Bankrupting Michigan?

I'm curious about how this would effect those who don't work full time. I've heard some have had their hours dropped. Most likely, many companies will cut peoples hours also.

Workers with only part time hours have been said in the past to not have full benefits.

My auto insurance keeps going up every 6 month and I've had to go shopping for another one. Cheaper insurance doesn't mean better coverage or quicker service either. I have thought about swtching to AARP.

I live in Michigan on SSDI and here we have no fault, which still confuses me. The thought of not having full coverage scares me, besides the thought of losing disability due to cutbacks for whatever excuse.

reply to post by Rockpuck

The only thing inflicting harm on this Republic of ours is the every reaching hand of Government. It is prevalent in all our lives, and now we are suggesting people rely on it not only for governance and order, but sustenance and survivability

I don't think you get what I'm trying to get across. Big Government is the result of big business. The 2 co-exist with one another. Big business uses our government to get what it wants by spending billions of dollars a year lobbying for what it wants...which is why ridiculous 1000 page bills continue to get passed in Congress.

Big Government is the sympton of the illness. Corporations are the ones wanting to put restrictions on the internet due to copyrights...the government itself isn't doing anything.

The government is just a working mouthpiece of corporations. Government cannot get smaller without the massive corporations being smaller. Until this happens, it won't change.

True capitalism cannot work as the end result is total control of one major entity as bigger businesses gobble up smaller ones and suffocate them.

This is part of the problem now. The entire media is owned by corporations and many people's opinions come through the lobbying on television through the corporate media.

Look at Nafta, the failure to stop illegal immigration, the war on terrorism. Nothing is being done to stop any of these things.

Who does that benefit? Americans? Hell no. It benefits the elite's and the richest/most powerful in the world.

When you preach capitalism in it's current form you support this.

I believe in the Constitution...i'm a conservative leaning guy...but I cannot ignore the obvious.

reply to post by David9176


So you wish to scrap Capitalism as Capitalism controls the Government, but to control a new Economic system to which businesses will not be able to exceed a certain profit so as to not be able to control the government, you will need an extensively powerful government to control the economy. Which, as these things always happen, one will eventually be unable to discern the difference between Economy and Government, whether one is controlling the other is matters not, ultimately business produces wealth, governments do not, and wealth will always control governments regardless if it's a single entity or a collection of entities.

Banking and Usury are the only businesses/practices I see as a threat to National Sovereignty.. I have no qualms with mega corporations, as if we don't have them someone else will. I'd rather we have them. They produce the wealth of the Nation, banks only manipulate the wealth while producing nothing.

Big business and Governments can coexist in harmony if the Government can be kept within the bounds of it's only legal authority.

It wasn't big business that ruined the Republic, it was the PEOPLE who allowed the Government to extend so far.

Isnt this state in enough trouble already.Im hoping cooler heads will prevail and the measures wont pass.If they do G*d help us.

Originally posted by mikellmikell
Not a one will make the ballot except possibly cutting utility rates then they will just add a fee to make up for it

You may be right.
But ,even if they don't make it to the ballot stage, or get voted down, it still tells me that the politicians in the State of Michigan--and I'm sure other states--are totally clueless about what to do to help correct this economic downturn.

It's like they think they can print $$ like Washington, or that Washington will have an endles supply of "stimulus" $$.

What will happen when local governments cannot meet their bills any longer. They cannot really go to Lansing.
Property tax collections are down either through non-payment, foreclosures or drops in property values.
Many localities passed laws that were great for boom times, but are going to cripple or kill them.


Utility rate cuts:
For sure, if they lower our "rates" the utilities will just tack on another fee. Like they have already done with our electric and gas rates when they were denied rate increase in the past :shk:

reply to post by Rockpuck

I have no qualms with mega corporations, as if we don't have them someone else will. I'd rather we have them.

That's the thing...we DON'T have them. Everything is international now which is why no one does anythign about nafta nor do they try to raise import tariffs to protect American workers.

You should have problems with mega corporations as their opinion has far more sway than your opinion or mine...nor anyone else for that matter who doesn't have a few million to throw around to Congressman.

Any entity that carries this much power and sway on the world is not for the individual and their rights.

I used to think exactly as you do now...I just can't do it anymore. For as much as everyone think Obama is trying to be some crazy dictator...it's simply not true. Obama cannot do anything without the will of the banks and corporate power.....that's the entire reason he is in office.

Small business will never thrive when the largest corporations can drive prices down so low that it drives others out of business. It becomes monopolistic...especially since this country no longer enforces anti-trust laws.

