Dear Skeptics...

reply to post by TheMythLives


See, your way is cool with me..... I too am fascinated by many subjects I may not believe in, so I would LOVE to read more about them....when you sit back and observe, a LOT more can come out, then when everyone just jumps on them and shuts them down...

I have to admit though, it is getting a LOT better....

The scientific skeptics have a better style like that. They are the ones who bring balance....

I guess the skeptics I am thinking of are more troll like, just interupting and disrupting...

I myself am a skeptic about most things, but like to read about them...

I guess it is the troll types that wreck it?

reply to post by TLomon


I don't have much more to add, but gave you a star on that one...THAT must be the word I was looking for... debunkers!

Originally posted by mellisamouse
reply to post by ogbert

 

exactly!

It brings me back to the same thing I often will use as an example.....

Say someone was raped, but was too scared to come forward, then the rapist dies, that person finally gets to a point they need to talk about it, and there really is NO WAY to prove it, what woulod happen if everywhere they went for help, the person said...

"don't talk about it yet, until you can PROVE IT etc...... that person can't PROVE it, they just want some friggin help!

The difference is rape is a known event with proof it exists, so in this case she does need to prove that rape actually happens, just that it happened to her and she needs help.

Aliens/abductions are not a known event and a person can just as easily say they were attacked by demons, or globs of light as saying aliens abducted them. First we need proof that aliens actually exist then we can accuse them of abductions.

I think you're more referring to a debunker than a skeptic. I think of the former as somebody who has made up their mind and generally attempts to insult or derail a thread or idea. A debunker doesn't investigate, IMO.

I think a true skeptic is your friend in this instance. I think we need skeptics to help us measure the evidence, and filter out the events that might be best explained by known phenomenon. A skeptic wants to look at evidence and has not already formed a conclusion.

I am convinced that the abduction phenomenon is a real one for some people. That doesn't mean that I am inclined to accept every claim on face value. That was a generalization, and not meant to be applicable to any person or thread in particular. I believe there is sufficient evidence to support the idea that people are being abducted. I don't know what it means, I don't know who or what is doing it, or where (when?) they are from. I remain open to many ideas, even those I consider having a low probability of being true i.e. shape-shifting reptoids. I don't BELIEVE there are shape-shifting reptoids on Earth. I don't KNOW if it is true or not.

Originally posted by wx4caster
unfortunately just as there are skeptics who refute all information that could possibly sway them, there are believers who refute all information even some that could prove there are alternate explanations. there fore you are going to run into all types

Both of these types of people have strong beliefs - they simply believe opposing things.

Skeptics are just believers - their faith is based on the mainstream view.

My opinion is both are wrong - belief is unfounded - nothing can be proven or disproven.

Only evidence can be accumulated - from it theories can be devised - once you have a theory, then you keep measuring it against more evidence to see if it continues to be valid within the original context.

At no point does a theory ever become true - neither does it become false - it is simply an understanding of the meaning of knowledge within that context.

If people stopped believing, then there would be more impartial treatment of evidence.

Originally posted by Amagnon
Skeptics are just believers - their faith is based on the mainstream view.

someone is in dire need of a dictionary.

Who cares what people think?

Why all the worry about all us skeptics? I know it bothers many of your that we have a hard time turning half our brain off and seeing animals on Mars and robot parts in every Moon photo. But you have to remind yourself, us skeptics are in the minority around here, and not going to grow anytime soon because after a while we just end up cycling out as others cycle back in.

So, you want the truth of this subject to come out? You want this stuff to be taken seriously enough for that to happen? Are you upset at how this subject is represented to the casual observer?

Well, I'll tell you this: Things would not be near as laughable as they are today if skeptics were in the majority for all these years. Seriously consider that.

Why is it OP that every week there's a new thread pretty much exactly like this or to the effect of "skeptic vs believer"? Did the four hundred threads exactly like it not get the answer? if all these threads were instead in-depth reviews and dissections of cases from the "unknowns" section of government ufo studies, perhaps there'd be fewer people who believe extraterrestrial intelligences are impossible explanations for the witnessed phenomena.

perhaps we'd get a little closer to discovering exactly what this phenomena is. perhaps we could then all work together in deciphering the anomalous data and getting real answers from the governments around the world that seem(through foia documents) to know something the rest of us don't.


but then again, that would probably cut down on the stars and flags that these kind of threads seem to get, and the cross faction bickering that the OP's of these types of thread seem to crave. and we couldn't have that could we?

reply to post by Cagalli


I'd like to say "I don't care", but that wouldn't be the truth. I care what people think. I just don't care about the opinions that seem to leave no room for possibility.

