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Skeptics who are skeptical just to maintain skepticism

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posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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i might be wrong but i think the Op has just used the wrong words and he really meant debunkers.

in my opinion there are different levels of skeptism and there is nothing bad about being a skeptic. i am a believer but i am also skeptical of many claims.

i think anyone that is a member of the skeptic society is just a debunker masquerading as a true skeptic.




posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
This is at least the third thread this week about the evils of skepticism. And that is not counting the threads that, while not necessarily about skepticism, take a swipe at it in the opening posts. How many do we really need? How does attacking skeptics with ad hominems advance our understanding of the UFO phenomenon?

It seems when redundant threads are created, the mods either close or merge them? Perhaps the same should be done here.


Oh...sorry if you've been insulted. But hey, its America isn't it??? The right to free speech is protected by the constitution.


Actually, in America the right to free speech only says the the government can't limit free speech. It's perfectly legal for free speech to be limited in converstations among private private individuals. For example, my boss can legally stop me from saying anything I want in the office, and the owners of ATS are legally allowed to censor what appears on their website (that's not to say that ATS should censor this thread).

...back on topic:

It seems to me that on ATS, skeptics are unfairly treated like second-class citizens by the "blind believers". The blind believers outnumber the "good and thoughtful" skeptics by such high numbers that those skeptics quickly get a "beat down" by the blind believers on some threads, even when that skeptic brings up fair and valid points.

That's simply my personal observations, for what it's worth.



[edit on 7/24/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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I think this is simple

The extreme believers and the extreme skeptics share their unwillingness to look past their point of view.

for example

An extreme believer will not consider an incident to be a natural phenomenon or manmade scenario.

An extreme skeptic will never consider an incident to be ET in origin.

Then there are those on both sides who will actually consider all alternatives, of course their opinions may lean one way or the other but they will not completely rule out the opposing opinion.



on a side note, with all of the witnesses from all walks of life. It should be an accepted belief that there are things in our skies that we "joe public" know nothing about, whether manmade or otherwise. But I am sure some will of course disagree.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 12:24 PM
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So, to sum up the original post:

"Blah, blah, blah [...] I apparently don't understand how incredibly ironic this thread is."

About right?



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


A few centuries BC Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth.

Anway, if you're getting at the dream of manned space flight to the far flung corners of our universe in the OP I can certainly understand your frustration.
We're cutting ourselves off at the knees by not investing in space programs to the maximum. Space travel is such an overwhelming challenge, the problems that it poses provides the impetus for discovering and developing the next levels of technology. If you're not, sorry that I misinterpreted.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by Geladinhu
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


Relax, bro.
Why do you care so much about all this skepticism anyway?
Are you insecure?

Btw, if you didn't notice I was being ironic on my first post.


Everything is cool, I'm definitely relaxed. Like I said, I appreciate your input, and I sensed the irony that you were putting out.

All comments are appreciated.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


Dude, your thread was lame. Get over it. You want a world where everyone believes everything then it's you that should work for Disney because you have the mind of a 5 year old.


Dude, I quit using that term (dude) once my balls dropped. I suggest you do the same. And no one here believes everything. That's just something that you came up with to counter this thread. Remember, Disney is always hiring.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Hazelnut
It appears that the skeptics are skeptical of your skepticism of their skeptical intentions here at Above Top Secret and have come out to let you know that they are skeptical of skeptics. Thanks.


I like it. That was pretty profound.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Mike_A
No I’m not talking in circles you keep changing your position. First off you’re criticizing people for not accepting the “evidence” of testimonial that aliens are visiting Earth; logically you must believe this is the case as well otherwise you share the same view as the people you’re having a go at. Now you’re saying that isn’t the case! Which is it? Either it’s right to question these people and you can take any position you like or you place your faith in their credibility, as your initial post seems to suggest we must do, and accept that what they say is true. This has nothing to do with alien agendas, reptilians, or anything other than the claims made by the credible people you mentioned.

I’m not saying you believe everything put in front of you, but your first post made it clear that you believe aliens are visiting the Earth. Is that true or not?

There are two things that I’m talking about in my post that you seem to be mixing up. The first is the illogical nature of claiming something is unknown and then giving it an explanation (even if you didn’t mean it to that is what the sentence I quoted from your first post does).

The second is the unreliable nature of any personal testimonial when it comes to scientific matters of fact, which this is; it’s not just one opinion vs. another, either you can demonstrate aliens are visiting us or you can’t.