Things are the way they are for a reason...it didn't start with Obama....he's just escalating it.

It's not Progressivism....it's not Conservatism......these ideals are not what have caused the ills of this country.

It's corporatism.

reply to post by Rockpuck

So you wish to scrap Capitalism as Capitalism controls the Government, but to control a new Economic system to which businesses will not be able to exceed a certain profit so as to not be able to control the government, you will need an extensively powerful government to control the economy.

And i don't wish for capitalism to be scrapped....but it needs to be "capped" to limit corporate power's influence on the American public....but this also needs to be enforced on government itself or it will never work.

One does not need to believe in true capitalism to believe in the Constitution and individual rights.

Corporations should never have been given the same rights of an individual..unfortunately they do...yet many in this people don't have equal rights themselves....real people.

reply to post by DontTreadOnMe


And not to mention the Municipal Bond market imploded last October and has not had an ounce of life blown back into by the so called recovery. With states issuing IOU's and talking about extended deficits.. it's potentially financial suicide to buy a Municipal Bond.

Minimum Wage should only ever be raised during times of extensive inflation like we saw between 2001-2008 .. in times of economic stagflation and deflation, raising the minimum wage to decimate the economy. Raising the minimum wage's only purpose is to protect lower earners from having their quality of living deteriorate from the rising costs of living. It should NEVER be used as an economic stimulus. Raise the Minimum Wage by $3 and everyone making $10+ an hour just took a $3/hr pay cut.. knocking out half of Michigan's lower middle class.

Then again the leadership in Michigan has been anything but inspirational. The fact that they can even make it to work has me impressed enough, but I wouldn't hold my breath on intelligent decisions. A few years ago the wisdom from up North came to Ohio in the form of bill boards plastered all over the state advising Ohioans if we really wanted to see a big lake and some golf courses we should go to Michigan. Way to go Michigan, spending billions advising Ohioans to go see.... the other side of lake Erie...

reply to post by David9176

That's the thing...we DON'T have them. Everything is international now which is why no one does anythign about nafta nor do they try to raise import tariffs to protect American workers.

Yes, this is true. But who let the government open our borders and allow "free" trade? WE DID. The people. It's our job to control our government, it's not some divine law that we should set the rules and expect the Government to abide, or let alone businesses. You don't have to change anything about our capitalist system, you only need to change the Government. Easy solution: End free trade. Every corporation that spent their coffers on moving to China, Taiwan, Indonesia and Japan will be slaughtered financially when they are forced to pay a steep tariff to import back to their home country.

You should have problems with mega corporations as their opinion has far more sway than your opinion or mine...nor anyone else for that matter who doesn't have a few million to throw around to Congressman.

Easy solution: End political donations. the Government can offer every individual who can gather enough signatures a set allowance. No more spending millions on smear add campaigns or thousand dollar dinners at corporate clubs.

Any entity that carries this much power and sway on the world is not for the individual and their rights.

Problem with your theory. End mega corporations and you will have unions of small merchants combining power and controlling the government anyways. Business is a vital aspect of any Nation, and regardless of the economy, be it Socialist, Fascist, Communist, Capitalist, or even Merchantalism (which is what you're suggesting) has always had sway over the Government. As a Republic we had the ability to say the Federal Government only made Interstate commands over the economy, now however DC can control anything and everything. Wasn't the businesses that did this, but apathetic citizens We deserve what we get.

Things are the way they are for a reason...it didn't start with Obama....he's just escalating it.

no, it started in 1787 when the Constitution was ratified. Ever since then our Governments regardless of political party has sought to find loop holes or else disregard entirely the document. Instead of electing officials who seek to protect the Republic from the powers of Centralized Government, we elect protagonist and sympathizers of the system to watch over the government.. They in turn don't represent they respected states, they represent the Federal Government, they seek to vote away their powers in a circle of self destruction .. a political system that literally seeks annihilation from the inside out.

One does not need to believe in true capitalism to believe in the Constitution and individual rights.

True, the Constitution does not say "America's economy shall be Capitalism" .. But to have the Government interject it's self without oversight into the economy .. you end up with the BS Obama and Bush have done .. owning banks and car companies. If you say well we will control the Government and not allow it to reach that level.. I say, if we controlled government in the first place, corporations wouldn't have high-jacked out country!

reply to post by Rockpuck


I agree with much of what you stated....believe me...I wish things were different. I wish you were working. I wish you weren't burning up your savings. I hate the fact that people are getting screwed while the rich continue to build up their coffers. Private banking is a major problem and is really enemy number one to the American public.

