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Shock: Inside the Obama Healthcare Bill

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posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by WinoBot
 


Interesting that you advocate for this and have not clue how and who is going to be paying for that 1 trillion dollars that this health care bill will cost to you and me.

Yes, read my lips is not free perhaps just for illegal immigrants as so far is pointing to be.




posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


I do believe he is that stupid, there is noway this guy is smart or intelligent. The only thing he has is this retarded ideology and the quest for power.

I'm trying to figure out how this isn't going add to our problems as a country as a whole. You can't pass a bill like this and not expect it to add to the deficit, that is just unrealistic.

And as much as I hate to say it we all know where he is going to get that extra money from, he is going to take the middle class out of existence.

Welcome to communist America, where everybody is equally miserable.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by Hastobemoretolife
 


No only that but already the small business association are warning Obama that this bill the way is stands today will drive many of them out business and the employees on the unemployment lines.

Way to go Obama, still I wonder the real agenda behind this bill and why the government is so adamant to go alone with it without time to understand the pros and cons.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:37 AM
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This thread is sooooo long I don't know if this has been discussed at any length but. . .

Pg 58: Gov't will have real-time access to individuals' finances and a national ID health card will be issued



H.R. 3200 states:


‘‘(D) enable the real-time (or near real- time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which & issuance of a National ID Healthcard, may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card;

. . . . so here's your government ID card. All your information avaliable so any hack can read it. What ever happened to privacy laws, HIPPA, etc.?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


What an idiot - and sucker. You are trying to say that if you don't like this bill then you are just an Obama hater.

What a pile of drivel - thats exactly the same type of logical argument that is used by Israel when people complain of the treatment of Palestine - they respond, you just anti-semetic.

Of if you hate vote rigging, extortionists like ACORN - you'll be told, well you just hate the poor and the black.

That is purely the method used by the scum who control the government to divide society, and obscure the real issues. If they can muddy the issue by bringing in political sides, race or class division - then they never have to answer the real questions.

Your response is vicious, your attitude aligns with the scum, your point is non existent.

This kind of government mandated health care is evil - whether people receive medical care or not should never be decided by government policy - that decision should only rest with an individual and their doctor.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Ok, just another neocon kook shilling for Big Health. Nevermind, folks...nothing to see here...

[edit on 23-7-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]


Oh that's nice. Nevermind the fact that everything Mark Levine said in that video was spot on correct - you dismiss it because in your opinion he's a "neocon".

Why not challenge some of his actual arguments instead of a label?

I think we know why - because you know you can't. You have no logical arguments to counter his with. You're clinging to a universal health care system in your country that you drone over and over "WORKS!", yet when people point out the negatives you blame those on the "politicians". The system itself couldn't possibly be the problem, eh?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by tsloan
You don't "wait in line" for healthcare in any country that has a national plan

This is just plain wrong and I think you know it.

There are many, many articles refuting your bogus claims. Here is just one of them. You can google the rest.
www.nrlc.org...


Long wait times have become second nature, despite dangerous consequences. In the period between 2001 and 2006, the United Kingdom saw the median wait time increase from 44 to 51 days for hospital admission after the decision to admit had been made. In 2004, according to a BBC report, waiting times in Scotland and England were 8 months for cataract surgery, 11 months for hip surgery, 12 months for knee replacement, 5 months for repairing a slipped disk, and 5 months for hernia operations. In 2007, in 42% of the localities surveyed, hospitals had to turn women in childbirth away because their maternity wards were full.


It can also take longer than 12 hours just to be seen by a doctor once you arrive at a hospital in Britain for example.




