Shock: Inside the Obama Healthcare Bill

Originally posted by WhatTheory Comprehension is your friend.

Sorry Dude...King's English is the best I can do. Take off your filters, and I'm sure it'll make sense.

Over and out.

WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THIS HEALTH CARE BILL!!!!!!!

There's no way this can pass. We have got to stop this.

What should we call this? Socialism? Communism? Obamunism?

Pray that Congressmen actually read this bill.

Check out this quote from Nancy Pelosi regarding Obama's Healthcare Plan being a "GIFT":
Transcript

I am very confident that we will be on schedule, and we will be able to present a wonderful gift to the American people, a gift of confidence, a gift of peace of mind

She must really be on drugs or something. How stupid does she think we are? Isn't there a saying which says something like "Beware of people bearing gifts"

[edit on 7/25/2009 by WhatTheory]

reply to post by WhatTheory


She probably is after all she and her cronies doesn't have to be under the health care bill.

So the so call "gift" is nothing but throwing crap to the hopeful American people while they don't have eat it like the rest of us will.

Originally posted by marg6043
She probably is after all she and her cronies doesn't have to be under the health care bill.

That is what's so sinister & deceitful. If Obama's plan is so great, let them be 'with the people' and get rid of their current awesome plan and join the rest of us with Obama's pile of garbage.

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Check out this quote from Nancy Pelosi regarding Obama's Healthcare Plan being a "GIFT":

Transcript

I am very confident that we will be on schedule, and we will be able to present a wonderful gift to the American people, a gift of confidence, a gift of peace of mind

She must really be on drugs or something. How stupid does she think we are? Isn't there a saying which says something like "Beware of people bearing gifts"

[edit on 7/25/2009 by WhatTheory]

Check out Fox News.com
Key Democrat Kent Conrad concedes that Republican support is needed
in order to pass this ObamaCare Garbage!
Dream on!
They have 60 votes in the senate.
Don't come running to the Republicans.
We don't want anything to do with this Financial Cancer sponsored
by the Obama/Pelosi/Reid lunatics!



[edit on 26-7-2009 by Eurisko2012]

reply to post by Eurisko2012


So far the Hillary version was not considered, so now the Obama is going to vote.

Still now the Democratic congress sees that this bill is going to be to costly so they are now working on another provision to include a golden tax or something along the lines so hey who say that this is not going to cost the tax payer anything? and this tax will be for everybody.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Eurisko2012

 

So far the Hillary version was not considered, so now the Obama is going to vote.

Still now the Democratic congress sees that this bill is going to be to costly so they are now working on another provision to include a golden tax or something along the lines so hey who say that this is not going to cost the tax payer anything? and this tax will be for everybody.

Oh! Well that sounds wonderful! I always love a free lunch.
What they are saying will not work.
But that's OK. It doesn't have to work.
It just has to sound pretty good.

You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the
people all the time.


Obama is going crash and burn with this smoke and mirror nonsense.
That God!

Originally posted by marg6043


What changed? Government creation of what we know as the popular entitlement program call Medicare. When government takes money out of citizens pay checks to pay for entitlement programs it creates the biggest mess in the history of the nation.

That is what Medicare has done to the nation, now Obamacare will do the same to the tax payer take money out of their pay checks or force businesses into government entitlement programs and guess what, is going to be the same disastrous results as the Medicare has cause to this nation.

Why? because government doesn't have the ability to do accountability for spending.

Is not that Medicare have fail is the government what fail Medicare

And another entitlement program run by the government will fail miserable again.

[edit on 23-7-2009 by marg6043]

No, it was the creation of the HMO.



This is a transcript of the 1971 conversation between President Richard Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman that led to the HMO act of 1973:

John D. Ehrlichman: “On the … on the health business …”

President Nixon: “Yeah.”

Ehrlichman: “… we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, ‘Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the President thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred percent.’”

President Nixon: “Well, what’s … what’s the judgment?”

Ehrlichman: “Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly is that we go with it.”

President Nixon: “All right.”

Ehrlichman: “And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we have in the whole office.”

President Nixon: “Say that I … I … I’d tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen on any of these damn medical programs.”

Ehrlichman: “This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “This … this is a …”

President Nixon: “I don’t [unclear] …”

Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”

President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”

Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”

President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”

President Nixon: “Not bad.”

reply to post by WhatTheory

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

Just like private insurers do now?

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

Thank God someone is doing something about those damn Scooter Store commercials on TV that are advertising FREE wheelchairs to seniors just so they can bill Medicare/Medicaid millions! What a scam!

Yes, lets us have the government run our health care (our very LIVES) the same way they run our public education system and our social security honestly. The responses here supporting this piece of drivel are astounding!
and before anything is uttered in support of our education. Know that I've learned more truths from going to a library and reading all by myself, than the half-truths and hidden white lies that our educational system currently has. In fact.