I know you say that it's the publics fault. The problem is that it's hard for people to get the truth when they are railed with lies and propaganda 24/7 from all news outlets. This has happened since the creation of our country. If the people are misled and deceived anything can be done...as long as TPTB tell them it's needed.

People are only waking up now because of the internet and they can get information they would never get otherwise. Imagine if we didn't have this outlet right now?

Very few would know what is happening. As things continue to get worse...more will wake up.

Also, just wanted to add that I am enjoying this conversation.

Appreciate it.

reply to post by Rockpuck

End mega corporations and you will have unions of small merchants combining power and controlling the government anyways. Business is a vital aspect of any Nation, and regardless of the economy, be it Socialist, Fascist, Communist, Capitalist, or even Merchantalism (which is what you're suggesting) has always had sway over the Government.

Not necessarily....eliminate lobbying...eliminate corporate campaign donations and make it all public funding....end the "2 party" political system and make people vote on the merits of those running for office instead of enabling them to vote R's or D's across the board....enact term limits for all congressman and their STAFF...their staff is vital as those are the ones who actually right the bills which the Congressman don't even read!....which by the way is completely influenced by lobbyist.

Business is vital to any country...absolutely true....but it should not dictate how people run their own lives.

Business is as much of a threat to individual rights as our government and should be taken as such.

reply to post by David9176

I know you say that it's the publics fault. The problem is that it's hard for people to get the truth when they are railed with lies and propaganda 24/7 from all news outlets. This has happened since the creation of our country. If the people are misled and deceived anything can be done...as long as TPTB tell them it's needed.

It IS the public's fault. It's their fault they let the propaganda control them. It's their fault they act like children and need the Nanny State to look out for them. It's THEIR fault they are to weak to take destiny in their own hands.

Thousands of years ago there was a man far wiser than any man who ever lived. Socrates stated that Democracy will ultimately fail, it's principle necessity is that Democracy demands the attention and wills of the public.. however, the public would prefer the political system operate without their concerns..

People are to ignorant to rule themselves. And because of this all Democracies will eventually end in tyranny. People need control.

I am a Libertarian, I believe in the Constitution and the Rule of People. Sadly I also recognize people will never successfully govern themselves.

Also, just wanted to add that I am enjoying this conversation.

As am I!

reply to post by David9176


One step further: End political parties all together. Outlaw them. Then there is no centralized formation of political ideologies. Take it even further. Term limits.. A Congress person and a Senator should not be allowed to serve more than one term.

In Athens every citizen was expected to serve in the government at least once.. that cannot happen in America as we are a Country not a City State, but regardless, one term and your done, it would keep a cycle of fresh ideas flowing into our capital, and it would eliminate institutionalized corruption -- which is what we have.

reply to post by Rockpuck

One step further: End political parties all together. Outlaw them. Then there is no centralized formation of political ideologies. Take it even further. Term limits.. A Congress person and a Senator should not be allowed to serve more than one term.

Absolutely agree with you here...as I stated in my prior post. People keep stating that we need more third parties...I used to as well...but that does nothing but allow people to continue to be lazy on who they vote for.

The staffers of politicians also need to have "time limits" as well...as those are the people actually writing the bills.

People do need some form of control as you stated...and by that I mean society has to have structure.

People cannot prosper without some form of control/protection. People cannot be truly free with anarchism.

Limited government...limited power...IMO it's the best way to keep society structured....people just have to keep tabs on it or things end up like they are now....

S****y.

reply to post by David9176


I know what you mean about the third parties... of course, the biggest problem is if we vote for third parties, ONE party ends up in power ... like our situation now.

I wanted to vote more conservative, so I voted Constitutional/Libertarian. And now I am being governed by Fascist and Communist. Irony.

reply to post by Rockpuck


And I would say the only form of government that historically has ever worked for both the State and the People is Enlightened Monarchies. The greatest leaders of the past governed with firm but fair hands, though often they never sought power for powers sake, it was thrust upon them. But we don't remember those men and women, we only memorialize the tyrants and murderers. I think we might just be a destructive species.

But there, I said it, I am truly a Monarchist!

reply to post by DontTreadOnMe


At least up to day about 16 states in the nation are running of money due to less income generated taxes, after all 44% of taxable income was lost last year, this year will be worst.

