Stone Age Murder: Spear Wound Shows Human Killed Neanderthal

reply to post by IDK88

My post was based on the analysis that the article itself contains Biblical or Religious type references.

The Spear (As in the Spear of Destiny)
The Wound near the Left 9th Rib of the victim (As in the wound Jesus received or the opening in Adam's side from which Eve was taken)
The Event occurs in Northern Iraq (Mesopotamia, the cradle of Civilization)

You do realize that this kind of 'analysis' is crazy, don't you? It's on a level with the ravings of lunatics who see Cabalistic signs in the layout of Washington, D.C. fire hydrants.

Someone asked why is this even news (the Article)...

It is news because it is the first evidence ever found for a Homo sapiens deliberately killing a Neanderthal. It is of interest because the two species were contemporaries whose ranges overlapped, but the Neanderthals disappeared and we didn't, and no-one really knows why. One obvious possibility is that we exterminated them (now there's an 'original sin' to make any biblethumper's eyes water) and this finding speaks, or appears to speak, to that possibility.

reply to post by Astyanax


You do know that participating in a web forum such as ATS may get you branded as crazy? On the level of lunatics that post on message boards all over the world. One of the first Spanish words I ever learned was "loco". Apparently, I've been crazy for well over 30 years. My craziness means that I often see things that other people do not. My degrees and financial stability means that my craziness is manageable.

I was telling a woman last year that I was having problems with the last Shah of Iran's son and she called me crazy...she's in prison now. As it seems, crazy people must be a step ahead of the sane.

I don't want to stop your crusade against crazy people...so please fight on.

Is it also crazy that people think the motion of the stars and planets have meaning in our everyday lives? Is it crazy to suggest that all matter is actually composed of tiny subatomic particles without having a powerful microscope available? I think so...for a person like you just about everything would be crazy...next please.

Look...the Pope is about to die...that is why the story appeared. Not for the reasons you think. He probably won't make it to the end of the year. I wanted to build up a little story, but you guys put a stop to that.

[edit on 28-7-2009 by IDK88]

reply to post by Kandinsky


Hi Kandinsky.

Interesting what you mentioned...
Book Excerpt (p. null04)
DUALISM
The Original Sin of Cognitivism
William R. Uttal
Arizona State UniversityDUALISM

The Shanidar Neanderthals are intriguing mysteries. A lot of information has been gained from the remains, but it's hard to put it in context. Some bones were broken and others had markings of stone blades.

Sounds some type of ritual?
I remember reading something like this, but I can't find anything.
(my computer is playing up and I cant get to many links)

If you just googled Sanidar Neander....

Although I dont believe the theory of thousand of Years old ...NO FACTS are given to prove they are indeed THAT OLD!
Besides that, this is quite interesting reading.

A member here also mentioned about 'SPear wounds' ?
This pretty much explains other theories that Ritual murders have been performed on humans...to mimic Christs Crucifixion ...

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by IDK88
That's the question I was answering. Knowing what kind of weapons early humans used is trivia...this threads are Above Top Secret.

Look...the Pope is about to die...that is why the story appeared. Not for the reasons you think. He probably won't make it to the end of the year. I wanted to build up a little story, but you guys put a stop to that.

You are aware that this thread is on the 'Science and Technology' board, right?

reply to post by helen670
I won't dispute the age of the Neanderthals at Shanidar...we're unlikely to come to any agreement on that point

Still, as you say, they are very interesting from a ritual point of view. The remains were discovered buried in a cave. We could attribute burial as a precaution to avoid predatory scavengers being attracted to the location...but it's more interesting than that.

One of the bodies was found beneath a small pile of stones (grave marker) and another was found to have been buried with flowers and herbs (grave goods)...Psychology, Religion and Spirituality. Both of these findings indicate ritual, conscience and a concept of an afterlife.

Perhaps more interestingly, the first Shanidar Neanderthal to be discovered was in a sorry state. He'd suffered from ill health, physical handicaps from childhood and survived a couple of serious head injuries. His age at death was estimated as around 40ya. Not bad? What this implies is that he'd been allowed to live by the support of those around him. His survival at that period is testament to assistance from others. Predators always pick out the weakest and most vulnerable member of a herd or group. Weak members are left to fend for themselves too. Neither of these things were allowed to happen in his case. It indicates that Neanderthals had a morality, a spirituality and an enviable life span considering the dangers...

In regards to ancient ritual killings, I wrote a thread that died in anonymity about the widespread ritual murders and killings that covered Europe from ancient times...Ancient Crimes and Sacrifices you might find it interesting if you blow the dust off it first

reply to post by Kandinsky


Hi Kadinsky/

Yes, ritual murders...Another 'Dying' thread!

