President Carter: Many Children Were Tortured Under Bush

President Jimmy Carter wrote that the Red Cross, Amnesty International and the Pentagon "have gathered substantial testimony of torture of children, confirmed by soldiers who witnessed or participated in the abuse." In "Our Endangered Values" Carter said that the Red Cross found after visiting six U.S. prisons "107 detainees under eighteen, some as young as eight years old." And reporter Hersh, (who broke the Abu Ghraib torture scandal,) reported 800-900 Pakistani boys aged 13 to 15 in custody.

Source Link: uruknet.com...

I'm not exactly sure where to begin commenting on this article. After reading it three times just to make sure I wasn't reading to much into things it is very clear that I don't know what to think when former Presidents, current Congressmen and Senators making comments at the Capital on C-span supporting Bush and Obama but then make such honest and truthful comments about the war, torture and Bush that never makes it to the MSM. Man this is a slap in the face of every American. I simply hope and pray that they don't attempt this crap with us here in the US when the Fit hits the Shan because they will have a lot of dead Americans on their hands.

These allegations broke out to media around Christmastime, yes? And since..not a word about it. grrr

What it claims and what it implies is that people (troops and politicians) are behaving in a manner that is and should be considered war crimes.

I am disgusted that nothing has or is being done about this. Those poor children. I weep for children tossed midst the struggle for power or influence anywhere, during war or peace.

Thanks for bringing this back to the front of ATS and yes, it should be on the front pages of every major newspaper too.

reply to post by Rams59lb


Until the US confronts and deals with its demons head on, and not keep sweeping skeletons under the ever rising carpet, it has forfieted all entitlements to moralise or preach to other nations on human rights.

reply to post by A Conscience

Until the US confronts and deals with its demons head on, and not keep sweeping skeletons under the ever rising carpet, it has forfieted all entitlements to moralise or preach to other nations on human rights.

Trulyyyy awesome point AConscience!!!!

I wanted to add that Canada admits shame in this affair: archives.cbc.ca...

or www.videosift.com...

as former military and coming from a family of military, I was truly disgusted and ashamed of our behavior in Somalia.

[edit on 19-7-2009 by suzque66]

[edit on 19-7-2009 by suzque66]

ah yes, that good ole "compassionate conservatism" and those good ole "family values" and morals. all the griping about the homosexuals by this group of people, and low and behold!! they seem to have been forcing the behavior on young teenage boys??

it seems that not only did the bush administration think that they were above our laws, but that they also was above the laws of his own God....

those who handed these orders down the chain of command to the troops in the field should be brought to justice, not only for what they did to the Iraqis, but for what they did to our own men and women serving! part of taking that oath to serve is trusting your government to act in a way that is in the best interest to the nation, and to the military......that trust was betrayed severely here! if we can prosecute and jail, ruin the lives of the little fish, well, we should jail the big fishies also, for ten times the amount of time as the little fish!

reply to post by dawnstar


Yes dawnstar, that was my point and is what is being attempted in the vids I posted earlier in regards to the military tribunal in Canada for the 'Somali Affair'. The leaders should be held as equally or more accountable.

reply to post by suzque66


I have a son in the military, he enlisted right out of high school. He isn't the most perfect person in the world, I mean, he has his moral flaws like the rest of us, but well, I think he'd had a mental breakdown or something if he actually thought he had to do something like this because of an order. he definately wouldn't be coming home in the same shape as he went in! I'm kind of concerned that our gov't might have totally screwed up the minds and spirits of those who were involved with this on the field.....
all the while preaching those good family values, demonizing the homosexuals, holding the Holy Book up high proclaiming it's superiority to the world....

this is why the republicans are in the state they are in......the don't practice what they preach, they seem to go in the opposite direction and do the exact opposite.....they obviously don't believe in the God that they preach because well, if they did, they'd believe the rest of it, and know, there's a nice flaming hot rock waiting just for them in hades!

America got many governments to torture people for them, places like uk government tortured there own people for views against usa.

reply to post by dawnstar


Yes he likely would be upset. EEEeeeesh, these poor guys.

I would make sure that he is aware of what he is being given in pill or injection form in order to mask these atrocities that they might witness:

www.guardian.co.uk...

also, often times (without their consent) www.msnbc.msn.com...

