ATF to Montana: 'You will respect our authoritah!'

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posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
how does requiring gun makers to have licences and to put a serial number on the guns they make, infringe on the second amendment? if this was not done, you could have anyone with a little money, manufacture and distribute guns. maybe if black, mexican, chinese, or muslim gangs were in montana manufacturing guns, with no oversight, people might think differently.


Those groups you mentioned wouldn't last 2 weeks in Montana or TN!

The requirements you mentioned are indeed important and appropriate. They are not at issue. The new laws restricting any "private" sales of guns or ammunition are a BIG problem! The ATF asserting authority where they have none is a problem! The fact that they would put into writing that their authority usurps the state's authority is a big problem!




posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
how does requiring gun makers to have licences and to put a serial number on the guns they make, infringe on the second amendment?


If it stands in the way of anyone keeping and bearing arms it's an infringement.


if this was not done, you could have anyone with a little money, manufacture and distribute guns. maybe if black, mexican, chinese, or muslim gangs were in montana manufacturing guns, with no oversight, people might think differently.


Right. Because as it is criminals are all sorts of concerned about serial numbers and having their firearms registered to them.

Like anyone with some sheet metal and a drill and vice grips cant make a receiver? The hardest part to make is the barrel (if properly rifled) and those arent stamped with serial numbers or require any sort of special license to deal. God bless the morons at the ATF and their useless laws and regs. I mean useless only when relating to illegal use and criminal ownership. Against the law-abiding they work very well.

There is no oversight whatsoever relating to criminal use and ownership. Pretending there is shows a grand naivety regarding gun laws and their enforcement. The ATF/fed doesnt care one bit about criminal gun use. Through practice and policy it is clear they are only concerned about the law-abiding and their collections/uses.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
how does requiring gun makers to have licences and to put a serial number on the guns they make, infringe on the second amendment? if this was not done, you could have anyone with a little money, manufacture and distribute guns. maybe if black, mexican, chinese, or muslim gangs were in montana manufacturing guns, with no oversight, people might think differently.


Yeah exactly...I'm from Australia and so right there let me say I don't know all your laws and regulations but from the sounds of it, it's only so that tabs are kept on who has what and where, gunwise that is.

I would have also expected a fed law to supersede a state law...it's like this down here...well no, the states look after certain areas and the fed's other stuff.

BTW, I have no issue with people having guns. The majority don't do the wrong thing, they're licensed (yeah?) and things run fine. Then you get someone who has obtained a gun on the blackmarket and can do wtf they like.

I say this as these days if I go to the pub and someone wants to cause trouble with me I don't want to come back at them cause who knows if the douche has a gun or a knife.

Now I read that letter to the FFL's and it seemed as jimmyx said it's only a license thing and no hint of the next step being "no guns for you! one year!"...yeah even the soup nazi had to get a run


Now as I said, I'm not from the US and so don't know all that much about your laws or constitution but on the surface it seems innocent and not a read between the lines situation.

I read the whole thread and firstly congratulations to me
but it really seems there's so many out there really annoyed with the govt there and willing to overthrow it if it pushes much harder back. That's a big move to make but if they're seriously infringing on your personal freedoms then is it naive to suggest getting a petition going round, calling a meeting with your governor and not stop pestering him before he stands up for you?

Thanks guys. Would rather constructive criticisms than flaming if possible


Take care guys.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by TheAssociate
 



The state of Montana, and every other which received this letter should be sending a letter back stating that the Second Amendment SUPERCEDES ANY, AND EVERY FEDERAL LAW, even if the Feds sell their behinds to some foreign organization...

These a-holes have been breaking the LAW OF THE LAND aka the CONSTITUTION and the BILL OF RIGHTS within in, which are more important than any laws the Feds pass trying to restrict, and, or ban our Second Amendment Right.

These people will try anything, and everything, and I wouldn't put it past them to even try to get the names of several of us from the website admins just for making these sort of statements.


[edit on 21-7-2009 by ElectricUniverse]



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 10:10 AM
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IX Amendment:

“ The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ”

X Amendment:

“ The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ”

It clear that our government is overstepping its bounds with the many laws they are using to try to prove that they have more power than the states. Fact is only under international commerce do they have power over the states! Interstate Commerce was rammed down our throats in the 20's and there is a large contingent of people who want this clause rescinded. It is the back door to the governments power grab amongst the states!
Zindo



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by ZindoDoone
IX Amendment:

“ The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ”

X Amendment:

“ The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ”

It clear that our government is overstepping its bounds with the many laws they are using to try to prove that they have more power than the states. Fact is only under international commerce do they have power over the states! Interstate Commerce was rammed down our throats in the 20's and there is a large contingent of people who want this clause rescinded. It is the back door to the governments power grab amongst the states!
Zindo

I went as far as writing a letter to the ATF administrater,Mr.Carroll. I stated the facts you presented here. The ATF has no authority to dictate policy about intra-state commerce. That is the pervue of the state plain and simple. It is noteable that in Tennessee the letters were sent to FFL dealers,and not to the Legislature or the Governor. This will be tested in court!



