Is religion necessary?

What have we done to ourselves?

Throughout recorded history, some of the most despicable acts ever committed by humankind were done through the name of "religion" whether that be Christianity (which there are a LOT), Islam (which is the extreme version, not all Islam), Judaism, etc.

My question is why?

I have a unique viewpoint on this whole thing. I guess it stems from when I was growing up. My grandfather used to sit me down on my weekends away from school and force feed me hours of reading from the bible. To me, as a young child and eventually a teenager later on, I was like, what's the point? This is boring. As hell. So, I started to actually look into the various religious beliefs those around me held. I had a few family who were pentacostal, a few who were methodist, and some who were baptist. I looked at how each of them showed their faith in God through their religious beliefs.

As time went on, I started to ask questions people couldn't seem to give a straight answer to. Questions like, if God said thou shalt not kill, why did He kill so many throughout the course of the bible? Why blatantly wipe out two cities in what could be construed by modern science as a borderline nuclear attack? The answer: "We don't question God."

Really?

Sorry, that doesn't work for me.

So, I started looking into other relgions - Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Wicca, etc.

The only one I can even closely bring myself to become interested in is wicca, and not even that.

I'm rambling now and should probably get to my point.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm agnostic. So, I don't tend to get along to well with devout members from any religion I come across, especially when these types of discussions come up, which they frequently do. But here's the thing.

I respect someone for their beliefs.

I never try to sway them away from what they believe.

I never belittle their beliefs.

What makes me wonder is what was the point of this whole thing in the first place? I understand the pantheons of ancient Greek and Rome. At least I think I do. I think that we didn't have the advanced science and technology we do now, so we made God and Goddesses to explain what we didn't understand - and - that worked.

What scares me is how easily all those Gods and Goddesses were casually "removed" from worship world-wide and all belief placed into one God.

Was this all a massive conspiracy on the part of leaders or rulers at the time to provide some sort of change at those specific times or does it go further than that? I've heard "relgion is the opiate of the masses". Okay. Maybe that's a good quote to bring up when you're looking at a pack of kids in sunday school or churchgoers - but what about people travelling hundreds of miles in full armor to do battle over a city? What about killing hundreds of women for the possibility they "might be witches"? What about strapping 100 pounds of explosives to yourself and walking into a crowded market?

What's really going on here?

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why?

I take pride in the fact I don't follow a religion. I pose another question for anyone who may read this: what does your religion mean to you, and why does it allow for such things to happen? Is it not possible for someone to live a good life, get along, provide for a family, love his wife, and die? Is that not enough to go to a good afterlife? Is it not possible to acknowledge God's existence and He and you be comfortable with that?

Finally, how long will it be before God is too replaced by a better scientific understanding of how the universe works?

Is freedom necessary? Just look at all the bad things people have done in the name of freedom. Look at the 2 wars GWB started in the name of "promoting freedom".

I separate what people do in the name of something, and what that something really is. If I didn't, I might actually believe GWB was actually promoting freedom and other nonsense.

I recommend the same with religion. If I couldn't separate "Christians" from Jesus, I'd not be able to even look at a bible.

reply to post by badmedia


That's not really on topic, nor does it answer my questions, but I guess - thanks.

You could probably start up a whole thread w/ that line of thought. Good line of thought actually, but I don't want to discuss it with you on this particular thread.

I'd like some answers.

and stars and flags too

That'd be good.

Not the usual 1-2 smartass comments I normally get before my threads dispapear into the void...

Has it been 2 months since the last "Is religion necessary" thread already?


Has it been 2 months since the last "Is religion necessary" thread already?


Obviously it isn't necessary for you, but the guy down the road from you might think differantly.

Live and let live.

See you in a couple more months.

Is that better mf_luder?

[edit on 21-7-2009 by jd140]

www.abovetopsecret.com...

In that thread of almost 200 replies, I gathered that most people don't need it yet still follow it. I guess only for fear of burning for eternity.

Your gonna get jumped on man for sure.

no ... I dont have religion and that doesnt mean that I dont believe there are something more than flesh ...

stick this and close topic!!!


well, lets add some more: every person should research and think in the meaning of life ...

thats our problem, everyone seems to listen to 1 or 2 guys, so every person stops thinking and that is just SICK ... I just cannot stand a person that believes that only his religion should be the "RIGHT" one ... man, there are no religion when you die, well, something happens but REALLY, lets start thinking and stop following!!

reply to post by jd140


There is a difference between "Atheist" and "Agnostic."

Learn that difference before you start making a fool out of yourself and calling people names.

I never said I didn't believe in God.

reply to post by Faiol


I totally agree with you.

As a matter of fact, I think I pretty much said the exact same thing in another thread.

reply to post by mf_luder


Nope didn't make a fool of myself. If making a mistake means you are a fool then this world is in deeper trouble then I thought.

I will edit, even though it doesn't really change the point I had made in my post. I will do it though so you will stop your hissy fit.


And I thought you didn't think religion is necessary.

Originally posted by mf_luder

What's really going on here?

A control mechanism is operating on the people. It may have different names over different times, but it's the same thing. Aquire wealth and power at someone elses expense

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why?