Regardless, if there is no such thing as a credible witness to someone like yourself, then guess what...THERE MAY NEVER BE PROOF. Radar blips seem to mean nothing to the public. Video evidence seem to mean nothing as well. Credible witnesses as you say, don't even exist.


My emphasis.

This is a major mistake you are making. Construing credible witness as proof, they are not synonymous.

Credible people exist and I will listen to them but they don’t themselves prove anything. At best they can give reason for further investigation.

The thing is the credible people with regard to this aren’t saying what you seem to think they’re saying. Edgar Mitchell isn’t saying he knows that aliens are visiting us, he is saying he believes that they are; his basis for believing this is no better than any other believer. If he had said he spent time on an alien ship and backed that up with detail then it would be worth listening to. The pilot that saw a light moving at eight times the speed of sound isn’t saying he saw an alien ship, he just saw a light and we can’t give that any arbitrary explanation.

There are a few people making direct claims relating to aliens but these still need backing up. If a prominent engineer says he’s spent the last decade taking apart an alien ship then I’ll hear him out. However if he can’t demonstrate anything beyond that base claim, i.e. he can’t explain what he learned or produce any corroborating information then I’m not going to believe him.


Hell, even when physical traces of radiation and strange anomalies occur around a sighting, it still seems to mean nothing to the avid debunker.


You’re missing the point, why connect these things to aliens? Why not human craft? Why not as yet unknown forms of natural phenomenon? If you’re going to go off on a flight of fancy then why not angels or pixies? If it’s unknown and you have no further information then you can’t just make up any old explanation.








Ahhh...I get it. You need a DEFINITIVE argument from which to attack. I claim no absolutes. Therefore, everything that you're saying is groundless. You see, there are those who stand directly in the middle of issues so that they can weigh the evidence and make their own conclusions. I AM ONE OF THOSE. And no, credible witnesses don't necessarily equate to truth, however, how many people have we condemned to prison on the pretense of being identified by an eyewitness?



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by bloodline
These threads are tiring.

They seem to be written everyday and they are basically blanketted ad hominem attacks.

These threads are tiring.

Thank you,
Bloodline
Department of Redundancy Department



Get some sleep then. C-ya tomorrow.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Sam60
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 

You know exactly what you are doing. You are trying to start another long running "skeptics vs believers" argument. You believe it will get you a few flags & some attention.

We don't need another one of these threads.

The more of these threads that are started, potentially the more the wedge is driven between these parties.

Each needs the other.

Grow up & get to grips with that.


You've exposed my grand conspiracy. I'm calling the White House right now to inform them that their plan has failed. The C.I.A. will be standing down.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by Hawkwind.
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 




Wow, you really do wear your ignorance loud and proud don't you?

I put it to you that you are also a sceptic. Unless that is you believe in werewolves, fairies, father xmas, the tooth fairy, the inevitable spaghetti monster, trolls (actually, trolls are real, you're proof of that, laugh out loud), the Loch Ness monster, vampires and just about every folklore there is. If you don't believe in all of those you are also classed as a sceptic, if you do believe in all those things then see a doctor.

You seem to be obsessed with sceptics, do you have an inferiority complex or something? It doesn't seem natural. Also, because you base all your belief on heresay and testimony and do not even question what you hear I also say that you are a sheep, gullible enough to believe anything you are told.



The spaghetti monsters aren't real? That's a new one on me. Heresay and testimony for an opinion? I think that maybe you're delusional. Zoloft is an easily accessible prescription drug, and all you have to do is go to your family practitioner and beg. You should stabilize shortly.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by dna42

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
This is at least the third thread this week about the evils of skepticism. And that is not counting the threads that, while not necessarily about skepticism, take a swipe at it in the opening posts. How many do we really need? How does attacking skeptics with ad hominems advance our understanding of the UFO phenomenon?

It seems when redundant threads are created, the mods either close or merge them? Perhaps the same should be done here.


Thank you, exactly what I was thinking.
The thought that skepticism is an evil thing makes me laugh, actually.


Yes...believers are pretty sure that skeptics sit with long red robes sacrificing children to the spaghetti monster. Its a secret society that needs to be stopped!!! Your ancestry dates all the way back to when Hitler was still wearing pink stockings and failing as an art student.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by Sam60
reply to post by dna42
 

It's just attention seeking behaviour.