And none of the articles you use as propaganda tell you that these patients were waiting to see a doctor they wanted to use. They had a choice to get seen just as fast as you would here in the U.S. I'm sorry pal your just wrong point blank. You turn on BBC and you DO NOT SEE people falling dead in the street, people are not rioting over health care. If your pissed because your afraid this program is going to raise taxes then just say that. Cause this program as screwed up as it is will reform health care far better than it is now I don't care how much you huff and puff about it. This is designed to bring the over-all SKY rocketing cost of insurance and medical cost down. This plan isn't designed to solve all the issues with the industry. It's a start..maybe not the best start but it will force some changes. You better condition yourself to a changing America or you will be left behind. Read "who stole my cheese" apply that to what is happening now. Im in the orthodontic laboratory industry have been for going on the better part of 13 years now. I charge my doctors $34.00 for a standard run of the mill orthodontic medical device..i.e. retainer. Thats about the standard. That doctor because of "insurance now" turns around and sells that in his treatment plan for $1500.00 now do you see the problem here? Now take that same retainer and a patient that comes in and pays WITHOUT insurance...the cost of that retainer drops to $575.00 hmmm...now isn't that just amazing...? Now you apply a government based insurance plan that will only pay a standard $725 set rate for that treatment device will force the price these doctors that are sub-charging for crap like this to come down. And you say "how" well when you a have majority who use the government based insurance you will force the Drs to accept that policy hence forcing the other carriers to bring their prices down and just like a ripple effect it will bring down patient cost. Will it happen over night? No, are there going to be set backs ..yes. This plan isn't perfect by no means. And companies pockets are going to be lined this is America the big company standard will always be first.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by Amagnon
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


What an idiot - and sucker. You are trying to say that if you don't like this bill then you are just an Obama hater.


No, I'm saying that the poster I quoted was an Obama hater, and that whatever else was on the table was immaterial to him. Did you notice his response?


Well, I thought that was obvious. I'm glad you finally caught up with everyone else.


So who is the idiot?


Your response is vicious, your attitude aligns with the scum, your point is non existent.


Oh, I donno. My response was succinct, there is nothing scum-aligned about it (nice turn of phrase there), and my points are well reasoned and relevant.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me the Antichrist, you know? Of course, up here you could like have those anger issues looked into for free, eh?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by tsloan
 


While I see what you are coming from still remember doing health care reform in a nation that is now on the highest unemployment raise with and economic crisis and expecting to target the working source in the nation to pay for this is no only going to become a mess but also the experiment will cost more jobs and bigger crisis that will help.

Because believe it or not 60% or the population of working force can not take the burden of provide for the rest of the 40% that either doesn't work or doesn't have insurance including illegal immigrants.

The approach of what the government is taking is not going to be beneficial for the working poor and the middle class.

Because in America private agendas and private interest rules over the rest of the population.

We have a corrupted system of government and before anything can work in the nation in favor of the people the corruption needs to be cleaned.

Do you see any cleansing going on in government right now? actually governmetn is becoming bigger and more expensive and we the tax payer has to support that governemtn and all its social programs, less jobs less taxable income less revenue to support deficit.

Then imagine where this bill is heading.

Unless once it takes over the healht care burden will be sold to China




posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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I've been thinking about it, and the only problem with ObamaCare is Reality.

Pesky reality! Always getting in the way of a Utopian society.

I long for the days when Democrats only screwed their interns instead of the whole country.

I voted for Obama, but this plan is a joke. I can't even believe this is even close to happening. It perplexes me to no end on why many liberals who are generally anti-establishment and anti-big corporation support the biggest corporation of them all... The Federal Government.

If the people really desire socialized health care, why not just have it run by the states? That way we can choose to either live in a state with "free" health care or not. That way, the states can establish their own systems based on the desires and the needs of their citizenry.

With the centralization of power comes standardization of services and programs, as if we are all the same with the same needs, the same wants, and the same ideals.

What happened to this country?

Sad.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by tsloan
ONCE AGAIN....Show me where that differs from any other government service that falls under the discrimination act? This is a provision that is written into every government document... You are selling me FOX news talking points here pal...gotta bring it better than that.

It's not my fault you cannot see the wording in front of you. Do you understand the wording of the text? I am not here to show you anything.


The dems actually defeated an amendment which specifically would have banned illegals from Obama's plan. Why would they do this? Hmm...
Newsmax

Plus Obama specifically said that his plan is for the 46 million who have no health insurance right? This is not in dispute. Guess what? That 46 million figure includes illegals. The 46 million is from the Census burea.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, it's true. Illegals WILL have access to Obama's health plan.