Because people are fearful and eager to accept anything that makes them feel better.

reply to post by jd140


lol

Hissy fit.

Why don't you go ahead and actually address some of the questions and issued raised in the post?

Otherwise get off my thread before I report you.

How does that sound?

I don't think religion is necessary at all.

A (THE) IST

THE - GOD

A - Anti

Here.

In case you can't do it yourself:

en.wikipedia.org...

There's a bit there about the non-belief in deities, i.e. "God".

en.wikipedia.org...

There's a bit there about the truth value in relgious claims being unknowable or unprovable.

But then again, a lot of people get us confused. I don't blame you for lack of research ability.

But back to my point.

Address the issues in my post or leave. You're worse than a heckler at a comedy show, because this gives you the ability to be MORE annoying than you probably have a right to be.

Originally posted by mf_luder
Throughout recorded history, some of the most despicable acts ever committed by humankind were done through the name of "religion"

They may well have been committed in the name of religion, but that doesn't mean that these acts are truly representative of the values of that religion.

This is a significant thing which many people fail to realise or acknowledge. Just because someone perpetrates atrocities in the name of, or under the banner of Christianity or Islam or whatever, doesn't mean that these atrocities are "of" Christianity or Islam.

It takes discernment and intelligence to look at it all a little closer rather than wave flags of prejudice or contempt and bleat "religion is bad, look at what they've done now!"

The Crusades weren't representative of the Christian message, just as the modern interpretation of "Jihad" isn't representative of the spiritual struggle that it most purely represents.

I totally empathise with what you're saying, though. There are horrors in this world of humankind's making. They have been done in the name of politics, religion, and just plain old ignorance. The end justifies the means for the perpretrators, and they will use whatever means (religion et al) that they deem necessary.

reply to post by mf_luder



I addressed your question in my first post. You didn't like it.

My wife is religous and I am not. I go to mass with her a few times a year and I see it makes her feel better about herself.

I may not find it necessary, but as I stated in my first post the guy down the street might disagree with you and me.

Deal with it.

If you don't care for this post either then report me. Hell, I should report you for your off topic post.

Originally posted by mf_luder
reply to post by badmedia

 

That's not really on topic, nor does it answer my questions, but I guess - thanks.

You could probably start up a whole thread w/ that line of thought. Good line of thought actually, but I don't want to discuss it with you on this particular thread.

I'd like some answers.

and stars and flags too

That'd be good.

Not the usual 1-2 smartass comments I normally get before my threads dispapear into the void...

Answers to what then? I thought the question was if religion was necessary? I was just pointing out that you aren't basing your opinions on the right things in relation to that question.

As you are focusing on what people do in the name of it, then you are basically just choosing what you want to see. As you could just as easily point out those who do good things in the name of it.

The version of Christianity you know is based only on people who do things in the name of it. And that version of Christianity is here because they killed and tortured anyone who didn't go along with it. Others who accept it do it because they only focus on the good things people do in the name of it.

I personally don't belong to a religion, but I am a big fan of understanding and wisdom, and I find plenty of that in Jesus. But you'll never see it if you are only look at what religion does in the name of god/jesus etc.

So I'm not sure why it's not on topic.

My background sounds much like yours ludor, though I was rabidly christian for quite some time.


Here's how I see things. Take it for what it's worth... my opinion


there's something that everyone is essentially trying to find. A center point. This center point can be considered "god", "the source", "nirvana", "total knowledge", WHATEVER you wish to call it... it's at the core of what all of us seek.

it is, in essence, what could be considered "god".

Now... the thing is, each person has a path that they are walking on, totally independent of anyone else. Why? can't get from point A to B by following someone else's map, when you're starting from a different spot. Make sense? Take the same steps they do, and you're likely to fall off a cliff somewhere.


Anyhow...

You can look at this all as being a big wheel. That center point that I spoke about is the center of the wheel, the hub. Each possible pathway is a spoke on the wheel. Each of us is on one of those spokes.


Some people find christianity is the spoke for them. Some people islam. Some buddhism, hinduism, tao, science, flying spaghetti monster...

Whatever your own path is, it's what is right for you, and you're on it for a reason.

That does NOT mean that someone else's path is incorrect. They're just on a different spoke than you are. That doesn't make you superior to them... All things are leading to the same place. No spoke is stronger than the other, to be that way, the wheel would be out of balance and we all fall down.



So... yes. Religion IS necessary. FOR SOME. For others, no.

HOWEVER... there ARE people out there who are on a path where they feel the need to take advantage of people. Or spread hatred. Or what have you. Those people will find the path of least resistance, and use it to do what they will.

That is an incorrect way of living, and also causes imbalance... soon enough they'll pay the price, by falling off that wheel. They're not meant for it. So be it.


ANYHOW... I hope all of this makes sense, and perhaps eases your spirit some. I leave people to their path, and wish them luck on it, and much love either way they go (we all need that). BUT.. i will say this.. I will not tolerate those who use religion as an outlet for their hatred... Those people I WILL call out, and WILL put into place. There's no need for hate in any circumstance.