Our educational system right now, is actually worse than when I graduated back in 2001! As my wife put it very succinctly, schools right now don't teach the future Einsteins or the future Bachs of the world, their simply a factory to make "happy workers". Make them educated enough and capable enough to do simply entry level and supervisor jobs. But not educated enough to where they will make any actual progress and any actual effect on the country. I'm starting to agree with her more every day just due to my past and current experiences with some people whom I honestly wonder each day "How the heck are they even ALLOWED to graduate? I thought getting a Bachelors degree was supposed to be given to someone who is actually smart!" But then I go back to my grandmother's wise words "A degree is only good for wiping your behind if you don't actually use what you learn"

Sorry I de-railed there for a bit. But essentially, I was trying to make the case go full circle in saying that, I can't even trust the government NOW to provide for a good education or even social security, then WHY IN THE WORLD would I want to give them free reign on MY LIFE???

and for those wondering... Yes, if I have kids, I would rather send them to a good private school than give them the public option.

First of all this is my first post, and i believe I am jumping into a pool of sharks .

What bothers me the most about this debate, is that we are not even bothering to fix the real problem, the Healthcare-Industry Complex. We have found one rotten apple (or maybe a dozen) and tossing out the entire barrel. I was watching john stosels (sp?) 20/20 report and he asked Michal Moore and why he just went after the health care system, not the insurance companies. That is the heart of the problem.

It also confounds me why we also are comparing health care in the US to health care in Canada and the EU. Just using the assumption that minorities tend to well take more health recourses (I think we can agree that most minorities tend to make less, receive inferior care etc.) reveal a sharp difference. !6.20 % "Visible Minorities" in Canada compared to 34% minority rate in USA. We also take in more illegal immigrants than does Canada. The quality of immigrants that leave for Canada also have more education than the ones leaving for USA.
Affect of immigration on labour markets in Canada, US, And Mexico

What I also find troubling is the few posters that believe doctors are to be blamed for their high salaries and for feeding off the sick and dieing." One of the most paid specialists are neurosuergons raking in on average about 500 grand a year (a good surgeon can make a million easily). Do you know why they make that much money? It takes 8 years of internship plus 4 years of medical school, 12 years of learning. There is such a work demand that the average Neurosurgeon works 80 hours a week. Oh and don't forget the on average 250,000$ worth of insurance premiums just to operate!!!
Neurosurgeon Salaries

Oh!, and to me the biggest reason why ObamaCare shouldn't pass, your own doctors don't want it.
A.M.A. Opposes ObamaCare

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

I don't know if agreeing to pay pittance per year to cure your brother's cancer or other grievous illness they can't afford to pay for treatment of themselves, be they homeless and destitute, qualifies as love. But I sure know that the contrary doesn't.

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Please, please reconsider, fellow Christians, who oppose single payer or even an opt-in government plan.

Please.

Regards.

- One Less Reason - A day to be alone

[edit on 27-7-2009 by SonyADbis]

[edit on 27-7-2009 by SonyADbis]

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Sorry John,But you can keep your "socialized medicine" far away from America.Living in Canada and experiencing it firsthand might be wondrous,until you need some life saving transplant,or in need of a drug that wont be administered to you because you don't qualify,or they dont have it.Here's a bit of reading for your pleasure.Its in the UK,and the experiment has failed for 60 years.Also added some Canada ones too!

Enjoy!
England

www.timesonline.co.uk...
www.dailymail.co.uk...
www.guardian.co.uk...
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.dailymail.co.uk...

Canada
www.ctv.ca...
www.cbc.ca...
www.mackinac.org...

According to a national poll, four out of five Canadians are unhappy with their socialized health care system. Doctors in Manitoba apparently agree: Almost half of them have left the province in the past decade alone.

John,are you the only one happy with the Healthcare in Canada?









[edit on 28-7-2009 by sonnny1]

Originally posted by sonnny1
According to a national poll, four out of five Canadians are unhappy with their socialized health care system. Doctors in Manitoba apparently agree: Almost half of them have left the province in the past decade alone.

John,are you the only one happy with the Healthcare in Canada?

Can you show me a poll that suggests we want it replaced with the American system?

I got my cancer cured for $32 out of pocket. You bet I'm Jim-freakin'-dandyo happy with our health care system. I'm pretty damn chuffed about our banks, too!

You can do whatever you like...I'm just saying don't use our experience to perpetuate the klepto/plutocracy that you call health care in your country.

Originally posted by SonyADbis

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

I don't know if agreeing to pay pittance per year to cure your brother's cancer or other grievous illness they can't afford to pay for treatment of themselves, be they homeless and destitute, qualifies as love. But I sure know that the contrary doesn't.

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Please, please reconsider, fellow Christians, who oppose single payer or even an opt-in government plan.

Please.

Regards.

- One Less Reason - A day to be alone

[edit on 27-7-2009 by SonyADbis]

[edit on 27-7-2009 by SonyADbis]

You know, I am honestly SICK and tired of people like yourself trying to tell us HOW we should do our work without even bothering to consider the consequences. First of all so called "fellow christian" Charity and giving is not, NOT NOT (let me ad a fourth) NOOOOOOT charity or giving if it is FORCED against OUR will! Are you so dense you can't tell the difference?