I hope he is informed on the symptoms of both being given these meds and if they are removed from his system.

reply to post by dawnstar


Sorry you have to worry about your boy, but really aren't you sympathising with the wrong people here?

You seem more concerned with the mental health reprecussions of the perps that that of the victims!

Again, if they carry out an Illegal order to torture children as young as eight years old, hardly dislodged from their mother's breast, they deserve the same treatment as the Nazis in the Concen camps in Europe who claimed they 'were just following orders'.

If found guilty of systematic torture of young children, they deserve the full punishment that's required under law. Heck, forget law... just on basic human decency alone, it is crimes against humanity...and we all know what penalty that carries with it.

Whatever evil ******* ordered this torture, should have been shot dead where he or she stood by whatever soldier was in range. Then you'd see this kind of crap stop, and fast.

Carter is a senile old man who is irrelevant and who desperately wants to be important somehow. He's been caught telling massive lies in the past and there is no reason to believe him now. He's always cozied up to radical left wing hoods. I see that his old age and irrelevancy hasn't changed him at all. :shk:

reply to post by spikey


There is a fine line between what a 'boy' learns moraly and what a boy learns when he is a soldier. Often the judgements one can make at home are far from reality than what he has to conquer daily as a routine, mentally. Likely less than 20% of any troops will see any horrific acts, lets hope he is one of them.

Not only is peer pressure involved but the ability of or lack therefore of authority in these situations. See: www.livevideo.com...

We have seen since the entire existence of war that no soldier is truly equipped by that time to engage in stablility of mind so rigidly that he is an independant person. He cannot be, he is part of a whole. That is his premise when arriving where he goes to fulfill his duties.

Although he is responsible for his actions, you have to give a major percentage of blame for any uncustomary and unsavory behavior to the leaders, those in authority. For without them, they wouldn't be there to cause any distress to another to begin with.

Not to mention that in this man's generation of war..the rules have changed so drastically that no one is for sure of any future mental eventual outcome. We do see the short-term effects that are similar to Vietnam (suicide, homicidal actions) but they are far worse than any previous scenerio. She isn't blaming the victims, she is merely dictating that her son is a living, breathing victim of the possibility of pain through either witnessing or enforcing an atrocity towards another. An innocent may be injured unjustly in this pawn game by people we never see, but him surviving doesn't ensure that he will survive intact and as innocent/clean of conscience as one might believe. That in itself would be pain, a lifetime of shame and a future of guilt and remorse. Not much of an existence at all when you think of the full picture.

edit: I am a mother too...and I know I would exchange my life in prison time to keep my son out of a war. I am sure she would too. Do not mess with moms, we raised and fed the morality into the lads. Don't assume that (for most of us) our children would do these things for 'kicks'. Not everyone out there raised a sadist nor would be proud to do so.

[edit on 19-7-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66

Was it worth disbanding an entire elite regiment and losing the parachute capability for the Canadian Army just because of the actions of a few? And quite frankly the kid shouldent have stolen from them, if you play with fire your going to get burned pure and simple.

Carter needs to just go and tend to his peanuts. He never was and never will be skilled in the art of diplomacy.

As for the torture, let the courts decide. Teenage "children" firing weapons, planting bombs, acting as suicide bombers etc still classifies them as an enemy who is trying to kill you.

For me this notion of teen combatants is difficult to imagine but in foreign nations it is a reality. Iran accepts military volunteers as young as 16 and requires compulsory service at 19 and 15 years for the Basij Militia. They all carry weapons and are trained to use them. The Basij is actually the mainstay of domestic security. Kids as young as 15!! Nice.

reply to post by ChrisF231

Was it worth disbanding an entire elite regiment and losing the parachute capability for the Canadian Army just because of the actions of a few? And quite frankly the kid shouldent have stolen from them, if you play with fire your going to get burned pure and simple.

Good point but kids stealing as an excuse?? um NO. We were peacekeepers -- not supposed tyrants. There is no HONOUR in abusing the locals, none at all...again ESPECIALLY since we (Canadians) were peacekeepers.