This SHOULD be something that we can talk about and support those that believe they've been subjected to this experience -- at least until we have evidence to the contrary. Or, at least support their telling of the event, without rancor. I believe it takes a lot of sand to subject oneself to the rigors of public opinion. Yes, I empathize, a very subjective emotion.

I completely understand where the OP is coming from. It can seem so very cruel to insult people who have the courage to talk about what they believe has happened to them, only to have others call them "fake" and "frauds".

I try to be a very rational and logical person. In order for me to believe something, I need to see proof. Not just photographs but actual scientific work. And unfortunately, nothing exists in this manner for UFOs, aliens, or even those who have come into contact with aliens. There are several reasons for this:

A) Accounts of aliens differ from person to person
B) There is hardly ever any actual proof other than testimonies
C) When proof is provided, it usually takes in the form of:

Drawing
Fuzzy photo
Fuzzy video

I can go on and on but that is the gist of it. If you want to make someone believe something, then give us something worth believing which makes sense and contains actual strong irrefutable proof. If you've experienced aliens, steal an alien weapon, a piece of their ship, the location of thier planet, SOMETHING.

I find it really hard to believe people when their 'proof' is just a testimony which doesn't even make sense and also contradicts what other people have said in the past about aliens.

And the reason why I, a skeptic, feel so strongly about disproving things is merely because I get annoyed reading what people are saying. I get annoyed only because it's really depressing, and frustrating, to know there is someone who is intelligent out there who is being totally irrational. And I hope, by disproving them, they come to realize what is going on. If they don't get it after the initial statement, then it's a lost cause.

I'm all for the search of alien life and do believe they exist, intelligent ones at that. But I really want to stick to a realistic approach to the discussion rather than something so far-fetched as being abducted or pointing out fuzzy pictures and calling them structures. It just doesn't make sense :\

If you really want to find out the truth about the moon, aliens, or the universe in general, make money and invest in space exploration/space tourism companies. Or become a scientist. Or an astronaut. Get involved in some way. I know I learned a lot simply by making friends with people who work at NASA.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by CidCaldensfey]

[edit on 20-7-2009 by CidCaldensfey]

Originally posted by mellisamouse

Originally posted by JScytale
I'm a skeptic who has had a UFO experience that left no doubt in my mind extraterrestrials exist.

Why am I a skeptic? Because the UFO scene is filled to the brim with nonsense and conjecture, and I want to get to real truths - that's why. Approach every claim with a skeptical mind and the few that stand the test of science and logical thought are worth betting your reputation on. Debunk the blatantly stupid theories and maybe you'll save a handful of people from going down the wrong road.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by JScytale]

While I also TOTALLY understand and agree with the logic here, and yes we do need skeptics when people are making wild claims, BUT if the thread reads......

Need some help with my lepracaun harrassment, and a bunch of others believe in leprechauns, why not just OBSERVE those conversations and see where they will go?

I need some help with my Leprechauns, every time I go to get my camera, they disappear!

Seriously, you ask a valid question. I can't speak for everyone else but I'll share my perspective. First, I think everyone should be a skeptic, in the sense that since you agreed there are hoaxers out there, we need to have some filters in place to weed out some of the hoaxes, that's one of the things skeptics do so ALL of us need that skeptic filter, even the believers.

As for the alien abduction, if I were abducted by aliens, and had no evidence to show for it, I might post about it here, but I would totally understand if others were skeptical. So I may know it happened, but I wouldn't get too uptight if people didn't believe me, I really can't expect them to.

Skeptics can say I don't have any evidence so I can't prove it, and they would be right, well I don't see anything wrong with that, if it's true. Skeptics shouldn't say "it never happened" because they don't really know that for sure. So in answer to your question, I think somewhere in there is where skeptics should draw the line.

I found this post by Springer which discusses some aspects of the ATS position on this question:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Some selected relevant quotes:

The idea of shutting someone down who is sharing a personal experience (whether it's real or not) is just not in the spirit of collaboration or community. All it does is divide and conquer. When our fellow members share their personal experiences with us it's no different than that chatty Uncle or Aunt that used to go on about their life stories at the dinner table, you don't demand proof from them, if you're interested you listen quietly and ask questions politely and if you're not interested you simply tune them out.

All other aspects of Ufology covered on ATS are absolutely open for verification and as solid an effort as we can muster at getting evidence.

My point was/is the personal stories of our Members are exactly that, personal stories. That being said it needs to emphasized that the members sharing personal stories are not allowed to make snide comments like "You couldn't handle the truth" or "you're not special enough" as I mentioned in my rant above.