The short response is religions are necessary. However, religions that claim to be the only path to salvation or some crap like that can be harmful (obviously). We need religions with a God so the God can be our focus point, however the God should only be for concentration and not worship. We need that point of concentration because there is a spirit world, and we have the power to access it.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by stevedel0]

Is "religion" necessary? I firmly believe that if the word wasn't twisted into Christianity or other major belief structures, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. My thoughts on that are clearly posted here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

As for our need to follow some basic universal guidlines preached in certain books throughout time, then the answer is *yes* indeed. IMO The bible is the best source of such a path (including the new testament) however, if you allow *man* to corrupt your path, then it's better to believe nothing at all. Just look at any basic guidelines of *any* so-called "religion" and you will see beneath all the corruption lies a universal meaning. Tho, it's CLEAR that man always has to find a way to make things confusing.

Does anyone remember that passage that says "For God is not the author of confusion" ?
1 Corinthians 14:33

I have debated "religion" for over 15 years and I have found that *man* always corrupts everything that can possibly be corrupted. Look at how many people are absolutely disgusted by "church" these days? Wow someone really messed up and it wasn't God.







[edit on 21-7-2009 by Wookiep]


[edit on 21-7-2009 by Wookiep]

...hey, mf (for some reason that makes me laugh), it appears that you have a bad rep with some folks on here... i havent been on ats long enough to determine if its deserved or not... time will tell... so, lets get to your questions...

Originally posted by mf_luder
Throughout recorded history, some of the most despicable acts ever committed by humankind were done through the name of "religion" (snipped)

My question is why?

...gosh, have you never read How To Be A Con 101?... goes like this: if it works on a dozen, it'll work on hundreds... if it'll work on hundreds, it'll work on thousands... if it'll work on thousands, it'll work on millions... (you get the idea)...

I have a unique viewpoint on this whole thing. (snipped)

...your viewpoint isnt unique... i've heard/read the same and similar a gazillion times... even your viewpoint that your viewpoint is unique isnt unique... its just another indicator of how myopic and self-absorbed society is...

I respect someone for their beliefs.

...theres too many whackos in the world for me to respect folks just because of what they claim to believe...

I never try to sway them away from what they believe.

...never?... really?... so, if the leaders of your country decided that anyone who was not a xtian should die or be exiled, you wouldnt try to sway them from their belief?...

I never belittle their beliefs.

...maybe not face to face, one on one - but - your opening post was most definitely belittling to anyone who subscribes to the religions you snipped at... i dont give a hoot - didnt offend me a bit - just pointing out a reality that, apparently, you cant see...

Was this all a massive conspiracy on the part of leaders or rulers at the time to provide some sort of change at those specific times or does it go further than that?

...already explained that - if a con will work once, it'll work twice... if it'll work twice, it'll work dozens of times and on and on and on and on...

Is it not possible for someone to live a good life, get along, provide for a family, love his wife, and die?

...all of that happens every single day, all over the world...

Is that not enough to go to a good afterlife?

...why isnt it good enough just to be good because thats the right way to behave?... why do you have to be good so that you might reap a reward in an existence that no one can prove exists?...

Finally, how long will it be before God is too replaced by a better scientific understanding of how the universe works?

...as long as there are people who believe there are rewards to be had in an unverifiable existence (afterlife), there will be a god of some kind who gets blamed and/or praised for all that happens... fantasy begats fantasy...

Originally posted by mf_luder
Is it not possible for someone to live a good life, get along, provide for a family, love his wife, and die? Is that not enough to go to a good afterlife? Is it not possible to acknowledge God's existence and He and you be comfortable with that?

Finally, how long will it be before God is too replaced by a better scientific understanding of how the universe works?

I think, or at least I am HOPING that we are all okay just being "good" people. I was raised in religious schools all my life. My parents weren't particularly religious, and we barely went to church.

But I do believe in God. To me, when I see beauty in this Earth, I see God. I know that there is bad here too, but I believe that God allows for all good and bad events to occur in our mortal lives for learning purposes.

But I am not a religious person. I am a spiritual person. I believe that God puts a "veil" of forgetfulness over our consciousness when we incarnate to a mortal life. I think that He does that so that we will be given a better opportunity to grow and learn from ourselves. I believe that he is a loving, all-understanding God, and that He would understand our confusion with religion and all the good/bad things it causes. God made us forget EVERYTHING when we came to Earth, so it's supposed to be a journey. I think when Jesus was asked what the most important thing was, he replied, "Above all else, love one another". If you do that, I think you're good.

At this point in my life, I don't particularly like religion. Many of the "very religious" people that I know happen to attend a lot of services, but don't live a Christ-like life after church. I know there are many exceptions to this observation, though.

I don't think God will really be "replaced". I think that we will understand the Universe better, and our definition of God will change.

Historically, whenever "religion" has been eliminated in a society it has always been a pre-cursur to genocide or mass murder of a set or group of peoples. Religion, not withstanding it's problems, does however provide a much needed "restraint" on evil within society. History proves it.

Yes, we need religion to restrain evil from wicked men who wish to enslave us, maybe that is why the elimination of religion is a number one priority for the NWO.