feelings or anger doesn't equal wrong.

I agree.

I think the fact a negative response is found sometimes means they know themselves something is wrong with a certain set of beliefs.

Something that I would add to this is that when someone's feelings get hurt or they get angry because their belief [in whatever] in questioned, it could also show that they're not strong in that belief, or in other words, they don't know enough about that thing.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by lifecitizen

 

If I may, when Totakeke says that "his Christianity is right" he doesn't mean every single point of doctrine and thing that he believes is the only right thing. He is referring specifically to what the Bible itself reveals about the means of salvation, which is essentially "God's grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ". Many Christians believe this. I do too, so "his" Christianity is also mine.

That's not to say that we'd agree 100% on every doctrinal point or issue. But, we agree on the way of salvation, which the Bible teaches, with nothing added to it. That is why we'd say that "our" Christianity is right, biblically speaking.

Do you always feel the need to speak for others?

Your post implies I somehow don't understand what Tota was saying- I do and your post is saying the same thing- you guys are right, everyone else is wrong- it's okay I got it the first hundred times

I will say it again to you- Catholics are christians- they believe in Jesus, that he died for their sins that he was born of a virgin birth and that he was resurrected- that is what a christian is- you can say they're not playing properly but at the end of the day they are as christian as you both are.

reply to post by lifecitizen

Do you always feel the need to speak for others?

Your post implies I somehow don't understand what Tota was saying- I do and your post is saying the same thing- you guys are right, everyone else is wrong- it's okay I got it the first hundred times

Why do you have to be snippy? I though that I would chime in because, based on later posts from you, it didn't seem like you understood what Totakeke, and Christians as a whole, think. I don't think that you need to resort to this, as Totakeke has been civil through this whole discussion.

I will say it again to you- Catholics are christians- they believe in Jesus, that he died for their sins that he was born of a virgin birth and that he was resurrected- that is what a christian is- you can say they're not playing properly but at the end of the day they are as christian as you both are.

I agree with you that Catholics can be Christian. Here in Germany, there are some Catholic churches that preach the Gospel better than Protestant churches. There are Catholics here in Germany that faith is all you need for salvation [faith apart from works]. But, as a whole, it is hard to say that Catholics are Christian just as it's hard to say that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian. The reason being that they [Catholics] add to what the Bible says about a variety of issues, the biggest of which is the salvation issue.

[edit on 7/28/2009 by octotom]

Why do you have to be snippy?

Snippy?

-for asking why you feel the need to speak to others?

I though that I would chime in because, based on later posts from you, it didn't seem like you understood what Totakeke, and Christians as a whole, think.

Oh so my understanding is wrong? christians don't believe in Jesus that he died for their sins, that he was born of a virgin birth and that he was resurrected?


I don't think that you need to resort to this, as Totakeke has been civil through this whole discussion.

sorry, resort to what?


Mormons and JW's aren't christians? who knew- they think they are, lol



[edit on 28-7-2009 by lifecitizen]

reply to post by lifecitizen

-for asking why you feel the need to speak to others?

I said something for Totakeke because after the discussion that you'd had last night with him (her?), he never got to answering the question that I'd answered. I "answered" for him because, I felt that the question that you gave needed to be answered. In case you didn't see, it was appreciated.

Oh so my understanding is wrong? christians don't believe in Jesus that he died for their sins, that he was born of a virgin birth and that he was resurrected?

I didn't mean that you're understanding of basic Christian doctrine was faulty. Rather, I said that you're understanding of Totakeke being "right" and "his faith" was faulty.

sorry, resort to what?

Being snippy.

Mormons and JW's aren't christians? who knew- they think they are, lol

Just like some would say about Catholics.