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Shock: Inside the Obama Healthcare Bill

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posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by tsloan
 




And none of the articles you use as propaganda tell you that these patients were waiting to see a doctor they wanted to use. They had a choice to get seen just as fast as you would here in the U.S. I'm sorry pal your just wrong point blank. You turn on BBC and you DO NOT SEE people falling dead in the street, people are not rioting over health care.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. The example of not seeing people rioting in the streets in UK is just like America; people feel unable to do anything and would rather turn a blind eye to it all. In a doctor’s surgery you will be seen the same day unless you want a specific doctor. But then you will be referred to a hospital for diagnosis and treatment and that is when the wait starts.
They brought in government targets to force hospitals to lower the waiting times, so now the majority are seen within 18 weeks of the initial doctor’s appointment. I repeat…18 weeks if you are lucky. I am sure it is way longer for hip/knee replacements. Mostly you are not allowed knee hip operations until a certain age as they will only do it once.
The health service in the UK is appalling at times, and at its worst is worse than some third world countries. The only decent treatment seems to be in the private hospitals. I have witnessed patients in hospital being left to starve. I have seen 95 year old women taking 20 minutes to struggle to the bathroom with a walking frame because the nurses ignore the bells and are too damn lazy to come and take them. The amount of untreated MRSA is shocking and many die purely because of that. Wards are often a health risk because of the filthy conditions. The only thing you want when visiting a relative in hospital is to get them the hell out of there. We are rationed…depending on your postcode or zip you are either allowed life saving drugs or refused them based on the finances of that particular authority. So if you do not live in the right place you will die, simple as that.
The government throws billions at it but it still does not improve. Why is all this…mainly mismanagement of money, stupid government targets, too many middle management and accountants, 'care' based on financial judgement not health judgement, no common sense and an absence of even basic care at ground level. In America you can sue if something goes wrong which forces your doctors to be good.
Talking of dentistry…we do have queues stretching down the road when a new dentists surgery opens because although the health ‘care’ is free as such, most cannot get a free dentist because most dentists choose to do private work to get more money, and people cannot afford the exorbitant rates of the private dentists and there are loads of reports of people extracting their own teeth with a pair of pliers. We have a few foreign mobile clinics that sometimes come and park up and treat people…lol




posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
Get a clue friend we have a broken system here, you may not like yours but I doubt it would have abandoned you like that. That is what I call sub standard care friend.


I concur...the system has served me and mine perfectly well. I am addressing those who point to us in fear and cite the aberrations to scare Americans.

I don't know if Obama's plan will serve you as well...but by the sounds of it, it beats what you...by and large...have now.

It is a no-brainer that if you remove the profit motive from the system, you can get better care for less cost. Sorry to hear about your brother. All I'm saying is that it simply wouldn't happen here. Never mind the bravo sierra about why our population cannot be equated with yours...bump the figures by a factor of ten and we're singing the same song.

This is all about big money and politics...which should have nothing to do with making sure your brothers and sisters need not lose their homes if they get sick.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Donkey_Dean




You just have not gotten sick yet! Your provider will drop you like a stone at the first sign of major trouble. They will research every aspect of your past life to determine if you have ever lied to them.

I'm sure that some slimebag company has done this but it's not the norm. You can pick the extreams if you chose but the opposing argument can likewise point out the extream aspects of the socialized med industry. One could say that a doc will not reattach your fingers due to cost in this system while in a Communist country the doctors may say that your work doesn't rerquire all of your digits and it would be in the nations best interest "not" to reattach them. The grass isn't always greener on the other side you know........ The more power yuou afford government the more they abuse the people.


If so your screwed. American medical care is some of the worst in the world.



and its sub standard to boot........


Now you know that your flat out lying. The insurance aspect needs a rework for sure. But, the care is not to be surpassed. Other doctors around the world contribute to the feild with new developements in treatment and surgury. But, the application of services as a whole are the best you'll find.....



Jesus, I really wish it was easier to move the hell out of this country.


So long as you have an attitude like that about our country I'll be more than happy to help speed that process in any way that I can.........



[edit on 23-7-2009 by lazy1981]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
Get a clue friend we have a broken system here, you may not like yours but I doubt it would have abandoned you like that. That is what I call sub standard care friend.


I concur...the system has served me and mine perfectly well. I am addressing those who point to us in fear and cite the aberrations to scare Americans.