I don't know why we're even bothering to keep his thread alive.

I reckon the op's just laughing at us.


I reckon that you may be absolutely correct. You fell into this trap and the thread was meant to expose the insecurities of the skeptical mind. So...mission accomplished.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by dna42
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


I'm sorry to say that you are a deeply, deeply deluted and mislead human who has absolutely no grasp of reality whatsoever.


put into question the experience, research, and hard work of people who have developed a lifetime of credibility (Buzz Aldrin, Edgar Mitchell, former Presidents, politicians, countless numbers of pilots, police officers, military personnel


You can make that list 1000 names long if you wish, that doesn't make the assumption that there is alien life out there any more true. Absolutely nobody has come forward with hard evidence, I don't care how entertaining their story might be.

The only way in finding the truth is to question things down to the bottom of it and look at the facts.

Millions and millions of people believe in an invisible skygod watching over us, some of those believers call themselves christians, others muslims and so on...

But they believe. Faith is the belief in the absence of evidence.
If there's millions of people who believe they could fly like Superman I invite everybody of those to jump out the window of a skyscraper and see if gravity fails. See how many will jump. My guess is noone because they know perfectly well that adding some fairytales to reality doesn't alter reality in itself.

It is good that there is scepticism. Without it, we wouldn't have the great science we have nowadays. And scepticism has the nice side-effect of putting those off-key delusional freaks into their place to be laughted at.

The majority of people is sceptical about the existence of UFOs, at least to some point. Mind you, I'm not saying that they do not belief in the possibility that aliens fly around us but they are sceptical about it. As long as there is no hard evidence for the existence of such everybody with some common sense should be sceptical about it. It is completely moronic to just accept the claims of some persona who aren't falsifiable. That's what religion does, to control ignorant and weak-minded people. No thanks.

I'll stick to reality and to be able to grasp the beauty of reality in its entirety is the most awesome thing of all. I can still fantasize about visions I have but I would never claim them to be true unless I could prove it.

You can attack as many "sceptic" people as you want, it won't chance the fact that the public hasn't seen one solid piece of evidence to support such extraordinary claims.

I've said it before and I'll quote it again:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (Carl Sagan)

Oh and by the way...writing in capital letters doesn't help the credibility along you know. It rather looks like you are very desperate to try and prove a point which wasn't even there in the first place.

I'll rest my case.

[edit on 24-7-2009 by dna42]

[edit on 24-7-2009 by dna42]


That was a very highly intellectualized account of hmmmm...nothing. But you're helping the cause quite well. Lets see if I can counter that statement with something shorter and more to the point.

Belief is subjective. Disbelief is the same. Neither can produce evidence for their belief or lack thereof. Therefore, its a silly little circle that has all parties looking like idiots. And there is nothing wrong with capital letters. Otherwise they wouldn't have invented them.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Sam60
Watch the op blow up.....



Blowing up huge...wait, that's just because I'm holding my breath. Ahhh...much better.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by InfaRedMan
The first sign of insecurity in ones own intellect is the SHOUTING of words in the futile hope that they will somehow give their flagging argument more gravity.

I find it curious that most of these skeptic bashing threads come from new members with no established network of friends on the board. Lone gunmen that think they are saving the day by shooting verbal buckshot at illusory villains... Burning with an intense need to be someones hero... a front line soldier of UFOlogy.

Sure made me giggle!

IRM


[edit on 24/7/09 by InfaRedMan]


I could have sworn that gravity had something to do with keeping our feet on the ground so that we don't float into outer space. Saving the day??? That would imply that I'm a SUPERHERO. Well, I honestly thank you for your vote of confidence, however, I will tell you this...I'm still just human. You can worship me if you like though.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by noonebutme
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


Well, I'm a skeptical believer. By that I mean I want to believe and I think I do believe, but I will usually dismiss *most* of the images and footage I see because the vast majority of it can be explained by naturally occuring, though often rare, physical phenomena.

Now, as you painstakingly pointed out, yes there are people who will be skeptical for the sake of it and will just naysay anything to be obstinant. To that I'd say, ignore them.

But I would also say make sure you do *everything* you can to logically and rationally analyse your data to eliminate as many possible and likely probably natural phenomena before your 'believer' state-of-mind kicks in.

