Stone Age Murder: Spear Wound Shows Human Killed Neanderthal

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Honestly, it's for the best. If we were to take every theory and declaration as fact just because the claim was made, i promise you we would be vastly more ignorant of the past than we are now. Proteacted argument and dismissal of finds is part of the process. If a researcher just gives up at the first sign of scorn, odds are their find or theory wasn't that certain anyway. Or, they can persist, hunt out more evidence to bolster their claim, and basically drag the consensus, kicking and screaming, into what they've found.

If it worked any other way we would be overrun by reptiloid atlanteans who pose as the gods of every single culture ever found who used atomic bombs all over the earth, blah blah blah, you know the crackpot stuff.

It's a self-checking system, and if your pet theory can't defend itself through evidence, then it's probably not a great theory.

reply to post by IDK88


I'm not buying the spear of destiny relation.

The spear of destiny is supposed to be the one that pierced Jesus's side in John's account of the crucifixion of Jesus. That occurred 2000 years ago.

The neanderthal was killed 40-50 thousand years ago.

reply to post by Wildbob77


Since the story is dealing with theories, I just presented one of my own. I figure it like this...if Jesus was the Son of God 2,000 years ago...he was the Son of God 70,000 years ago.

If you are alive today, as I assume that you are, then you, or one of your ancestors, was here 70,000 years ago. Most likely the Roman soldier Longinus was a male descendent of the human that first wielded the spear that was used to kill a Neanderthal King 68,000 years earlier and the person who has the spear at present is a descendent of the both of those men and searching for the Neanderthal King to stick it into; hows that for a family secret tradition. But Neanderthals don't exist anymore...or so we are told. Perhaps there is one, or two, left. Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

The article this thread is based on is making a subtle, but profound assertion. It is a veiled attempt, I believe, to make a comment concerning an ancient war. Apparently more ancient than most people are willing to accept. But keep in mind the Sumerians believed Kingship and Nations were far older than we currently believe.

Or perhaps we pay scientists good money to conduct meaningless research and tell stories that have no point.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Maybe you're considering Jean Auel as a "source" rather than a writer of cave porn?

That was so funny! I laughed pretty loud in the office..
Ok, I disagree with your opinion about Jean Auel. But cave porn... yeah, ok, fair enough.

Originally posted by IDK88
Most likely the Roman soldier Longinus was a male descendent of the human that first wielded the spear that was used to kill a Neanderthal King 68,000 years earlier

Of course Longinus was a descendant of the spearthrower.

So are you.

So am I.

Every human being alive today is a descendant of that spearthrower. Consider that you have two parents, four grandparents, eight greatgrandparents. Take that back 50,000 years, allow for no more than the usual amount of incest, consider what the size of the human population must have been in those times and do the arithmetic.

The person who has the spear at present is a descendent of the both of those men...

Less likely but still quite possible.

...and (is) searching for the Neanderthal King to stick it into.

Who told you Neanderthals had kings?

The article this thread is based on is making a subtle, but profound assertion. It is a veiled attempt, I believe, to make a comment concerning an ancient war.

No, it is simply a piece of scientific research into which you are reading some rather improbable ideas.

We pay scientists good money to conduct meaningless research and tell stories that have no point.

Perhaps the point is clearer to others than it is to you.

reply to post by IDK88
That's a really interesting leap of imagination you've made from the bare facts of the Fox News article. Somehow, you've endeavored to link Homo Neanderthalis to Homo sapiens sapiens via an two allegorical Biblical accounts *some* people consider a historical document. Old Testament and New Testament have been linked without any rationale...elaboration of simple facts has gotten slightly out of hand.

Is your contention that the Shanidar remains are that of Adam? If so, who are the other remains? Cain, Abel and whoever else? They are dated to 10 times the age of an Old Testament Earth...60, 000kya. The Spear of Destiny is a legend that arose long after the 4th Century advent of the Christian Gospels.

Neanderthals are an extinct relation to us...distinct and (so far) sharing no evidence in their genome that we interbred. If you want to believe in an 'Adam' you can't have it both ways.

'What ifs' are fun and the Von Danikens of the world make a fair living out of this type of thinking. The facts are that there's nothing in the article or the research into the Shanidar Caves to support a single point in the 'what if?'

Shanidar 1-3

Shanidar Caves

Here's a short video that covers a few little known facts about human migration and evolution as part of the Human Genome Project...

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

Granted there is less evidence to support this theory for neanderthal and cro-magnon man since the time difference between us and them is so fast.

Ah, but see how the researchers seek to replicate the injuries by experimentation and analogs such as using pig carcasses for a Neanderthal torso. That is how new ideas are tested. Science is not about sitting still...nobody goes into Anthropology with a vow to preserve the status quo. They go to make their name in a subject that inspires them. Exciting discoveries are not 'shunned'...they are met with two words. "Prove it"

And that's why it's science. Preserving the status quo is done by being comfortable in a worldview created by Jean Auel

These things are not acknowledged by as I said the "established" acheological community. And it's truly sad.