Therefore it was a necessity that that branch be closed --for good. In fact, there used to be an entire infantry regiment that were cowards on the field and supposedly turned foot and ran in combat (I don't recall which battle nor can I find the regiment's name now grr) that had to even arrive on parade with a yellow feather in their berets. I believe now that reg. has been disbanded years ago. If anyone can find info on it, let me know. I am former RCR (non-airbourne) trained often by the British, I know when I heard this entire escapade I was thoroughly ashamed. My parents were both RCAF, my grandfather was also RCR - would be turning in his grave. He wouldn't even consider doing these kinds of things even during his time near the beaches of Vimmy.

and here is a great site to explain why it HAD to be disbanded:

www.simcoe.com...

"The regiment was disbanded in 1995, after a series of disclosures of racism, brutality and misconduct, which also took down as collateral damage the defence minister, David Collenette, and the chief of the defence staff, Gen. Jean Boyle.

The CAFA feels strongly there is still a need for airborne troops in today's military environment.

Huronia branch president Jerry Robertson says the new Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) is proof that "we still need an airborne unit." The CSOR, sometimes referred to as "Son of Airborne" is set to become fully operational soon. Robertson, who lives in Holland Landing, served in the Regiment as a full-time soldier, as did Luttrell. Iversen was a reserve, part-time soldier but nonetheless qualified for his wings and jumped with the Airborne.

Iversen says a major air crash or other disaster in Canada's remote north would require the Forces to have the ability to drop a field hospital and staff, and that we would also need such a capability to respond to disaster and chaos anywhere in the world. He says the CAFA is determined to maintain that mission. Many of the search-and-rescue specialists in the air force were once members of the Airborne.

As well, Forces personnel from a variety of units and trades graduate as jumpers each year.

"We're not advocating going back to what was," Iversen says. "We're advocating the need for a disciplined, trained airborne force."

The Canadian Airborne Regiment was the brainchild of Gen. Jean Victor Allard, who was chief of the defence staff in 1968. It was, from the outset, a unit without a mission, as combat parachute drops were not part of Canada's military doctrine.

Critics of the new unit described it as "three lies in one." It was not truly Canadian, but more American in its philosophy and organization. It was not really airborne because it had no operational parachute role, and never carried out an operational drop in its history. And it was not a regiment in the Canadian sense, in that soldiers were assigned to it on a temporary basis, and it was not organized like a regiment.

As a result, it became a place where commanders could dump their troublemakers for a few years, by which time the commanders would have moved on and the bad apples would be someone else's problem.

An inquiry in the 1980s found that the Airborne had a much higher incidence of assault and other criminal activity than any other unit. Officers and non-coms who tried to enforce discipline sometimes suffered reprisals, such as having their cars burned. What is not generally known is that the regiment was almost disbanded in 1985, in the aftermath of the machete murder of a civilian by an airborne soldier in a bar brawl.

However, the reverse is also true, in that most members of the unit were among the best and finest the Forces had to offer. They served honourably and professionally on several overseas missions, including a deployment to Cyprus that turned into a shooting war when Turkey invaded the island.

Still, non-Airborne soldiers correctly point out that the Airborne did nothing that could not have been done equally well by a regular infantry battalion.

It was also the only Canadian unit to have the theme song of a Hollywood movie as its regimental march, the jingoistic opus, The Longest Day. This connected the Airborne to those Canadians who jumped into France on D-Day, an event seen as heralding the start of the Airborne tradition in this country.

The American connection continues. Robertson admits that after serving with America's Special Forces, he believes Canada's paratroopers "are closer to the Americans than anyone else."

The CAFA also mirrors this in its ceremonies. Although Canadians traditionally declare loyalty to the Queen, the group also has a religious, patriotic, American-style "Pledge of Allegiance" to the flag, which is de rigueur at all meetings. "Anyone who doesn't want to say this," says Luttrell, "I say 'there's the door, make sure it doesn't hit you in the ass on the way out.' "

"I think we set a good example of loyalty to our nation," says Iversen. "There is a correct way to act as a Canadian. We set the example."

And these men, now retired from the military but still strong and energetic, seem to believe that.

Bright-eyed and fit, they look back on their parachute experience as the highlight of their lives, and they exude a sense that no one else quite meets their level of service, loyalty and patriotism.

After the disbandment of the regiment, parachute capability in the Canadian Forces was dispersed through the creation of "jump companies" in the three regular force battalions, the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, the Royal Canadian Regiment, and the Royal 22nd Regiment. A reserve unit was also created in the Queen's Own Rifles in Toronto. "

reply to post by suzque66


Hey, you don't have to tell me.

