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Bankrupting Michigan?

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posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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Calling it an effort to go "to bat for the people of this state", Michigan Democrats are attempting to raise the minimum age to $10.00 and hour, increase unemployment benefits by $100 per week and other measures aimed at "helping" Michigan during these tough economic times.
We already have the highest unemployment in the nation, lots of foreclosures, and more and more empty storefronts as small businesses go out of business.

What in the world are these legislators thinking?
Sure, I'd like to make $10 an hour, but businesses that are struggling now would fold: there won't be anybody left to hire me or anyone else. These same businesses will likely be under even more pressure to stay afloat if healthcare becomes mandatory.
Sure, I'd like to make that much more in unemployment bennies, but will pay for these upgraded amounts?


The Michigan Democratic Party is considering asking voters to raise the state's minimum wage from the current $7.40 an hour to a national high of $10 an hour, increase unemployment benefits and require all employers to provide health coverage.

Other proposals floated Wednesday would cut utility rates by 20 percent and impose a one-year moratorium on home foreclosures. Democrats will research the five proposals and survey party members before deciding which ones to attempt placing on the November 2010 ballot, state party chairman Mark Brewer said.

Michigan Dems may seek $10 minimum wage in 2010

Seems like an attempt to financially doom Michigan




posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:14 PM
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Not a one will make the ballot except possibly cutting utility rates then they will just add a fee to make up for it



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:23 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by DontTreadOnMe
 


Oh lord.....

Here goes politicians trying to "fix" things. Have you noticed the disturbing trend that all politicians no how to do is tax and spend money.

So lets levy higher wages on business in an attempt to bring business back to Michigan. I agree with mikellmikell that they will cut the utility rates, but they will end up raising taxes in order to make up for it.

I don't think they are purposely doing it, I just think most of the politicians don't understand how business works, they think its just another bottomless pocket to pick from.

Sucks though.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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If I have to raise my wages to $10.00 an hour for my biz, which yes, I hire only at minimum wage, I can tell you two things for sure. One is that I will be raising my prices to cover that and two, I will be hiring fewer people and expecting them work even harder. The end result is that I will have fewer customers due to the price increase I pass along and give less service as I expect every 2 employees to do the work of three. Not a pretty scenario for anyone.

I don't get how politicians think they can keep raising taxes and wage mandating to all businesses and expect them to be successful.

Oh, that's right, most politicians have never owned their own business. What a surprise there.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:34 PM
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They won't go out of business at all. They will do as my friend above suggests. They will make the lucky folks who work for them work harder and raise the prices the public pay for their services. They will do this until the law of diminishing returns takes them out of business (not the min wage law). Of course the right solution was for the boss to drive a Ford instead of a Mercades.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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I look at this as a last ditch effort by the incompetent Michigan politicians to try to legislate their way out of the financial crisis. Just another way for them to stick it to the Michigan taxpayer - as if things weren't crappy enough.

Despite the downturn, the State of Michigan managed to suck the taxpayer dry again:

www.michigan.gov...

Nothing like collecting $26 Billion dollars from your constituents IN A SINGLE YEAR, and revenues of $42 billion total between taxes, fees, Federal agencies, etc. and STILL having a budget shortfall at the end of the year.

How can you overspend $42 BILLION in revenue?

I would say that the State of Michigan government is faring quite well - Too well, in fact.

Any government entity that can collect this kind of revenue in a single year is hardly hurting. Too bad the Michigan taxpayers don't vote these crooks out of office.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by DontTreadOnMe
 





Sure, I'd like to make $10 an hour, but businesses that are struggling now would fold: there won't be anybody left to hire me or anyone else. These same businesses will likely be under even more pressure to stay afloat if healthcare becomes mandatory. Sure, I'd like to make that much more in unemployment bennies, but will pay for these upgraded amounts?


I live in Michigan as well. Didn't know about this though..glad you posted it. Many of the businesses here start out at 10 dollars an hour already...and those who don't are mostly grocery stores and gas stations. I dont' think this will change much to be honest.