I actually replied to one similar, but seemed to have missed yours!
Here is another DYING thread ---quite interesting.

I will take a look at your link, thanks!

ICXC NIKA
helen

All of you need to read the account of ibn Fadaln (dunno spelling) an Arab who encountered the Norsemen, and they took him up to Norway and were at war with the neanderthals (sasquatch).

I think you will find it very intriguing (unless its just me because I love my family history) it shows they used stone tools and could ride horses, had customs (such as leaving no dead bodies behind, they did all possible to bring their dead back) and worshipped bears for some reason (some wore bear heads into battle!). And they had some sort of cries that could be called almost speech.

I figured this could also explain the gods. For example Thor uses Mjolnir to slay the frost giants (yeti in the frost?) and I think it is possible they could have been simply people who kicked ass. I mean whoever is saving you from hairy giants who eat your peoples brains and dismember others for fun, you are going to be grateful to. Praise Odin!

reply to post by Wildbob77


This is what I would refer to a species upgrade, physiologically and biologically, it has the advantage to adapt to its surroundings. I wrote some about this that they fought each other one wiped out the other. It's interesting to finally find out (us aliens) took out the outdated humans. Or should I say primative man.

One prototype for another. What we may call human from a hundred to two hundred years from now maybe far from human. More in the range of superhuman.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Human society as a concept is scientific and technological. What we believe and the world we live in are linked. As our beliefs and understanding change, so does the world. Cause and effect or Causality.

Having a deeper understanding of the story, why it appeared and what it means can change how you view the world and your place in it, inevitably causing a change in the world itself, for better or worse.

And no I didn't know this was the Science and Technology forum...perhaps it should be moved somewhere else.

reply to post by IDK88

Look...the Pope is about to die... He probably won't make it to the end of the year.

Ah, a hostage to fortune. If you're still here at the end of the year, I will bring it out and shoot it on this thread for all to see.

I wanted to build up a little story, but you guys put a stop to that.

Yes, interactive forums are a drag like that.

Good to hear about your degrees and 'financial stability', though. That must be nice for you. Well-deserved compensation for having to put up with hearing the word 'loco' for thirty years.

[edit on 28/7/09 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by Ridhya
All of you need to read the account of ibn Fadaln (dunno spelling) an Arab who encountered the Norsemen, and they took him up to Norway and were at war with the neanderthals (sasquatch).

Now I know this tale from Eaters of the Dead/13th Warrior. A quick look to wiki...quick source, forgive me...tells me that while the character of Ahmad ibn Fadlan and his journey to the Land of the Rus was indeed real, the rest of the story is Michael Crichton's melding of the story with the legend of Beowolf.

So I'm uncertain as to how much of this tale, Ridhya, you can take to the bank.

Originally posted by IDK88
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

...And no I didn't know this was the Science and Technology forum...perhaps it should be moved somewhere else.

I will respectfully submit that it is exactly where it ought to be. It is your interpretation that truly deserves its own thread on another board.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


My theory that a CroMagnon murdering a Neanderthal has a direct effect on the world you live in today is scientific enough I think...following the cause and effect principle.

But you are free to complain to the Mods if what I am writing offends you.

Originally posted by IDK88
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

My theory that a CroMagnon murdering a Neanderthal has a direct effect on the world you live in today is scientific enough I think...following the cause and effect principle.

In terms of the Butterfly Effect...who knows? Does it become an analogue for bible stories? A secret message by the researchers? Why not write them and ask? You'll find contact information right here:
fds.duke.edu...
Or is the principal investigator part of the conspiracy? Let us know how that works out, please?

But you are free to complain to the Mods if what I am writing offends you.

Just because I figure you're wrong doesn't mean I take offence.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Actually I will track down Jeanna Bryner, the author of the Article. From what I can gather she devotes her time to articles concerning human and cosmological origins.

It may take some time as I have to ask the question without revealing that I've entered a contest with some guy calling himself Johnny Canuck on ATS concerning a hidden agenda, possibly Religious, in her scientific articles. I know it sounds ridiculous that someone would use someone else's scientific research as cover and support to write an article supporting the notion that the Bishop of Rome is bound by an ancient and sacred oath to capture and/or kill the Son of God as a way of establishing CroMagnon supremacy on Earth.

I think that is what she's doing but Johnny says no.