[edit on 7/22/2009 by WhatTheory]

O.k. and they don't have access to everything now? So where is the difference in the state of health care NOW and if this is passed? NONE. I don't really care for the plan myself but as a Reformist this just open my case for people on the right and left to keep right on finger pointing and making my view more acceptable once you guys drive this country into nothing.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


That this is what this bill will do drive people out of business. Then he can try to get them on the government dole, I don't think it is going to work though.

The agenda is to implement communism. It is a power grab, they want the power to break laws, steal money, personal profit, disappear people for just speaking out, etc.

The agenda is to do away with constitution and install a communist "Utopia".



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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Also, how does this logic work; Government run health care programs are the biggest problem facing us in regards to the budget, so let's expand it?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by RDR17
Also, how does this logic work; Government run health care programs are the biggest problem facing us in regards to the budget, so let's expand it?




Yes we have to put it in check. These crooked have to be made accountable. We all know that Medicare B was legislation by big pharma for big pharma. The US suffers from 500,000% markups on prescription drugs “I am not making that up either”. We have some of the poorest medical care in the world, and even a short term stay in a hospital can leave you owing a bill equivalent to the price of a new house.

Bush made some many commitments to cut taxes, but increased spending on unheard of scales. We are screwed friend, and that’s no exaggeration. If we can’t force reform we are effectively bankrupted, unless we could do away with Medicare B , which we cannot as it is now a promised service to our citizens.

We have laws in place to prevent abuse, but people do face situation like below.
Example: I’ll reattach your arm for $100,000 and you can owe me, but the followup care required to keep it will require coverage. I think it is best just to patch you up and it will only be $25,000 so smile and have a nice day.

Don’t fool yourself here. Americas future even its existence are at stake here. The American health care system must be reined in. I personally recommend nationalizing big pharma “Screw you crooks”.

I suggest everyone see the documentary Frontline: Ten Trillion and Counting



[edit on 23-7-2009 by Donkey_Dean]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by sos37 You're clinging to a universal health care system in your country that you drone over and over "WORKS!", yet when people point out the negatives you blame those on the "politicians". The system itself couldn't possibly be the problem, eh?


The drone you hear is Big Health telling you that you cannot possibly do without them, that they will protect you from the evil pinkos, and that the Canadian system doesn't work.

I'm simply saying that it works just fine in the vast, vast majority of times, and you will have legions of citizens who'd happily endorse it as opposed to the very few that feel let down.

Scata does happen...but it happens in private systems as well.

And the politicians I blame gutted the system, fired nurses, closed hospitals and handed out tax breaks to the wealthy. Sound familiar?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by sos37 You're clinging to a universal health care system in your country that you drone over and over "WORKS!", yet when people point out the negatives you blame those on the "politicians". The system itself couldn't possibly be the problem, eh?


The drone you hear is Big Health telling you that you cannot possibly do without them, that they will protect you from the evil pinkos, and that the Canadian system doesn't work.

I'm simply saying that it works just fine in the vast, vast majority of times, and you will have legions of citizens who'd happily endorse it as opposed to the very few that feel let down.

Scata does happen...but it happens in private systems as well.

And the politicians I blame gutted the system, fired nurses, closed hospitals and handed out tax breaks to the wealthy. Sound familiar?



I guaran dam tee that Canadian health care is better than Americas system. Here unless you have the cash you are sent packing friend. They will save your life, but that’s really about it. My brother was burnt severely he spent a month in a burn center in Lincoln Nebraska. After which no one would have anything to do with him because he was uninsured. So all the rehab he should have gotten he didn’t receive. He is really bad off.

He also owes the burn center nearly $200,000. Get a clue friend we have a broken system here, you may not like yours but I doubt it would have abandoned you like that.

That is what I call sub standard care friend.



[edit on 23-7-2009 by Donkey_Dean]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by Donkey_Dean
 


How the government is going to regulate and nationalize programs when the government itself can not support accountability and is ruled by private interest.

Our government neither can control spending even with this health care the deficit still growing, government is still growing and borrowing is still going.

Sorry to say this my friend, If government can not even control spending how it can control the cost of this health care bill that actually while Obama claim that only 900 billion will be necessary to start that has increased to 1 trillion dollars and by experts accounts the bill will become a whooping 4 trillion within 10 years and growing as the government budget gets more and more expensive each year .