I don't know if Obama's plan will serve you as well...but by the sounds of it, it beats what you...by and large...have now.

It is a no-brainer that if you remove the profit motive from the system, you can get better care for less cost. Sorry to hear about your brother. All I'm saying is that it simply wouldn't happen here. Never mind the bravo sierra about why our population cannot be equated with yours...bump the figures by a factor of ten and we're singing the same song.

This is all about big money and politics...which should have nothing to do with making sure your brothers and sisters need not lose their homes if they get sick.



You can't remove the profit motive system. Once you do, you remove all the motive from the system. That the thing with Public v.s. Private systems, incentive. Private entities have incentive to do better whereas public systems do not. This has been proven time and time again. Just look at the school system. If the government could prove that they are able to run anything more efficiently and effectively than a private entity than all this would be null and void, but they cannot. Never have, never will. There are too many competing interests with too many competing motives. At least with business, we know their motivation... Profits. And to boot, when it comes to helping people, I mean actually helping them, private charities (not-for-profit) are far more effective than the government. If the government allowed the people to retain more of their money, more people would receive help IMO from charities and individuals who take it upon themselves to make society better. These individuals would also receive the benefit of feeling good about what they have done to help because they have done so with their own FREE will not because the leviathan has told them to do so, and then wasted most of it. The Bureaucracy strangles all the value from the "good intentions" of the people in power. This is the case, it has been proven time and time again, yet many people still put their faith in an entity that never proves themselves worthy. Why?

And again, why not have the states run these programs themselves? If you hated No Child Left Behind, if you are being consistent, you would have to hate this bill.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by lazy1981
You can pick the extreams if you chose but the opposing argument can likewise point out the extream aspects of the socialized med industry. One could say that a doc will not reattach your fingers due to cost in this system while in a Communist country the doctors may say that your work doesn't rerquire all of your digits and it would be in the nations best interest "not" to reattach them. The grass isn't always greener on the other side you know........


But if they tried that crap in Canada, you'd be able to retire on the results of the lawsuit. There is a middle ground, you know.

self edit to add...

Originally posted by RDR17
You can't remove the profit motive system. Once you do, you remove all the motive from the system.


Not if the movie is a national initiative to provide universal health care to all of the citizenry...such as we have here.

Yah, I know...creeping socialism. Seems to serve us pretty well, though.

[edit on 23-7-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by RDR17
You can't remove the profit motive system. Once you do, you remove all the motive from the system.

Not if the movie is a national initiative to provide universal health care to all of the citizenry...such as we have here.

Yah, I know...creeping socialism. Seems to serve us pretty well, though.

[edit on 23-7-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]


I'm talking about once that system is in place. Once the system is in place the quality of care will remain stagnant at best.

Also, why is it then that the Canadian systems produces a much greater death rate for cancer than the system here with all of its problems? We all agree that reform is needed. It's just the type of reform that we disagree about, which is what should happen in any civilized discussion. I appreciate your point of view, but we disagree. That's okay. I don't think your some commie pinko, and I'm certainly not some right wing nut. We both want the same thing. We just believe in different ways of reaching that goal. Neither one is more compassionate.

Just answer this for me, What is the problem with having these programs, especially health care run by the states? This way the people would have the freedom to chose to live in a state that resembles them and their beliefs better. Why is the answer to every problem, according to many, always the centralization of power? Doesn't that give you pause at least?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by WinoBot
 


Interesting that you advocate for this and have not clue how and who is going to be paying for that 1 trillion dollars that this health care bill will cost to you and me.

Yes, read my lips is not free perhaps just for illegal immigrants as so far is pointing to be.


screw it, we're already in the hole. I'll take a little bit more of a hit so people are no longer turned away for a precondition. Apparently people would rather have cheaper taxes then healthy brothers and sisters. that disgusts me.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:52 PM
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Guess which program was cancelled?




posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:55 PM
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Wow, look at the simplicity and elegance of Obama's Healthcare System.




[edit on 7/23/2009 by WhatTheory]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:57 PM
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Ask yourself what is "insurance" and what is the most effective means of providing "insurance".

That would be a "single payer" system which most Americans support but not Pres Obama. That would combine all tax revenues and make for a pretty strong voice in negotiating costs with all healthcare providers.

But fear not all you wealthy ATS'ers you can still purchase private insurance for your top of the line medical procedures and treatments. You need not be afraid.

Single payer is for the rest of us peons. But the lobbyists and TPTB would not even allow it be discussed so we get this 1000 pager.

