The Rapture is a Myth. Savvy?

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by IntastellaBurst

 

I can and have had nice discussions and even agree with some of what Republican08 says, even though I find him to be a little hypocritical.

I'm still trying to find the ground which is mine, and sometimes trouble (and confuse) those, by standing with others, nearly schizophrenically, and support some grounds for another viewpoint.

Although, I am truly searching for my own ground to stand on still, which is mainly why it is a discussion still.

Still looking for main territory and what I find real, and seeing others viewpoints, and trying to understand in writing which I find best, I see how that can be seen near awkwardly.

'

Do you guys notice how these religious thread always seem to thrive. Everyone beleives their way, is the way, and attempt to show everyone else the folly in their ways despite any and all resistance.

I dont claim to know the way,..... only by what I've seen and experienced. I have a pretty good idea, ..... but there seems to be realitys in realitys, in realitys, .... and who knows how far the rabbit hole goes, ... I can only speculate on the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps were all going the same way, just on different path's. If religion serves you well, ... use it. These things we live by are simply tools for self expression .

reply to post by Republican08


Hey, to each their own. My wife has called me a Heavy metal listening, tattoo covered, Harley riding, leather vest wearing hippy. I let people live their life without impeding on them as long as they don't impede on me. You haven't imepeded on me.

I'm sure some find me to be a hypocrite now and then. People make mistakes, it only becomes a problem when they make it a habit. Which you don't.

reply to post by IntastellaBurst


I don't believe certainly that any way is the right way, although (supposedly ats members) most religious folk do.

I mean I could possibly be wrong and hinduism is right, curveball huh!

I find evolution logical, reasonably, and so on, yet i'm asked for absolute proof that religous folk aren't asked for, which is surprising, at one point can all religious believers go aha, your wrong, and damn near join together!

Although this thread was meant to be like my last was just an excerpt of reality.

Just a fact stating a fact, not meant for a quite large amount of replies, just a look really

reply to post by Republican08


Dude, I swear on my sons head I was just about to post the exact same thread. I have never read the books, but I know it is one of the most popular series out there. And I had a feeling it has alot to do with peoples interpretation of revalations.

As skewed as it is, just the fact they read a mainstream book is enough for some people to believe the ridiculous scenario.

Great Job! Good for you for being able to recognize fiction from truth.

Star and Flag!

reply to post by silent thunder


Here Here! Very excellent post. I share these sentiments exactly!

Its almost unnerving with some of the Jesus Saves stuff.

As good people as many Christians are, they can't seem to see the sky through the clouds. There is room for interpretation, and its ok to question the interpretation you have been taught.

This basic principle somehow evades most people within the Christian faith.

Although I disagree with the phrase "brainwashing", this is why it is used so often...

[edit on 22-7-2009 by open_eyeballs]

I know all about the rapture argument. Or at least a little bit. Some people say, "The Bible doesn't say the word rapture, so it is false. It's just a manmade event." Well, it isn't, according to the Bible. Yeah, there is no word rapture in the Bible. Let's get that out of the way. I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I recall there will be many Christians who will not be "raptured". What's up with that? Come on, folks. I believe Jesus had some great things to say, so did Buddha, for that matter, and Ghandi. But I give my soul to God and then I am saved from all the horrible things to happne? What good is that? How about all the good Christians go through the crap and remain Christians, and be good examples for others? This is silly stuff. I am an angry god, but since I sent my son to live amongts you all, now I am a loving god, but, ut oh, I will be back and then I will be a terrible vengeful god, and the son I sent to speak of peace and happiness will KILL ALL YOU BASTARDS! Not even. Just give me a little freakin' break. NO! This is it! You lost. You go to hell. You are over. Damn you. LOL. Burn in hell forever.

reply to post by kyred


Yeah, christianity can be a little much, ... its as if their claiming the sky is red, while wearing red sunglasses. In the end organized religion simply hinders any spiritual development.