As for unemployment, try to live off of it. It's not possible if you are single and own a home or have car payments...that is if you want to eat. Just imagine if you have kids to feed.

I understand the deficit is horrible...the state is bankrupt and a complete mess....but unemployment benefits....the more the better to keep people afloat. It's just unfortunate that people abuse it...I know someone personally that has. Sat on it for the max without looking for a single job and now he's worried as it's about ready to run out.

I don't feel sorry for people like that...for those trying to make it though and get back on track....they need help...and they should get it.

Maybe if they took some of the 24 trillion dollars given to tarp they could help these people out.

The banks get anything they want...while the rest of the people suffer. It's not right.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:31 PM
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$10 an hour??!????

Good lord..

Are they trying to attract the nations best hamburger flippers?? Small Businesses would be wiped out over night if that happened..

I honestly don't see how either of those measures will pass.. but then again, with so many unemployed.. wouldn't surprise me..

And honestly, the cost of living in Michigan is not that high at all to warrant such a massive increase in the Min. Wage..



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 




As for unemployment, try to live off of it. It's not possible if you are single and own a home or have car payments...that is if you want to eat. Just imagine if you have kids to feed.


Try living without it?

Unemployed 7 months, not a single unemployment check. Lived off savings and the income of my significant other.. I have a tent and a nice bridge picked out to live under if we get evicted.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:43 PM
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Unemployment benefits in times of recession with all the money government spend in the overinflated states budget they are indeed going to bankrupt the state.

Extending the benefits only will force the state into cutting more state government programs.

Is that good? it depends in which side of the programs you are, if you are on welfare you may no agree but if you are unemployed receiving unemployment benefits you may agree with open arms.


Still at the end of the day everybody will be a loser if the economic situation doesn't get any better.

[edit on 23-7-2009 by marg6043]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by pavil
If I have to raise my wages to $10.00 an hour for my biz, which yes, I hire only at minimum wage, I can tell you two things for sure. One is that I will be raising my prices to cover that and two, I will be hiring fewer people and expecting them work even harder. The end result is that I will have fewer customers due to the price increase I pass along and give less service as I expect every 2 employees to do the work of three. Not a pretty scenario for anyone.

I don't get how politicians think they can keep raising taxes and wage mandating to all businesses and expect them to be successful.

Oh, that's right, most politicians have never owned their own business. What a surprise there.


Or you could make money by not raising your prices and keeping on 3 people thus giving your business the best prices and customer service compared to your competition. In doing so you will drive more volume to your business to more then make up for the increase in wages. Your line of thinking is a common mistake that will be made though and it makes for a downward spiral.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 





Unemployed 7 months, not a single unemployment check. Lived off savings and the income of my significant other.. I have a tent and a nice bridge picked out to live under if we get evicted.


Right...but many people don't have savings...just debt. I know quite a few couples that have both lost their jobs and they are looking like mad to find something...but no one is hiring.

I wouldn't pitch a tent by the way....if I were you I'd take a trip to the Fed and see if they could print you up a few million...maybe they can scathe a few from the top from TARP.

This is my problem...while I realize this will bankrupt the state even more...and Michigan has been in trouble for a very long time...how can I say that people should suffer when others at the top are still living in the lap of luxury.

It's the same thing with wallstreet....people banking on unemployment numbers and company bankruptcies. It's not right....in reality it's criminal to profit off of the demise of others....yet even people who post on ATS do it.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 




how can I say that people should suffer when others at the top are still living in the lap of luxury.


Here I thought you were a Constitutional man.

Capitalism nor does the Constitution guarantee "Luxury". Or even financial stability. If you loose your job, and you have no savings, it shouldn't be left to the State to pay for you. People living off unemployment for 79 freaking weeks David. SEVENTY NINE WEEKS. The ONLY thing that does is build dependency on a corrupt system. Then these people have the nerve to expect further payments, or feel like they are being robbed when the checks stop coming.

Lost your job and all you had was debt? too bad. Lost your house and your car? To bad. Find a charity, not the Government.