That isn't going to get you anywhere, if someone asks if any verification is available you simply answer yes or no. If you can't handle someone politely asking you if there is any verification/proof/evidence to back your story up then you really don't belong in a discussion board environment IMHO.

So the site's position is, if I post a personal story, it's ok for someone to ask "do you have any proof of that"? and then I can answer yes or no. If I answer no then it's a personal story, and the skeptic can comment to that effect but shouldn't try to demean it after that. And if I have a problem with the skeptic asking that question, then I shouldn't be posting my story.

Makes sense to me.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
I am just curious why you are all so hell bent on dismissing an experience that you yourself have not experienced?

How can you be so certain no skeptic has had an experience?

Originally posted by mellisamouse
What is the motive behind this?

Fear?

This is what we call an appeal to motive fallacy; that is, ascribing a motive to the speaker so that you can dismiss their argument without considering its merit.

And one could easily ascribe the motive of fear to believers. They see the dark stretching around us to forever, they measure our finite lives against infinity and find a universe that will never notice our passing. But if we are being visited, no matter the rhyme or reason, it means we are important, we matter, that someone or something out there cares. And that is a far more comforting prospect.

See how easily this game can be played? Ultimately, such discussions are pointless and a distraction. It does not serve to get us any closer to our shared goal, the truth. As long as we are being sincere, open-minded and honest, our motivations do not and should not matter.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
I can understand if you don't want to believe such things as alien abductions, but why is it such an obsession to tell people their experience never happened, when some have had MULTIPLE abductions etc?

It is not that skeptics doubt the sincerity of abductees. There is no reason to. We just look for an explanation for their experience beyond the face-value.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
I can understand being PO'ed about he Astar command baloney and people claiming to be your savior etc...

You understand what you did there, right? You employed skepticism. Not only that, but you committed the same sin as you accuse skeptics of, dismissing someone's experience, telling them it didn't happen.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
But when it comes to millions of normal, every day people being abducted, sharing their experiences and looking for help etc, I just don't understand it.

Did you ever consider helping them may go beyond agreeing with them?

Originally posted by mellisamouseI also am seriously irritated by hoaxes etc, but not EVERYTHING is a hoax.

But in every case, we have to consider the possibility. You are employing a straw man argument; no skeptic explains every case as a hoax.

And maybe you should just accept that.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Skeptics can say I don't have any evidence so I can't prove it, and they would be right, well I don't see anything wrong with that, if it's true. Skeptics shouldn't say "it never happened" because they don't really know that for sure. So in answer to your question, I think somewhere in there is where skeptics should draw the line.

But where?

For instance, I suffer from intense episodes of sleep paralysis. There are times when I will feel or even see a malevolent presence in the room. So, on one level it cannot be argued that the experience is not real. However, while I did experience it, it does not necessarily mean it really happened the way I think it did. The emotions and memory are real, even if the experience wasn't.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex There are times when I will feel or even see a malevolent presence in the room.

And can you be absolutely sure that presence wasn't in the room?

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex There are times when I will feel or even see a malevolent presence in the room.

And can you be absolutely sure that presence wasn't in the room?

considering how quickly it clears up when the paralysis ends (like I said, I've experienced this as well), I would say yes. It has all the hallmarks of being entirely in your head.

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex There are times when I will feel or even see a malevolent presence in the room.

And can you be absolutely sure that presence wasn't in the room?

Absolutely, yes. It is all in my mind, a malfunction in the chemical processes that regulate my body dreaming REM sleep.

And to be certain, "malevolent presence" is a catch-all phrase to describe "the threat," sometimes I think it is a burglar, sometimes a hag, but most often I realize its a dream and go back to sleep.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

Originally posted by JScytale
considering how quickly it clears up when the paralysis ends (like I said, I've experienced this as well), I would say yes. It has all the hallmarks of being entirely in your head.

Not to mention the fact that an ex-wife, various girlfriends and friends have been in the room at one time or another when it has happened and saw nothing...

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


yep. also, i apparently mentioned this in a different thread today, so my comment probably seems odd. here's that quote where i mentioned that I have experience sleep paralysis:

Originally posted by JScytale
reply to post by stevedel0

 

sleep paralysis is very common (it has happened to me 4 times) - that's the sensation of waking up before your body, finding every single muscle in you paralyzed including your eyelids, and it is utterly terrifying. also, lucid dreams can be extraordinarily vivid, and dreams can easily be so realistic that your brain confuses them with real memories. this has been documented.

from this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

For me, most of the terror comes from the sensation of being trapped in your own body. The sense of a presence actually takes a back seat to that. Its like an extreme claustrophobia, and I'm not generally claustrophobic.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by JScytale]