Just as you deride the skeptics for being intentionally skeptical, being a non-skeptical believer is just as bad. By accepting things too readily and shouting, "They're here, they're here!" from the roof tops when you see a blurry blob of light on a jpg isn't going to help our cause at all.

For the masses to take us and the 'phenomena' seriously, rational, logical and common sense analysis needs to be done. And if you already believe what you're looking at is alien or a UFO...well, guess what the analysis of your data is going to point towards?




[edit on 24-7-2009 by noonebutme]


agreed and accepted. I like your style.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 
There are times when ATS is like a petrie dish for the combined consciousness of single-celled organisms.

The 'true believers' want to live in a world of reptilians, alien agreements with shadow Govts and an Earth slap bang in the center of a galactic superhighway. WTF!? Apparently, we're all created by these aliens...some are real good and cry themselves to sleep as they look at what their 'children' are doing to their world. Some are real bad and eat our children in underground bases. The good aliens leave us post-its in farmer's fields that we can't read. Landing lights are really UFOs. Leaders are really reptilians. Real life is a hologram. Freedom is really slavery to aliens and NWO. They want to give us free energy and 'give' us world peace, but can't unless the US Govt will 'disclose.'

How do they know all this?
What is the source?
How credible is the source?
Do the ideas stand scrutiny.
Is the claimant reputable?
Do the documents have provenance?
Were other witnesses present?
Is there any other supporting evidence?
Is it a lens artifact?
Is the area on an airport flight path?
Were any astronomical causes ruled out?
Was Venus or any other planet present in the field of view?
Can satellites or the ISS be ruled out?
Is it pixellation or processing error?
Can photoshop be dismissed?
Is it possibly CGI?

These are the kind of questions that go through a skeptic's mind. They're all fair and reasonable questions that need answering. I can count on three fingers the number of skeptics in this section that appear somewhat fixated on discounting everything.

Skeptics aren't the enemy, they represent an ideal of neutrality...naturally, we all fall short of our ideals from time to time. The worst thing in UFOs is the BS merchants that sell people dreams. It's to those people that the questions above are directed. Schneider, Knell, Salas, Goodchild, Peckman, Greer, Doty and dozens of others bring the whole subject into ridicule.

The ATS skeptics are the BS Detectors for the intellectually lazy and those that are still cutting their teeth on the subject.

As a rational skeptic...here's a little secret that all good skeptics know.... You can accept the reality of UFOs without believing that EVERYTHING must be a UFO.


reply to post by InfaRedMan
WELL SAID IRM! SHOUTING ADDS TRUTH TO EVERYTHING...AND EXCLAMATION MARKS!HAHA!!!


[edit on 24-7-2009 by Kandinsky]


Hmmm...nope. I don't believe in reptilians. However, I don't dismiss them either. I have no proof that we were made by aliens, however, it seems to be just as valid as creationism, evolution, or any other hair-brained theory that we talking monkeys have come up with.j I don't necessarily believe that the U.S. or any other country is covering up information. That would imply that they actually know something. I think the last 8 years proved that the government is about in the dark as we are concerning everything.

So...I tend to agree with your last statement.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by Sol12
....

Hasn't it occurred to any debunkers/naysayers that
there may very well be a fair and logical reason
that threads like this one occur again and again?

One main problem here is the issue of debunkers/naysayers,
falsely claiming to be skeptics.

Another problem with debunkers/naysayers is that
they are seldom willing to debate on topic.

They usually only seek to zealously impose their own
personal limited understanding and logic upon others.

The problem of the debunker/naysayer is that he is not
willing to acknowledge alternative viewpoints and logic,
not even just for the sake of discussion and mutual engagement.

The biggest problem however is that the debunker/naysayer
is unable to tune in, into the feelings and thoughts of others.

He is unable to share personal opinion, in a mutual respectful way.

Whatever may exist beyond the limited periphery of
the naysayer/debunker MUST be violently opposed.

As ATS is a DISCUSSION forum, it works as a great RED flag
to see certain people being zealously occupied with
how and what other people choose to believe/know/feel?

What's up with this "thought-police" stance?

Most people come here to read, write and share according to
their own experience, as people tend to do in 'free' societies.

Debunkers/naysayers seek to create 'us' and 'them' polarity.

They team up like packs of wolves, claiming they are all 'friends'.

Very fishy indeed.

...
..
.


[edit on 24-7-2009 by Sol12]


Very eloquently stated and noted. I'm glad there are others who get this particular post.



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