Two more words: Monte Verde. Change does happen. Read how.

i watched a documentary on cannibalism a while back and someone on it said they'd found evidence neanderthals attacking early humans when they built huts and early settlements, would this be at the same stage of development as the spear wound killing the neanderthal?

if so it could be something to do with the fact the documentary said the neanderthals attacked by killing the young, since this was seen as one of the worst things to do to a small group of people.

anyway, could be nothing to do with it, you know how reliable documentaries are

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by IDK88
Most likely the Roman soldier Longinus was a male descendent of the human that first wielded the spear that was used to kill a Neanderthal King 68,000 years earlier

Of course Longinus was a descendant of the spearthrower.

So are you.

So am I.

Every human being alive today is a descendant of that spearthrower. Consider that you have two parents, four grandparents, eight greatgrandparents. Take that back 50,000 years, allow for no more than the usual amount of incest, consider what the size of the human population must have been in those times and do the arithmetic.

The person who has the spear at present is a descendent of the both of those men...

Less likely but still quite possible.

...and (is) searching for the Neanderthal King to stick it into.

Who told you Neanderthals had kings?

The article this thread is based on is making a subtle, but profound assertion. It is a veiled attempt, I believe, to make a comment concerning an ancient war.

No, it is simply a piece of scientific research into which you are reading some rather improbable ideas.

We pay scientists good money to conduct meaningless research and tell stories that have no point.

Perhaps the point is clearer to others than it is to you.

After reading your response you tone seems to be a bit upset by my theory...you should get help with that, quick to anger thing; you'll live a longer life.

With regard to the King comment...A true King is a natural phenomemnon...the only Kings any of you know about are the political/religious creation; and not the concept of the "Natural Born King". Priests hate those things and have bound themselves by "Mutual Imprecations" to destroy one whenever or wherever he appears.

I was going to respond but you seem a little pissed and I don't want to waste my time.

Instead, I challenge you to provide a even a basic explanation for global modern human conflict and the politics of Power.



[edit on 27-7-2009 by IDK88]

[edit on 27-7-2009 by IDK88]

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by IDK88

 

That's a really interesting leap of imagination you've made from the bare facts of the Fox News article. Somehow, you've endeavored to link Homo Neanderthalis to Homo sapiens sapiens via an two allegorical Biblical accounts *some* people consider a historical document. Old Testament and New Testament have been linked without any rationale...elaboration of simple facts has gotten slightly out of hand.

Is your contention that the Shanidar remains are that of Adam? If so, who are the other remains? Cain, Abel and whoever else? They are dated to 10 times the age of an Old Testament Earth...60, 000kya. The Spear of Destiny is a legend that arose long after the 4th Century advent of the Christian Gospels.

Neanderthals are an extinct relation to us...distinct and (so far) sharing no evidence in their genome that we interbred. If you want to believe in an 'Adam' you can't have it both ways.

'What ifs' are fun and the Von Danikens of the world make a fair living out of this type of thinking. The facts are that there's nothing in the article or the research into the Shanidar Caves to support a single point in the 'what if?'

Shanidar 1-3

Shanidar Caves

Here's a short video that covers a few little known facts about human migration and evolution as part of the Human Genome Project...

I haven't linked anything...I stated that the Authors of the article are using elements of Biblical stories (A Wound in the Rib, A Spear, Iraq, etc.) to tell their story about a hypothetical encounter between a Neanderthal and a CroMagnon. Prove that they are not.

My contention is that the character Adam and the others from the Bible are references to Neanderthals. The Giants, Sons of God, Men of Renown, who took wives from among the Daughters of Men. The Bible is littered with what can only be understood to be a somewhat separate and distinct group of Men who nailed a bunch of skanky human women which brought about catastrophe.

Since I know that everything that comes from most of your minds are lies...I leave open to the possibility of just about anything.

I won't waste my time viewing your video. Why is it that full disclosure concerning these topics is assumed when you want to believe it is.

I know...My theory leaves open the possibility that the Bishop of Rome is bound by an ancient oath to Kill God. This is the only explanation for your response; False Intellectual. As these days progress it is becoming more and more obvious that Christians, along with other religious groups, find themselves on a collision course with the very object that they claim to be the servant of. Many among you probably never thought this day would come, but here we are.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by IDK88]

Originally posted by IDK88
Since I know that everything that comes from most of your minds are lies...I leave open to the possibility of just about anything.

I won't waste my time viewing your video. Why is it that full disclosure concerning these topics is assumed when you want to believe it is.

Which is to say, "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!"



Don't step in that Wilbur....

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Well, I guess you'll get to see how that's working out for you. At least that's something to be optimistic about. Oh yeah, To what Facts are you refering?



[edit on 27-7-2009 by IDK88]

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by IDK88
Most likely the Roman soldier Longinus was a male descendent of the human that first wielded the spear that was used to kill a Neanderthal King 68,000 years earlier

Of course Longinus was a descendant of the spearthrower.

So are you.

So am I.