However I can see the other side of the coin, as I was a Hardcore christian for many years, witnessing people fainting and exorcisms was natural to me, I would live and die for my faith and noone could tell me any different. I guess in the end people will change when its their time, Knock and the door will be opened, when you are ready the master will appear.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The rapture is mentioned in the Bible. The most revelevant of the three passages that it occurs in is 1 Thessalonians 4.15-17:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The rapture is seen in the phrase "caught up", which is the English translation for the Greek word harapazo. The translation for harapazo in the Latin Vulgate is "rapturo" from which we get the modern English word "rapture".

It's evident that the Bible does teach that there will be a rapture. There is agreement on that all across the theological spectrum, from Reformed theologians to the much maligned Evangelicals.

There is a lesser question on when the rapture will occur. Anyone who is completely honest with you though will tell you that the Bible gives no definitive answer on when the rapture will occur. One's opinion will stem from how they interpret and correlate the Scriptures. Many good, honest, and competent scholars and laymen have studied the Scriptures and reached different conclusions on this issue. Unfortunately, this has often lead people to instead preach the "Gospel of the Pre-(or Mid- or Post-)Tribulational Rapture" instead of the Gospel of Christ, and to reduce to calling those that don't agree with them heretics, which is a tragedy.

reply to post by octotom

The rapture is seen in the phrase "caught up", which is the English translation for the Greek word harapazo. The translation for harapazo in the Latin Vulgate is "rapturo" from which we get the modern English word "rapture".

I would like to see the hebrew wording. I would venture to guess it can have subjective definitions, and is not an indication of rapture.

catholic.com:

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event...

So it is not accepted across all theological scholarships. their is room for interpretation (as their always is) in regard to how Christs followers will "gather."

Also, no real mention of any type of rapture in the old testament.

And you cant really compare it to Rosh Hashannah.

So it is either or..

if you believe the Bible, how do you decide which to believe?

Originally posted by open_eyeballs


if you believe the Bible, how do you decide which to believe?

Nothing said near as perfectly as that statement.

If we are to take all of it personally, we'll be back to stoning children.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


They might have quite alot of help from their ET friends too. These beings are mentioned in nearly all religions and cultural creation legends...I think the PTB are working for the real "masters" of the world...

reply to post by open_eyeballs


The New Testament was written in Greek. So, the Hebrew wording in this case doesn't matter.

Also, no real mention of any type of rapture in the old testament.

That's because the rapture if for the church. The church wasn't present in the Old Testament. There is a "type" a foreshadowing of the rapture, in Enoch.

And you cant really compare it to Rosh Hashannah.

No, the rapture isn't pictured in Rosh Hashannah. Christ will fulfill the that feast, but not in the rapture.

if you believe the Bible, how do you decide which to believe?

What do you mean by "which Bible"? Are you talking about the different translations? All the translations are the same with minor differences in wording, word choices, and things like that. So, I chose the translation that I personally liked the best. Literalness in the translation and readability were important. That is why I chose the ESV as my main Bible. I also use the New Living Translation from time to time as my main paraphrase.

The whole point of the rapture is to lead people to dependency on the idea that their real proof of the path will come later. It is the usual con. It's an old con used over and over again in varied forms. The movie "The Rapture" is not a bad movie though. :->

No no, the Rapture is True. Its just not a single person will get "Raptured" because we are all hypocrites.

I say this in jest.

reply to post by Republican08

Originally posted by Republican08
I've heard quite an alarming amount of people talk about the rapture, as if it was something that is true.

*snip*

John Nelson Darby came up with the "interpretation" of the bible, and created the myth of the Rapture - Simply, which has been changed a bit through time, that either : Christians get sucked up to heaven before the tribulation, Christians get sucked up during the tribulation.

There are thousands of people who believe in “the rapture” as their escape from the tribulation. And why not? They are Christians who read and believe the Bible. There are many verses in the Bible that suggest that the last seven years of earth are under the wrath of God and that those who worship Him will not have to experience this.