Second, WHY in the world, SHOULD I be forced to "give a charity" of 50% of MY hard earned money, to a bureaucratic money machine that is only interested in greed and corruption? Is my giving and helping people through my church too little for you that you deem it necessary to bleed me and my family of MORE of my money? Who exactly is the selfish one here?

Do yourself a favor, re-read your scriptures because I see no evidence of God or Jesus wanting to FORCE their will upon us or let someone force their wishes upon us. God created us with free will so that we give and we love one another WILLINGLY! Not because someone says so! By forcing all of us into this machine you will systematically destroy our livelihoods, and in the process lump all the good willing christians with the hyppocrites! We don't need this plan, we are more than capable of giving and helping one another WITHOUT the government.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

I simply wish the same for y'all. And I cannot see how the system could be worse than what you cite now.

This entire thing is hard to explain because there's more than 4,000 characters worth of stuff here, so please bear with me.

The thing that is very hard to explain to people from other countries about our health care is that it's really not bad. The only thing that isn't quite right are specialists, they are a bit too pricey. The reason they are pricey, though, is because they have to attempt to protect themselves from being sued, and they do this through many expensive means that has a direct impact on the cost of health insurance (oddly, not on direct pay).

One thing you must understand as well is that we already have government run health care. The thing is, though, that it sucks. This comes from somebody who has used it. It is inefficient, costly, and just plain bad. People often opt out of using those programs instead of not using anything. That is how bad they are. I am one of those people.

The reasons for this are many. One of them has to do with how diverse we are as a country. When you compare Americans with Canadians, in terms of diversity, Canadians will exist in a fairly homogeneous clump compared to the United States. This results in, typically, fewer tests on a person than in Canada than a U.S.

For example, Sickle Cell Anemia probably isn't a big deal in Canada but it is much bigger in the U.S. Of course, it's a much bigger deal in areas where there are concentrated amounts of people from tropical areas.

You can also see this in your country as well. To bring a source to the table:

dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca...

If you go down to the Farmers section (do a find and type in A. Farmers), you'll see that rural citizens often have specific needs that urban citizens do not. An urban citizen probably has little need for care for Farmers Lung.

It's no different here. While you may have a very diverse group of people, we are more diverse by several fold. When you compare either of our countries to European countries, it's very shocking. Hell, to compare the two of ours is still pretty telling.

So, going back to the Sickle Cell thing, the cost of it in your country, percentage wise, is probably not going to be the same levels as it is in the United States because we have 12.5% black people in our population while you only have 2.5% (I believe those are the most accurate numbers available at this time but I'm not entirely sure) and black people are the primary people predisposed.

Likewise, Brazillians are probably paying much more for Sickle Cell care than we are. However, they're probably not paying as much for something that a white person is more predisposed to. To go further, you probably have more white people, percentage wise, in your country than we here in the United States have, so you'd be most impacted by it.

I know this next thing will be viewed as racist but it's not, it's just the truth. When genetic problems from two groups of people combine, it costs more money to deal with as you have to deal with two problems for one person. This can happen interracially as well, it could just be that where that person is from, say, Switzerland, the people that live there don't have a problem that, say, the Irish have... but they both have unique problems that they are predisposed to.

That is one reason why people in fairly homogeneous country tend to have lower health care costs and healthier people. It's why they probably won't check for Sickle Cell in Holland but they'll check it here, even if it isn't needed at all because the doctors have to cover themselves.

The only thing that really needs change here is Tort reform. Our health care system is very good. We have tons of choices available to us, all of which are approachable regardless of how much money you make.

52 characters left after all of that. Jeez .

Originally posted by WhatTheory


The list is his interpretation but the few I checked seem to be right on the money.
Here is the actual Healthcare Bill for reference: Obama's Healthcare Bill

Curious, which did you check out that were 'right on the money'. Please tell us each particular case you checked out and verified the veracity of the list you provided. Thanks.

Edit to add: I really am looking forward to your reply mate. I will defiantly learn something about the ills of this bill when you present to me in the bills own language some of the issues your OP presented. Thanks.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by Animal]

Originally posted by marg6043
let me clarify that the very poor that do not work will not be included in this bill, this bill is to target first the working poor and what ever middle class we still have, only people with employment and businesses.

The government until this day has no devised a plan on how to cover 400 million poor none working people in the nation.

Because the program needs taxable income first to work and only the working force is to be targeted first.

Like any other plans our private owner government does is to gouge people that still works and pay taxes.

This bill certainly Does include the poor.
The poor and retired will still get Medicare and Medicaid but in a different form than they now have.
Expanded coverage if I am reading it correctly.

This bill just goes Beyond what is necessary for the U.S.

IF the problem is with the “Working Poor” then they need to make the Medicare and Medicaid programs available for them and leave the rest of us alone.
What we Really Need is Insurance And Litigation Reform.

reply to post by WhatTheory