Originally posted by IDK88
It may take some time as I have to ask the question without revealing that I've entered a contest with some guy calling himself Johnny Canuck on ATS concerning a hidden agenda, possibly Religious, in her scientific articles. I know it sounds ridiculous that someone would use someone else's scientific research as cover and support to write an article supporting the notion that the Bishop of Rome is bound by an ancient and sacred oath to capture and/or kill the Son of God as a way of establishing CroMagnon supremacy on Earth.

I think that is what she's doing but Johnny says no.

Perhaps, then, that is where we take separate ways...you are more interested in the motives of the writer of the article, while I am interested in the nature of the research being made known.

There is no contest. By all means, shake down Fox News for an explanation for the nature of their reportage. But you may have to get in line.

The article this thread is based on is making a subtle, but profound assertion...Or perhaps we pay scientists good money to conduct meaningless research and tell stories that have no point.

See, your earlier quote goes to define the nature of your discussion as well. To you, this is 'meaningless research' and a story with 'no point'. To many of us it is an exciting glimpse into the past provided by the use of sound scientific principals. Researchers into the deep past are hamstrung by a lack of contemporary accounts, therefore the remnants are made to speak for themselves. For the dots to be connected in an imaginative yet scientific manner and an epic new story to emerge is a thrill...to some.

I feel no need to question the need to popularise this tale...plenty of other anthro-nerds agree with me. But by all means, conduct your investigations and if you find a greater process in play, bring it back to us. Stranger things have happened, right IDK88?

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


I was misunderstood...I don't consider it to be meaningless research, if I did I wouldn't have even read it.

What I meant was that surely the article has a deeper meaning, something we can use to improve our lives in the present. If this is not the case then what is the point of knowing about something that occured 70,000 years ago?

There are so many things that I never read, if I read it and participated in a forum concerning it...it obvious that I found it to be useful...just in a different way. And for this I am crazy on the level a person who sees cabalistic influence on the design of Washington D.C..

Originally posted by IDK88
What I meant was that surely the article has a deeper meaning, something we can use to improve our lives in the present. If this is not the case then what is the point of knowing about something that occured 70,000 years ago?

I recognise the fact that this line of research points towards a greater understanding of our human-ness by demonstrating elements of it in the existence of our failed cousins on the evolutionary journey.

One poster said...

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Well you'd have to be an idiot to think that the smarter species wasn 't messing with the less advanced one.

But I have seen evidence that suggests that humans were not smarter...merely sneakier than Neanderthal.

Another member speaks to elements of ritual and kindness that may be inferred from Neanderthal graves:

Originally posted by Kandinsky
One of the bodies was found beneath a small pile of stones (grave marker) and another was found to have been buried with flowers and herbs (grave goods)...Both of these findings indicate ritual, conscience and a concept of an afterlife.

Perhaps more interestingly, the first Shanidar Neanderthal ...suffered from ill health, physical handicaps from childhood and survived a couple of serious head injuries. His age at death was estimated as around 40ya. Not bad? What this implies is that he'd been allowed to live by the support of those around him. His survival at that period is testament to assistance from others. Predators always pick out the weakest and most vulnerable member of a herd or group. Weak members are left to fend for themselves too. Neither of these things were allowed to happen in his case. It indicates that Neanderthals had a morality, a spirituality and an enviable life span considering the dangers...

I think these revelations from our deep past are important to us as they show that Neanderthal was no brute, and those things we admire in ourselves (sneakiness notwithstanding) were not exclusive to our species.

And that gives me pause.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Well, I agree 100% with your statement concerning sneaky humans. Sneakiness has played an enormous role in development of Human society.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

Hahah no, don't be so quick to jump the gun. I am not one of the garden of eden types my friend.

What I mean is the blatant lie we are told about the origins of humans and how most archeological evidence that we uncover these days directly contradicts the work of Archeologists who will scream until they are red in the face that these new findings are bs.

Things have never been hunky-dory between man and whatever species came before it. If dolphins were to spring legs and come up on land, you can bet your bottom dollar we'd start an extermination race.

~Keeper

Who ever said that everything was "hunky-dory" between Neanderthals and Modern Humans? I'm pretty sure that most anthropologists aand archaeologists DO believe that there could have certainly been violence between Neanderthals and Modern Humans. What is the "blatant lie" that you are talking about?

I remember hearing anthropologists' theories years ago that said Neanderthals could have been forced into extinction -- sometimes violently -- by Modern Humans. I'm pretty sure my high school textbooks from 25 to 30 years ago discussed this possibility.

...I mean, those Modern Humans were exactly like us, and violence is certainly part of our own human nature.


[edit on 7/28/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

Yeah. I think I saw this on Cold Case files. Seems this poor Neanderthal was killed by some Cro-Magnon named Larry.

And this is why spears should be outlawed.

Spears kill.