As for the tired argument of John Nelson Darby being the first to believe in the rapture; may I list some before him:

Church fathers who taught the doctrine of imminency and the rapture:

Papias (60-130)

Clement of Rome (90-100)

The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)

Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)

Barnabas (100)

The Didache (100-160)

Justin Martyr (110-165)

The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)

Irenaeus (120-202)

I won’t give links, if you are interested you can google it. Once the church became an institution, this teaching died off. It was re-established by Darby in the Evangelical/Missionary Church age. Many people have tried to set dates as to when this will happen. So far, all have been wrong.

reply to post by Republican08


Hey there, Republican. This has been discussed so much on ATS/BTS that I made a quick thread here:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

One of the things mentioned in the thread refutes the accusation the rapture doctrine was originally created by Darby. There is historical evidence the rapture was believed centuries before he came along.

One thing not mentioned in my thread in detail was the correlation between the Jewish feasts and the rapture. The symbolism of the feasts is quite startling and I suggest you look into it.

There is a TON of info out there supporting the rapture. Books upon books and websites upon websites so I don't have the time to rehash it all here. But I'm pretty convinced the rapture event is biblical. There's always a small chance in my mind we could still end up being here but from what I've researched (both the skeptical side and the believing side), it looks pretty solid.

Here is a link debunking some common rapture myths:
raptureready.com...

Then check out my linked thread for some information supporting the rapture. That subject fascinated me several years ago so I spent about a year researching it and came to the conclusion the rapture is highly possible and biblical. We just have to wait and see.

One of the best scholars available on the web is also Jack Kelley of Gracethrufaith.com

gracethrufaith.com...

He has a ton of articles on it. Just scroll down and click 'older posts' to browse through his menu. I'm not 100% positive without a doubt it will happen but I'm pretty confident it will and just try to be ready if it does.

Having not read every one of the responses..... I at least put 2 cents in..
I understand you not believing in The rapture, but stating catagorically that it is a myth is just as bad as you claim some christians are in their beliefs.

If you are a thinking, reasoning person let's suppose that you have at least read enough of "The Bible" to understand what it really teaches. Suppose you might check out specifically any prophecy in the Bible. Did you ever locate one that was wrong? Maybe just slightly wrong? I don't think so.

You can believe, or not, that's you.. But to state emphatically that what you hope is true, or think is true, doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by open_eyeballs

 

That's because the rapture if for the church. The church wasn't present in the Old Testament. There is a "type" a foreshadowing of the rapture, in Enoch.

See, this is one of those contradictions in the Bible that makes no sense.

I understand that after Jesus died on the cross it is believed that the promise of gods people "expanded" to all those who believed in Jesus Christ, but it is apparent the fact that it is taught all through the old testament that Gods "people" are the Jews. It is pretty emphatic about that. So, if the rapture is biblical I would think it would have some sort of role in the old testament, maybe some vision by Joseph?. Again, my opinion is that those who like to look at the Bible from a pure literal perspective seem to have the hardest time being able to justify some of the contradictions between the new and old testament.

Also, if you look at the book of revalations, historical scholars and theologians alike are more inclined to look at the period near jesus' death as the timeframe for the tribulation and armageddon style scenario. So unless the rapture has already taken place, I wouldnt be holding my breathe for it to happen anytime soon.

What do you mean by "which Bible"?

No, I was aking how do you know which books to believe? The new testament or the old testament? Since they do not support each other in this rapture contraversy. This is somewhat rhetorical now that i know you are Christian.

I like to say, if i were to ever convert to any abrahamic religion it would be an easy choice for me. Christianity was written for the Romans. Islam was written for the arabs and judaism was the first rebellion against ancient oppression from Egypt.

Judaism being the most straight forward (in a sense) would be an easy choice for me. That being said your choice should always be respected, and Christs teaching are so ahead of their time it is obvious why so many adhere to his teachings even as apocolyptic as they are. Thanks for replying without the preaching. Its nice to have a converstaion with someone that isnt comlpetely defensive right off the bat because someone questions there beliefs.



edit to fix quotes

[edit on 22-7-2009 by open_eyeballs]