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 10:26 AM
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If it was meerly about personal liberties and states rights there would not be a war. Any true conflict arises from a desire for loot and control of cheap labor also known as loot. Until that enters the picture there is no civil war. Civil unrest will come from the hungry, social outcasts. ( no propaganda machinery )

In the case of the USA vs the rest of the world, we just don't have enough cheap labor to go around. As a group, we the citizens will not band together en masse to deny the feds their loot. errr taxes, fees, and licenses ...you know ...loot. The history of conflicts around the globe have the same root every time. We are taught that we are fighting for freedom, against oppression, saving the world, whatever. Our federal governing body....btw, bought and paid for, and controlled through an intensive lobbying campaign by the corporations....are puppets. They bring us to war to ensure profits, to loot other countrys, securing corporate contracts, ensuring cheap labor for said corporations. The scary part is when or where will these guys decide they have a way to profit from creating civil war on us?

Unless you are severely oppressed, hungry, poor, destitute, denied access to the machine at every turn you will not cause any amount of unrest. Ask our brothers and sisters in the ghettos. Do they cross the police because they want to be criminals? Does that mean its everyone in that situation? No, some have turned it to a way of life, motivated by yes, profit, food.

Summarily, our country has a long way to go before we as a population are oppressed enough to say no more and fight to the death for it. Find the profit and you'll find the motivation.

Flame on baby... truth sucks, ascribing social ideals to conflict....happens in barfights, not war of any kind




PG



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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Funny how the Examiner website is down all of the sudden.
Ofcourse it could just be maintenence, but I gotta be honest, that in these modern days I haven't seen a news site that would let itself go down completely, even for maintenence.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:09 AM
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as far as a civil war is concerned, a good percentage of the sheeple will not turn a gun on the gov. they value their brainwashed ideas too much. the people who watch american idol, the nanny, or wife swap. those people care only of going to work and discussing american idol, not the state of our country, and the rapid rate in which we are losing our freedoms. if they can still go to best buy and purchase a flat screen tv, well, what is there to be concerned about! say for instance, the price of fuel. even when it was at its highest price, the people grumbled, but filled their suv tanks any way. the media, in my opinion, is to blame. they tell the people what is cool and what is not. if there were rappers and rock stars telling people that sex, big wheeled trucks, gold teeth, expensive clothes, and violence was uncool, well then the kids would think so too. when the media covers MJ's funeral, and puts it ahead of obama visiting the heads of russia, well you get my point! we are all in trouble!!!!



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:16 AM
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We are defined by our Constitution as a free people with rights and liberties to maintain it by being free to exercise control of a government which you have chosen.

We now are witnessing a overt and systematic change in the ability to manage our government and it will establish us in an untenable position of being a people whose freedom was lost to apathy and greed.

You who stand today to witness this, will not be around to describe it accurately to our future generations because this history,
will be re-written by those we have elected to a position of servitude for the people, that have now manifest themselves into a proxy of power that will never, never allow you the freedom to choose your destiny given by our Constitution as Liberty but rather, will choose for you a path of social restrictions that will cost you a debt burdened fee you will never be able to repay. Ever.

This is our generation’s responsibility, to recover and keep a promise of action and defense of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

For those who have served in defense of our country there is an oath that is not constrained by time in the service, rather it endures throughout your life and reminds those that do choose to serve to protect and defend our Constitution from enemies both foreign AND domestic, to uphold OUR liberties from the tyranny of a government or people who would usurp that power to their own goals.

Step forward or step back. but choose you must. Defend or retreat.

Go home and, if you have the courage, tell your family and friends your choice …. and Why.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by LiquidMirage
 


Is it really gone so far that the only way to get rid of the facist elements is another war? It seems like that every day more and more but is there anything that can be done other than war?



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


Ahhh yes....I'll tell you how it infringes on the 2nd ammendment. By requiring a licence to sell guns, they turn it into a "privledge" and not a right.

As far as serial numbers are concerned. The only use they serve is to track the gun back to the SHOP that sold it.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by pizzaguy
If it was meerly about personal liberties and states rights there would not be a war. Any true conflict arises from a desire for loot and control of cheap labor also known as loot. Until that enters the picture there is no civil war. Civil unrest will come from the hungry, social outcasts. ( no propaganda machinery )

In the case of the USA vs the rest of the world, we just don't have enough cheap labor to go around. As a group, we the citizens will not band together en masse to deny the feds their loot. errr taxes, fees, and licenses ...you know ...loot. The history of conflicts around the globe have the same root every time. We are taught that we are fighting for freedom, against oppression, saving the world, whatever. Our federal governing body....btw, bought and paid for, and controlled through an intensive lobbying campaign by the corporations....are puppets. They bring us to war to ensure profits, to loot other countrys, securing corporate contracts, ensuring cheap labor for said corporations. The scary part is when or where will these guys decide they have a way to profit from creating civil war on us?