I was a full time soldier in the British army myself way back in the 80's.

I am also a father of two boys.

I DO understand what you are saying, but the point is, although war WILL lead to a high number of returning soldiers having neurological problems to deal with, later on...they signed up for the service, knew what the risks are and were, and while they will certainly hope they do not become a statistic on a mortuary slab somewhere, they realise it's a possibility.

There is a choice involved.

These kids, have no choice.

Of course we are not talking about every member of a countrys armed services being an evil child torturer, but it is obviously going on, and has been going on for some time, all under the direction of the 'officer' class of soldier, ultimately sanctioned by the political 'leaders'. Extra-ordinary rendition ring any bells?

I stand by what i said. If any soldier is ordered to carry out an illegal act on an infant or young child, such as torture and the like, and that soldier does as ordered, he or she is just as guilty as the creep that gave the order in the first place.

For me, if i was ordered to do such a thing, i would certainly NOT carry it out, and opt for a court marshal instead. If i was threatened with bodily harm or even have a gun pulled on me for refusing an order (in a battle situation) i would feign compliance and then shoot the creep through the skull, at the first opportunity. These soldiers (which is the minority) who perform these inhuman acts on children, will probably clain defense by saying i was just following orders...how many times has that phrase been used to try and riggle out of a noose?

I too hope your friends son isn't severely affected by his experiences, but my sympathy is with the child victims, not the invading army.

I do not know the earlier poster as a friend (yet), so wish her the best on your own.

It is obvious you didn't read my post nor see the milgram link on how authority (or even peer pressure) can effect people.

It is just common denominator/fact that the actions of others effect the weaker that are within arms reach.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Carter is a senile old man who is irrelevant and who desperately wants to be important somehow.

I take note, FF, that your right wing denial machine remains on its default setting...attack the source, and ignore the charge.

That is why the GOP has descended into irrelevance, and the Right has become a sheer mockery of the Christian values with which it anoints itself.

Shameful.

Carter is a senile old man who is irrelevant and who desperately wants to be important somehow. He's been caught telling massive lies in the past and there is no reason to believe him now. He's always cozied up to radical left wing hoods. I see that his old age and irrelevancy hasn't changed him at all.

I guess you don't know your history son. How dare you call this man 'desperate to be important'. Lies? You have a lot to learn.

Your former (and awesome) President Jimmy Carter is well loved and respected here, maybe more than in your country... in Canada...he saved us from a near dire nuclear disaster:

ottawariverkeeper.ca...

maybe you should review the education, Naval career and achievements of this great man.

Jimmy Carter - Nobel Peace Prize winner 2002: nobelprize.org...

en.wikipedia.org...
www.cartercenter.org...
www.whitehouse.gov...

www.cbc.ca...

reply to post by spikey


would you really? let's see, you go straight from authoritarian childhood to authoritarian military, get sent to some strange country on another continent, and to you it appears that hey, the orders are coming from the top!!! these are the people you are relying on for the ride home!!! these are the people who have the power to push you out of the truck while passing through a bunch of angry Iraqis who are wishing they could take you hostage!! ain't saying any of this happen, and well, my son lucked out so far and hasn't been stationed in either Iraq or Afghanistan. but well, by what he's heard from friends who've been there there are at least a few commanding officers that wouldn't be worth a dang!! heck one, by what he heard spent the entire time in his tent, unable to function!!

I've heard enough of the story surrounding just the pictures that came out of abu garib to come to the conclusion that this was a systematic thing that was set up deliberately, the top brass and bush administration giving the green light on it. doesn't matter to me weather the kids had guns in their hands when they were picked up or not, to set it up so that these kids are raped (for intelligence gathering purposes) is morally bankrupt, and it would have an effect of morally bankrupting anyone who was expected to do such a thing! even the pictures that did come out shows how morally sick it was! the fact that the administration was elected by the "christian right" by tooting those good ole anti-homosexual, family values bit just adds a ton of irony to the whole thing!
if you prosecute the ones in the field for doing this, then well, those who gave the orders...all the way up to the president and his administration should get ten times the jail time if they are found to have been promoting it!.....

because well, if you prosecute the lowly peons, and leave those big fishies to go on with their life power and wealth accumulation, well, don't think you are gonna be drafting the rest of my offspring in any wars......they'll be living in another country, far, far, away!