Why should an insurance CEO get 1.6 billion dollars for pooling our money to provide healthcare. Couldn't we at the very least outsource his job to China?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by RDR17
Just answer this for me, What is the problem with having these programs, especially health care run by the states? This way the people would have the freedom to chose to live in a state that resembles them and their beliefs better. Why is the answer to every problem, according to many, always the centralization of power? Doesn't that give you pause at least?


My gut reaction is that folks don't always have the financial wherewithal to move to a state with better circumstances than their own. Like those that say, if you don't have insurance, find a job that provides it.

Just like that?

Now what could be envisioned is that having a state plan could be an incentive by the government to attract a good workforce...or would manufacturers move to states that wouldn't draw health care deductions from them?

No easy answers, friend.

Quick edit to say that in Canada, the principal of universal health care is a federal mandate, but it is administered by the provinces.

And as David Axelrod just emailed me from the White House:


Truth be told — with each passing day, more and more Americans are unable to get the health care they need, when they need it. Skyrocketing co-pays and deductibles and soaring insurance premiums are crushing our family budgets and small businesses. Unless we act now, these problems are guaranteed to get worse and worse. Under reform, American families will get the stability and security they deserve. They'll no longer have to fear losing health care coverage if they lose or switch jobs, going bankrupt if they become seriously ill, or being denied coverage because of a pre-existing medical condition. Reform will ensure all Americans have access to quality, affordable insurance. We all have a stake in this and for the 14,000 Americans who are losing their health insurance each day — reform can't wait.


Sounds cool to me.

[edit on 23-7-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


It was the F-22 that was canceled, and if anybody that looks at that chart and says that this plan will save money is smoking freaking crack.

That is a rats nest of bureaucracy.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 



Have you ever given one thought to the millions this will help? So what if it tells a doctor that he cant charge $500,000 for a transplant. He can only charge $50,000. Aww the poor doctor cant buy his new boat
To F#&$n bad. Think about the little kid that needs a new lung and now the family can finally afford it. Should healh care be rationed, in some ways yes. There is no reason that anyone should have to go to the ER 3 times in a week for a simple cough or because I stubbed my toe, or I have a fever of 98.9. and yes people do that. Our health care is shot to # in this country. Now The one thing that I read in this post (I have not done my own research yet) and I pray to GOD it's not true is that this will be covering illeagle aliens.

^*%@#*O)^$O!@Y$#V%LJ!GC%LC@$G%LCL@$%^*!@#^)R)!@#%)GL!@#$VLJ%CLGJC$%*^R$%P%YCLJG$%COP*%)*R%L$C%LUR%)%_&!@_%P!&%_764


Alright calm down thats a compleatly diffrent issue. But I will say I am totally against that. Everything else looks just fine to me.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by jmotley
Have you ever given one thought to the millions this will help?

Now I see why you are confused. You actually think this plan will help them.
You could not be more wrong.



So what if it tells a doctor that he cant charge $500,000 for a transplant. He can only charge $50,000. Aww the poor doctor cant buy his new boat

If this is what you read from the OP and this entire thread then there is no hope for you as your mind is already made up and your head in the ground.

More likely, you did not read anything and just jumped in with a typical knee-jerk reaction.

Because you would not say such a stupid thing if you have read a tiny portion of the thread.

[edit on 7/23/2009 by WhatTheory]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by jmotley
 



Have you ever given one thought to the millions this will help?


Have you thought of the millions this is going to hurt? You have a very uneducated view of how the system works.

Besides, when they are talking about rationing care, that means for everybody. All this bill does is puts the government in control over our lives and subjects us all to the same crappy rationed care that is going to be the standard for everybody.

Don't believe me, if it passes watch. Oh yea congress voted down an amendment from having illegals barred from the plan, if that tells you anything.

Edit to add - Oh yea and the politicians exempted themselves and federal employees from this bill. If that is another indicator how good this is going to be. In fact Obama just said last night, "this isn't about me, I already have health care". Yea, this bill is all about him despite what he says.

[edit on 23-7-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by lazy1981

You can pick the extreams if you chose but the opposing argument can likewise point out the extream aspects of the socialized med industry. One could say that a doc will not reattach your fingers due to cost in this system while in a Communist country the doctors may say that your work doesn't rerquire all of your digits and it would be in the nations best interest "not" to reattach them. The grass isn't always greener on the other side you know........


Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
But if they tried that crap in Canada, you'd be able to retire on the results of the lawsuit. There is a middle ground, you know.

I see your point and i"m sure that a middle ground scenario could work, "in a perfect world." But American politicians are not known for finding a middle. Hell, the only government run entity that functions well is the military. Ane even they waist large amounts of $$$$. BTW our economy probably wouldnt be able to afford this plan if we did find a great plan.


Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Yah, I know...creeping socialism. Seems to serve us pretty well, though.
I'm glad that it works well for you and yours. As for this nation, the majority don't really want anything to do with Socialism. It's just that allot of Americans have become so disillusioned with the politicains that they don't even bother to vote. But you wait and see if liberal minds keep ramroding legislation down the throughts of the American majority they will answer loud and clear at the ballot box. I just hope that we can get some Libertarians and Independants in office and not some more of the same old R/D game. And that's all it is, a game between the right and the left .







[edit on 23-7-2009 by lazy1981]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


Yes I think this plan will help millions. Especially in states like mine where they could possiblly be cutting or changing programs like CHIP. I am on the borderline of not being able to qualify for many state run programs. I have health insurense for my son through the state, While it leaves a LOT to be desired I'm thankfull for it everyday. I just had to take him to the ER because he fall and spit his head. with out that insurence I would now have an approx $8000 medical bill that I could not pay. While I myself have insurence through my job it is far to expensive to include my family. I already pay $94 a month for me. to include my son would make the number jump to $450 a month. So if the state decides to cut this program or decides to change the criteria so I nolonger qualify what do you suppose I do for my son. This is the same issue that millions of americans are in.

Now if you have a better plan to get these millions of people esspecially the children affordable healthcare I would love to hear it.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by jmotley
 



Now if you have a better plan to get these millions of people esspecially the children affordable healthcare I would love to hear it.


You want a better plan? How about making insurance companies be able to compete country wide instead having to find a plan in your state. How about cutting unnecessary programs from the government? How about enforcing the law on fraudulent uses of entitlement programs, how about cutting taxes so we have more money in our pockets, how about making it cheaper for doctors to afford mal-practice insurance.

There have been tons of idea introduced to reduce cost, but not enough people get elected to do any of these measures. Obama voted against health insurance reform when DeMint introduced legislation.

Your being had. You are blaming the people that helped it along, not the people that enabled it to happen which is the politicians.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by jmotley
 



Have you ever given one thought to the millions this will help?


Have you thought of the millions this is going to hurt? You have a very uneducated view of how the system works.

Besides, when they are talking about rationing care, that means for everybody. All this bill does is puts the government in control over our lives and subjects us all to the same crappy rationed care that is going to be the standard for everybody.

Don't believe me, if it passes watch. Oh yea congress voted down an amendment from having illegals barred from the plan, if that tells you anything.

Edit to add - Oh yea and the politicians exempted themselves and federal employees from this bill. If that is another indicator how good this is going to be. In fact Obama just said last night, "this isn't about me, I already have health care". Yea, this bill is all about him despite what he says.

[edit on 23-7-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]


If I have such an uneducated view on this please enlighten me. From my point of view This plan will put limits on how much a doctor can charge, How many times a person can go to the ER for the same issue.

1) Limit how much they can charge - Great, No more over priced operations, shots. The price of these things is outragious. $400 for a single vaccine
and thats maditory for a child to attend school along with about 30 others. I think the cheapest is about $75

2) If you limit the amount of time some one can go to the ER for the same issue that will help reduce cost. People will think twice before going for stupid reasons. Doctor I have a 98.9 degree fever I think I have ebola. I stubbed my toe and it's not swollen and I can still move it but I need a X-ray C'mon

It seems to me that the only people this plan really hurts is those who stand to profit from the old way. The people that it seems to help the people who now must wait till there damn near on their deathbed before they go to the doctor therefore increasing cost because their condition was very treatable earlyon but now requires more money that they cant pay therefore increasing the burden on the rest of the american people.

Believe me I know that this will more then likly be a disater when it first starts but it's a step in the right direction. Thats why I'm behind 95% of this bill



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by jmotley
 



Believe me I know that this will more then likly be a disater when it first starts but it's a step in the right direction. Thats why I'm behind 95% of this bill


There is no point in trying to explain it to you when you make a statement like this.

This is the same old line, of Lets do "something" just for the sake of doing "something".

You have your mind made up and nothing I say or anybody else is going to change it.



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