Every human being alive today is a descendant of that spearthrower. Consider that you have two parents, four grandparents, eight greatgrandparents. Take that back 50,000 years, allow for no more than the usual amount of incest, consider what the size of the human population must have been in those times and do the arithmetic.

Well, actually the odds are no one is a descendant of the spear-thrower here, and if they are, they're probably in the general area where this find was made.

One, there's pretty much no chance that this dude's family line extended this far. Modern families die off through lack of children and relatives fairly regularly. Multiply that by a few hundred thousand and you've got a pretty good chance of this fellow's line having ended pretty long ago.

Hell, odds are, his entire race no longer exists, having been subsumed into other waves of human migration eons ago.

We all have better odds of being the great to the power of twelve grandchild of Genghis Khan than we do having any relation to this guy.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by TheWalkingFox]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


All I can say...with Great confidence...If you are here today you were here 100,000 years ago.You are not some special recent creation, but a part of a continuous stream of life extending back into infinity. You were there or you knew someone that was there.





[edit on 27-7-2009 by IDK88]

Hard to beleive a man could live to be that old 50,000 years ago without a swine flu shot, getting the kids finger printed, a bank bailout or NASA
Oh! not a man. An ape man.

Originally posted by IDK88
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Well, I guess you'll get to see how that's working out for you. At least that's something to be optimistic about. Oh yeah, To what Facts are you refering?

I guess the point that I'm making is that the original post is based upon observation and experiment in trying to come up with a reasonable explanation for the circumstances as described. To ignore timelines, inject Biblical references and extrapolate them into modern legend...ie "The Sword of Destiny" is not exactly of the same calibre of investigation.

But hey, if it works for you, have at it...

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


My post was based on the analysis that the article itself contains Biblical or Religious type references.

The Spear (As in the Spear of Destiny)
The Wound near the Left 9th Rib of the victim (As in the wound Jesus received or the opening in Adam's side from which Eve was taken)
The Event occurs in Northern Iraq (Mesopotamia, the cradle of Civilization)

Someone asked why is this even news (the Article)...I suggested that the authors of the article are trying to communicate, using a secret language, in this case Biblical Allusions, some event occuring in the world. And yes people speak in these terms quite often; whether you understand it is irrelevent.

Scientific experimentation is conducted to improve our understanding of the world. Some people, like you apparently, see the most basic purpose of these stories and leave with nothing more than the ability to outperform your peers in Trivial Pursuit or Jeopardy (knowledge based on the number of facts you can regurgitate) and others, like me, seek to have a deeper understanding as to why at all this story specifically would appear as news in a major news outlet (Wisdom).

My analysis was about the article and the authors choice to use this specific example when other dead Neanderthals exist to talk about.

The other parts of my response were simply filler to provide a framework for people who may not see my point to be able to follow my line of thought. I figured...people who come here are bored anyway, perhaps they'll take the time and find some enjoyment out of this. But obviously some people are to busy pushing a political and social agenda to even allow such discussions to occur. Seriously, I am not interested in what your experts think...I am certain they are not all that intelligent.

Sorry if you were overly bored, good thing there are so many other threads on this site.

Originally posted by IDK88
My post was based on the analysis that the article itself contains Biblical or Religious type references.
The Spear (As in the Spear of Destiny)
The Wound near the Left 9th Rib of the victim (As in the wound Jesus received or the opening in Adam's side from which Eve was taken)
The Event occurs in Northern Iraq (Mesopotamia, the cradle of Civilization)

Sorry, my skepticism is not based upon boredom. I have studied archaeology, and enjoy working at its fringes. However what you are suggesting is pretty thin at best. You can chase this line of conjecture down, and I wish you well.

I am more interested in the literal components of the report, which are apparently not meaningful enough for you.

A quick self edit to point out that the researchers base their statement upon the assertion that the wound was not a thrusting wound, such as a spear might make. It was instead the result of the use of an atl-atl...a technology which Neanderthal didn't possess...hence Neanderthal killed by human.

But don't let that mess up your analysis of their symbolic meaning...

[edit on 27-7-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Perhaps, and that'll probably get you the $2000 answer on double jeopardy. But why is it news? Why did it appear last week as a story?

That's the question I was answering. Knowing what kind of weapons early humans used is trivia...this threads are Above Top Secret.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by IDK88]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

You could be right, Fox, provided all the spearthrower's grandchildren died childless. A line that lasts three generations will in all probability continue. Of course massacre and cataclysm can wipe out whole communities, but human beings are tough and tend to be survivors more than most.

It isn't necessary for there to be a genetic inheritance in order for someone to be your descendant, or mine, or the spearthrower's, or Longinus's. All that's necessary is old-fashioned consanguinity, the sort that was used to draw up family trees. We have some thirty-odd thousand genes and countless numbers of ancestors, so one must expect attrition.

I can't quote specific references, but Richard Dawkins has said the same as I in at least two of his books: Unweaving the Rainbow and The Ancestor's Tale. He probably knows whereof he speaks.