See my point.

Actually the Obama health care is not going to reduce any cost to the government at all unless he starts to raise taxes like a run away train.

He is lying, people.

Report: Kennedy Bill Would Actually Cost $4 Trillion

Obama and the Democrats have not clue how they are going to afford this bill.


Health Systems Innovations Network, a consulting group, went ahead and estimated the full cost of a bill that included the subsidies and Medicaid expansion, and reduced the number of uninsured by 99 percent. With these assumptions, they estimated (pdf) the cost at a staggering $4 trillion over 10 years, resulting in the shift of 79 million Americans to government-run health care. The report does not include possible tax increases or spending offsets, but notes that, "this would be a challenging proposal to finance with budget neutrality."


Still 30% of the population that will still be uninsured after the bill.

spectator.org...

You can not trust a government that can not even hold accountability for spending.



[edit on 23-7-2009 by marg6043]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by Donkey_Dean

Originally posted by RDR17
Also, how does this logic work; Government run health care programs are the biggest problem facing us in regards to the budget, so let's expand it?


Yes we have to put it in check. These crooked have to be made accountable. We all know that Medicare B was legislation by big pharma for big pharma. The US suffers from 500,000% markups on prescription drugs “I am not making that up either”. We have some the poorest medical care in the world, and even a short term stay in a hospital can leave you owing a bill equivalent to the price of a new house.

Bush made some many commitments to cut taxes, but increased spending on unheard of scales. We are screwed friend, and that’s no exaggeration. If we can’t force reform we are effectively bankrupted, unless we could do away with Medicare B , which we cannot as it is now a promised service to our citizens.

We have laws in place to prevent abuse, but people do face situation like below.
Example: I’ll reattach your arm for $100,000 or patch you up for $25,000. The choice is yours, have a nice day.


I agree with you that the system is screwed, but the logic behind, "we are broke, so we must spend more" is absurd. I think we all should be able to agree on that. The problem facing this country is the the centralization and standardization of power and services. The federal government is incapable of efficiency, and thus is rendered more or less ineffective. The states should be the ones the run most of these programs not the feds. You know, the way the founders envisioned it.

I'm all for helping people that are struggling, but when we are compelled to do so, it ceases to have any personal value attached to it. Look at it like this; The amount of money we have to give the government is equivalent to the amount of time it takes an individual to earn that money. Many many people are literally working for the government January through June. Not for their family, not for the causes they deem important, not for themselves as an individual, but for the government. If people had more of their time and money, they would donate more of both to the causes that they hold near and dear to their heart. Many studies have shown this to be the case. Not only would they donate more of their time to helping the needy or cleaning up the environment, but they, like the government wouldn't have to deficit spend (ie credit cards, etc.) as much.

The federal government is a monster that sucks up the power of an individual (ie time, money, and individual rights).

Look, like I already stated, I am all for all of these programs, entitlements and such, but they should be run by the states, not the feds. That way they are directly accountable to the people, they will be forced to be more efficient, and they will be able to try many different ways of achieving the same goal, which will lead to more actual help to the people who need it most, and the states that aren't efficient will be able to learn from their mistakes and follow the lead of the states that are effective. There is nothing that the federal government runs well, sans maybe the military. So, the most efficient thing our government does is find new and better ways to kill people, so lets give them the power to run health care. LOL!

Nobody is claiming that the system doesn't need reform. It surely does. But there are much better ways of achieving the goal of a better health care system for all, and it's not through D.C.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by mikerussellus
 



. . . so here's your government ID card. All your information avaliable so any hack can read it. What ever happened to privacy laws, HIPPA, etc.?


Privacy? Who needs that we are the government and we know the best thing for everybody. Just fill out this form and everything will just fine go back to watching American Idol we will handle all your tough decisions for you.

Yea, this is ridiculous the worst part about it is the people that support this crap have no issues with the government having access to you bank account.

Bunch of # is what it is.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by Hastobemoretolife
 


This brings back a post made by a member a while back with a satiric vew of how the government is going to monitor all your health care needs.

It was so funny I wish I have a link to it, it was how you will not be able to purchase any food item without the government monitoring your health status.



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