Government programs will be the first ones to fill the pinch, while the federal government keeps reassuring the people in the nation that taxes will not be raised that doesn't mean that states are to do the same.

Still the problem with many states is just like the federal government the have unsustainable budgets and big governments.

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

So you wish to scrap Capitalism as Capitalism controls the Government, but to control a new Economic system to which businesses will not be able to exceed a certain profit so as to not be able to control the government, you will need an extensively powerful government to control the economy.

And i don't wish for capitalism to be scrapped....but it needs to be "capped" to limit corporate power's influence on the American public....but this also needs to be enforced on government itself or it will never work.

One does not need to believe in true capitalism to believe in the Constitution and individual rights.

Corporations should never have been given the same rights of an individual..unfortunately they do...yet many in this people don't have equal rights themselves....real people.

Capitalism, by definition, is not the problem and needs neither to be capped, or scrapped. The problems argued by you both, correctly I might add, are symptoms of it's corruption. Methods adopted that go against everything free enterprise stands to oppose.

cap⋅i⋅tal⋅ism   /ˈkæpɪtlˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm]

–noun
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism encourages private investment and business, compared to a government-controlled economy. Investors in these private companies (i.e. shareholders) also own the firms and are known as capitalists.

In such a system, individuals and firms have the right to own and use wealth to earn income and to sell and purchase labor for wages with little or no government control. The function of regulating the economy is then achieved mainly through the operation of market forces where prices and profit dictate where and how resources are used and allocated. The U.S. is a capitalistic system.
dictionary.reference.com...

The only interference allotted by its rules are the naturally occurring fluctuations to pricing and goods. This simplicity is what makes capitalism so brilliant, as well as fool proof. Once corruption becomes involved, as is today, we can no longer call it free market capitalism.

The shame in our current economy should be hung on corruption, not capitalism. And not exactly directed at big business, but at those allowing big business to practice these anti capitalist methods freely. That leaves only our regulatory agency to be held accountable. This is simply the governments failure to provide oversight. Government has failed capitalism, not due to their involvement in it, but due to their non involvement in the role required of them.

This proves of them three things; 1) failure to provide oversight and regulation; 2) criminal involvement leading to corruption; 3) corruption directly causing economic collapse. Our governments, conscious, criminal activity should be held responsible for all aspects of Americas current economic crisis! They have failed miserably at their minimal required role and are solely to blame for all aspects of it. They alone destroyed this economy, corporations only took advantage.

I also agree with you both that a third political party is the only answer. I would only take it a step further by demanding the Dem/Rep two party fraud be completely abolished! Along with them any and all forms of lobbying and corporate campaign funding, as well as creation of a maximum allowed campaign fund total? A limited and realistic dollar amount for all candidates to use at their discretion? Basic fairness for all? How has this become so unrealistic?

Peace.

reply to post by DontTreadOnMe

Property tax collections are down either through non-payment, foreclosures or drops in property values.

I keep trying to bring this very thing up in conversation. Why are these lenders not liable for, at very least, some portion of the private property expenses required to citizens? After acquiring this land through foreclosure, they receive sole ownership of this property. Land ownership comes with many legal responsibilities regarding maintenance, as well as taxation.

We as citizens are held without exception to these demands, even paying them fully while not holding majority ownership? Why are lenders holding these properties not obligated to the same? Why shouldn't they pay property taxes, as well as necessary upkeep and maintenance? If I let my grass grow out of control, I will be warned by the city to cut it. Told they will, by a certain date, have it done by an outside source and billed to me? This expense would eventually be attached to my property via a lien if not paid?

Why are the banks not held to these legalities as we are? Because it's crooked, that's why! Because rules and regulations are only forced upon the little guy in a corrupt system such as ours.

Utility rate cuts: For sure, if they lower our "rates" the utilities will just tack on another fee. Like they have already done with our electric and gas rates when they were denied rate increase in the past

To increase our natural gas costs in Michigan they attached a new fee for delivery of the gas to your address? The charge is equal to the current monthly gas amount. If your bill was $165.86 for gas this month, you were also charged $165.86 for delivery! My average gas bill went from $3500.00 to over $10,000.00 per month at my business? Raising heating gas rates then doubling them, this alone would have put me out of business if there hadn't been so many other factors doing so!

What's really sad though is the fact most people either don't know this is happening, or refuse to believe it's even possible? Mention of this is met with bewilderment where people have know inherent way to respond? So they basically panic and flee the situation completely? This postpones, or even prevents these things from being properly discussed? Just more fuel on the fire!

Peace.