Never thought I'd see you say something like that David.. Should the wealthy just begin writing personal checks to the poor? Cut out the middle man? Half the ideology of Capitalism is someone will always capitalize off another persons misfortune.

[edit on 7/23/2009 by Rockpuck]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 





Here I thought you were a Constitutional man.


I am....but you fail to see that most laws passed in Congress benefit worldwide corporations...which is why Nafta still remains...which is why we are still at war.

The only Democracy left in our government is for corporations and bankers.....the constitution only works for them.

True capitalism cannot work....but neither can true socialism...as both lead to power moving to the top.

Businesses are not people. Our government is too large because big business is too large. Corporate power lobbies for the laws enforced upon us.

--------

"Find a charity, not a government?"

How in the hell is someone supposed to think that while they see banks coffers being filled to the brim? How can they say that while we spend trillions of dollars on a never ending war? How can they say that when we give billions of dollars to other countries?

I thought YOU were for the Constitution. I cannot in good conscience support something that inflicts harm on others in this country. Capitalism needs a cap....but so does government.

Big business and big government are one in the same....until they are both broken down to size...our Constitution cannot work...it's not working now and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

The middle class doesn't even exist anymore Rockpuck. It's gone.

Who's fault is it?

The government? Or was it those who lobbied the government that put us in this situation?

Think about it.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 05:08 PM
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I think what's causing the confusion is the fact that our system of free market capitalism is broken and unfair? Free market only works when you stick to its rules. In order to compete fairly you need as close to a level playing field as possible. This is the only role the government should play. Provide the oversight and regulation necessary to maintain fair competition, nothing more. The struggle begins when these overseers sell out their integrity to the highest bidder. Kickbacks and corrupt courts mean justice belongs to only those able to afford it, while the little guys are pushed around and stripped to the bone. This corruption ultimately leads to the big devouring the small.

Legislators now only create advantages for the mega corps. and banks, which turns into exactly what we have now. Obscene bank fees, penalties and runaway interest rates combined with skyrocketing utility expenses result in destruction to all the little fish. Fraud and illegal repossession become something you hope stays off your radar because you can't afford protection from it. All the rules and regulations suddenly apply only to some, while others are immune and violate laws for the advantages afforded them.

This is the situation causing chaos in the free market today. Our system has never been even close to fair, but it's also never been close to this! Fraud is rampant and goes unchecked. Monopolies and collusion riddle the current economy. If that wasn't bad enough, they went and put the big "bailout" cherry on top making fairness impossible for those needing it most. Stimulus money, bailouts, collusion and monopolizing go against everything the market capitalism system is all about! It's equivalent to a dagger in the heart of free enterprise. I don't know how you can see it any other way?

Peace.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by whoshotJR

Or you could make money by not raising your prices and keeping on 3 people thus giving your business the best prices and customer service compared to your competition. In doing so you will drive more volume to your business to more then make up for the increase in wages. Your line of thinking is a common mistake that will be made though and it makes for a downward spiral.


You must be a politician......

So lets see..... I don't raise my prices but increase my Labor costs by 30% while more business will come to my doors because I charge less than my competition. There are plenty of businesses who have tried that route and just drove themselves into the ground, I used to work at some that did just that. Try telling your superior why you are running 30% more in labor costs that the other guy, see how far that gets you.

Bottom line anyway volume you do, it's cuts into my profit, which is why I am in business. I know that is a shock to some, but I actually like to make a good amount money running my business. Instead of giving out bonuses this year, if I am forced to pay $10/hr, I will forgo that incentive. One way or another, I will manage my labor to get the desired result.

I make a decent profit, but it is based on me working hard already and paying the costs I am accustomed to. I have already had my fixed costs go up this year for my location by about 12.5%. Add the extra wages on it becomes me just surviving rather than growing. I will double my growth this next year, but where I would reinvest and add a second location with the money I will make, I will probably just keep my one location. So instead of employing 32 people, I will employ probably a few less than I did last year, 13 instead of 16. And I can tell you, my second location WON'T be in Michigan if that law passes.