Unless you are severely oppressed, hungry, poor, destitute, denied access to the machine at every turn you will not cause any amount of unrest. Ask our brothers and sisters in the ghettos. Do they cross the police because they want to be criminals? Does that mean its everyone in that situation? No, some have turned it to a way of life, motivated by yes, profit, food.

Summarily, our country has a long way to go before we as a population are oppressed enough to say no more and fight to the death for it. Find the profit and you'll find the motivation.

Flame on baby... truth sucks, ascribing social ideals to conflict....happens in barfights, not war of any kind

PG


OUTSTANDING PRESENTATION! I can think of about 10 other threads that you need to repost this response to!

The Australian guy was right too! The Fed is pushing just hard enough to get away with it. There won't be any uprising as long as most people are still very comfortable in their situation.

If the Fed gets much pushier, or if the economy gets much worse, or God Forbid, both, then we are poised to make a firm and decisive physical movement against TPTB! Hopefully this will be an overall political takeover, but I fear it will be a violent one instead!

I am with the Patriots either way!



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:32 AM
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Eventually people will wake up and see...I bet you if and when we lose our rights to own guns then people will see...for now...everyone's just trying to get by.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by PsykoOps
 


There might be if we could trust that our elective process hasn't been circumvented by nefarious means. Most of us on both sides seem to think that this is the case. The taking of the census and putting it under the auspices of the Administration instead of a separate entity is not the way to go. It only furthers the idea that an armed insurrection is a just response among those that feel disenfranchised from the constitution they believe in!

Zindo



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by PsykoOps
reply to post by LiquidMirage
 


Is it really gone so far that the only way to get rid of the facist elements is another war? It seems like that every day more and more but is there anything that can be done other than war?


"SACK THE INCUMBENT" The Tea Parties are promoting this strategy! Encourage everyone around you to vote for a complete rookie or unknown! At the very least, do not vote for the status quo! If this doesn't work, violence will have to be the next step!



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by PsykoOps
reply to post by LiquidMirage
 


Is it really gone so far that the only way to get rid of the facist elements is another war? It seems like that every day more and more but is there anything that can be done other than war?


"SACK THE INCUMBENT" The Tea Parties are promoting this strategy! Encourage everyone around you to vote for a complete rookie or unknown! At the very least, do not vote for the status quo! If this doesn't work, violence will have to be the next step!


GRRRR Thats how we got to this in the first place! Every president that was elected in the past 25 years has been so because they were "ANTI STATUS QUO". Then they turn around and clink there expensive wine classes the elite after they are elected

We need to just dissolve the presidency keep the congress. The people become the president by direct vote only! No law passes without a vote!

[edit on 21-7-2009 by Spartak_FL]



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by Spartak_FL
 



GRRRR Thats how we got to this in the first place! Every president that was elected in the past 25 years has been so because they were "ANTI STATUS QUO". Then they turn around and clink there expensive wine classes the elite after they are elected


LOL! True. But, I think the intention is to take it to every level! Sack your Mayors, Commissioners, State Reps, US Reps, Senators, Judges, etc.

The Congress is worse than the president! They spend entire careers up in D.C. messing things up. They get recycled to cabinet positions and advisory positions. They sit on boards and panels.

We have to send a very concerted and clear message that we do not want career politicians! We want REPRESENTATION!

Making this statement in the elections is much preferable to making it face to face with armament to back up the demands! But, either way will eventually be effective!



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 12:42 PM
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The ONLY thing that trumps states rights is the US Constitution, to which ever State's constitution it's self must be in line with the US Constitution.. Federal "Laws" mean nothing to a State, only interstate dealings can be regulated.

Montana should do as follows. Raise fist. Extend middle finger. Tell the ATF to have a nice day.

This article reminded me of the story from CA where Federal drug enforcers were prosecuting a dying woman for smoking pot, even though State laws say she can.

The Federal Government is a run away tyrant that needs to be put in it's place.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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The average moron doesn't give a damn about the Constitution, they don't even know the U.S. is a Republic... They all think we live in a Democracy.

Sorry but the sad truth is that people will be herded into cattle cars still believing they're going to camp.

Now if you really want to start a revolution... Take away their cable - then watch for the fireworks.


[edit on 21-7-2009 by SaraThustra]





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