It will not have the desired effect (more jobs with better pay). I'm starting to feel like Joe the plumber. I'm the one who started this business and stuck my neck out, I want to benefit from my business, not become just another employee. And we haven't' even talked about the costs involved with healthcare and Cap and Trade.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by damwel
Of course the right solution was for the boss to drive a Ford instead of a Mercades.
\

Never have bought a foreign car All GM or Chysler, unless you want to count my Geo Metro.......49 MPG city and 52 HWY and now everyone is happy a hybrid gets that..... I had my Geo about 10 years ago!



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


No one knows this more than I, but still, I do not believe the Government should play ANY role in the economy.. This includes the nefarious bank bail outs, corporate loans and international globalism.. it also includes Government work programs, Government social programs, Government welfare programs.

It was one thing when the States dictated how long unemployment lasted (26 weeks) .. it's quite another when the FEDERAL Government steps in and turns 26 weeks into 79 weeks for the sake of "propping" the economy on crutches. Did it solve ANYTHING? NO .. it certainly DID NOT. It may have kept people in their homes for another 79 months, only to roll off benefits with no jobs that will push the economy into another bout of violent seizures. GOVERNMENTS cannot stop the economy from correction .. and corrections in economies involve wide spread poverty and chaos for a time. People in the past delt with it as best they could, understanding the nature of economics. To attempt to halt this natural cycle, to attempt to alter it, mitigate it.. you only push it off to another time period, and will result in an even more large scale collapse than if you would have left it alone!

Take a family and have the government paying them for 79 weeks, then take the funds away and let them wallow in self pity and anger at being deserted by their government. Then the Government can step in with new wide spreading powers and abilities in the name of saving the people, for your own good they will say, and the people once dependent on the Government for sustance will accept it without a second thought!



I thought YOU were for the Constitution. I cannot in good conscience support something that inflicts harm on others in this country. Capitalism needs a cap....but so does government.


An oxymoron. To cap the movements of Capitalism is to grant the Government increasing powers over the economy. To grant power over the economy is to grant power over the People, over the business structures, and ultimately a large part of our lives. You cannot CAP Government and then turn around and tell the Government to CAP the economy!

The only thing inflicting harm on this Republic of ours is the every reaching hand of Government. It is prevalent in all our lives, and now we are suggesting people rely on it not only for governance and order, but sustenance and survivability. And what will occur when the economy in it's capitalist form can no longer efficiently function in the Global market due to the heavy burden of Fascism David? Will the Government require hours of labor per dollar granted via "unemployment"? Perhaps the government could establish the factories and the businesses to which we can all be employed, "public works" and industrial programs will be created, and what for those removed from the private realty markets due to their hard times? Why, lets have the Government build apartment complexes where we can all have a place to live, a place to work, and food to eat .. all from the Governments hand. All "For your own good" .. because we as rational Human beings would never allow free market capitalism in our society again, not when it can reduce people to poverty overnight... Read my signature:

"A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government strong enough to take everything you have!" -- Thomas Jefferson.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by pavil
If I have to raise my wages to $10.00 an hour for my biz, which yes, I hire only at minimum wage, I can tell you two things for sure. One is that I will be raising my prices to cover that and two, I will be hiring fewer people and expecting them work even harder. The end result is that I will have fewer customers due to the price increase I pass along and give less service as I expect every 2 employees to do the work of three. Not a pretty scenario for anyone.

I don't get how politicians think they can keep raising taxes and wage mandating to all businesses and expect them to be successful.

Oh, that's right, most politicians have never owned their own business. What a surprise there.


They have not experienced the problems for themselves so they don't know what to do about it, yet they are given the authority to proceed anyway based on their position in office which was gained by who they know......

Does everyone see this.........

" Lets take people who don't know what the hell they are doing, who don't know how to manage money, and let them manage everybody's money ! "

That is the worst idea ever, yet they keep having each others backs on it because they are all douches.....



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