German High Court Hijacking EU

There was no 3rd Reich. Subsequently there cannot be a 4th Reich. That nomenclature is purely opinionated drivel.

Germany under the national socialist rule was not an empire in the traditional sense, and even less in the germanocentric view of a Reich.

[edit on 9/8/2009 by Lonestar24]

Originally posted by Lonestar24
There was no 3rd Reich. Subsequently there cannot be a 4th Reich. That nomenclature is purely opinionated drivel.

Germany under the national socialist rule was not an empire in the traditional sense, and even less in the germanocentric view of a Reich.

[edit on 9/8/2009 by Lonestar24]

No 3rd Reich???

No Holy Roman Empire????

I must be on the wrong planet

It sounds like the Germans are trying to retain a semblance of sovereignty. And why shouldn't they? The EU is a supranational entity that cannot possibly represent the interests of all European nations. It stands to reason that Germany, a country with a tradition of independence, would want to keep as much for themselves as possible. It is the EU that is trying to hijack Germany it seems...Why do you think the Irish told them to F off?

Originally posted by starwarp2000
reply to post by Tussilago

 

the OP must have a screw loose

It was all going well until you showed your true intelligence.
Try again next time.

Well, pardon the expression. Anyway, I started the name calling so hopefully I can stop it. The problem, however, is that your reasoning on this is not only illogical but also, as it seems, entirely detached from reality.

At its root, Germany and especially the German establishment is still, 64 years hence, haunted by the holocaust. It's the basis for every German policy, one could almost say its raison d'être. You can't have been to Germany or know that many Germans to believe the things you do. "Fourth Reich".

Originally posted by starwarp2000
...
No 3rd Reich???

No Holy Roman Empire????

I must be on the wrong planet

No, you were just deceived by an erroneous naming of the German Reich. The "3rd Reich" is a mythical idea that was kidnapped by the proto-Nazis to combat the Weimar Republic, most famously by Arthur Moeller van den Bruck, to give the nationalistic movement a religiously based relevance and importance.

The term fell into disuse soon after the Nazis gained power and was reintroduced only after the war because of its constant use by the Allied media.

That does not change the fact that it is merely a colloquialism with no basis in reality. The Nazi-governed germany at no time was resembling or following the ideology set forth in the traditional idea of the 3rd Reich. Scientists today are rather unanimous in their view that it is an erroneous badge and should not be used when describing the german Empire.

Oh, and I did not speak at all of the HRE, where did you get that from?

reply to post by Tussilago


From what I have heard they are completely denying the Holocaust saying it is "Jewish Propoganda'.
These things are best left to the sands of time, wait till the November elections and then debate whether this is right or not.
Oh!!!, do you live in Europe???

Then maybe you are a part of the plot

reply to post by Lonestar24


Well, pedantic intellectualisms aside: the Germans 'did' have an Empire 'twice', and they 'did' start two world wars, and documents 'were' captured at the end of each outlining the faults and remedies for the next.
You fail to realise that Germany has a 1,000 year plan.
Wake up or it will be too late.

Originally posted by starwarp2000
reply to post by Tussilago

 

From what I have heard they are completely denying the Holocaust saying it is "Jewish Propoganda'.

Actually, if you deny the holocaust in Germany you're committing thought crime and can be sentenced to many years in jail. No, it's not a joke. In other words, reality is absolutely contrary to what you "have heard". No German would simply dare to deny the holocaust or mention "Jewish propaganda" in public; you're not supposed to acknowledge that such a thing even exists. Similar laws, contrary to all traditions of juris prudence, exist in France, Austria, Belgium and other countries.
en.wikipedia.org...

Moreover, the real NWO would quite like to see such "denial of the Holocaust" and "hate speech" laws introduced in the US as well, forever derailing the First Amendment.
In fact, in later years, the US have practically caved in to Jewish pressure, extraditing for example Germar Rudolf, who originally fled Germany due to his finds that the so called "gas chambers" in Birkenau (actually crematorium morgues) showed no trace of Zyklon B being used to kill people.
Think about how practical such "denial laws" would be in the case of 911...

Oh!!!, do you live in Europe???

I do. Sweden, Europe.

Then maybe you are a part of the plot

But of course. We all wear gray trench coats and fedoras and secretly meet on Mondays for tea and biscuits.


[edit on 10-8-2009 by Tussilago]

Originally posted by starwarp2000
reply to post by Lonestar24

 

Well, pedantic intellectualisms aside: the Germans 'did' have an Empire 'twice', and they 'did' start two world wars, and documents 'were' captured at the end of each outlining the faults and remedies for the next.

Please explain what "documents" were "found"!

You fail to realise that Germany has a 1,000 year plan.
Wake up or it will be too late.

Seriously, you're too funny.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Tussilago]

But of course. We all wear gray trench coats and fedoras and secretly meet on Mondays for tea and biscuits.

I should of guessed

reply to post by Tussilago

Please explain what "documents" were "found"!

US Military Intelligence report EW-Pa 128!!!!

The secret report that shows how the Nazis planned a Fourth Reich ...in the EU

Google 'Red House Report' and stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by starwarp2000
...From what I have heard they are completely denying the Holocaust saying it is "Jewish Propoganda'. ...

You´ve heard wrong.

Germany is not only one of the few countries that have publicly repented for past sins, it is also one of the even fewer where this guilt is largely unanimously accepted by its population - even though the actual perpetrators have largely died out by now.

Originally posted by Tussilago
...Actually, if you deny the holocaust in Germany you're committing thought crime and can be sentenced to many years in jail. ...

Its not a "thought" crime. The question is : "Cui bono"? Because if the Germans didnt do it, then someone must have lied, right? So the equation is rather simple: By denying that the holocaust has happened you automatically indicate that there has to be a jewish (and homosexual- and gypsy- and socialist -and etc. etc.) plot against Germany. And it is not allowed to incite hatred, discriminate against and defame singled-out groups. It is also forbidden to slander the deceased. You will find laws against such practises in most developed countries - also in Sweden or the USA.

The only difference is that in Germany the denial of the holocaust is specifically spelled out as a case of defamation due to the equation I have outlined earlier, but the legal basis is the common overall law against hate speech and defamation.

Oh, and that Germar Rudolf you named is just a high-profile nutcase whose "scientific findings" have been widely discredited. He´s nothing more than all the others who fake history in the guise of pseudo science.

Originally posted by starwarp2000
Well, pedantic intellectualisms aside: the Germans 'did' have an Empire 'twice', and they 'did' start two world wars, and documents 'were' captured at the end of each outlining the faults and remedies for the next.
You fail to realise that Germany has a 1,000 year plan.
Wake up or it will be too late.

What you call pedantic intellectualism is important for the whole basis of your theory! The 3 in 3rd Reich wasnt just a number - it was an ancient mythical idea that the Nazis for a while used to bolster their standing. It is part of the whole thought process of german exceptionalism that the Nazis used to built their nordic-germanic ersatz religion upon.

It didnt work long though. I earlier said the term 3rd Reich fell into disuse; in reality its use was even outlawed because it began to work contrary to the Nazi ideology.

Same with that "1000 years" drivel - or millenialism as it is called, its a mythical-historical concept as well which was useful for the Nazis for its pathos. I hope you do not honestly believe that anyone in their right mind was actually planning ahead for the next thousand of years.

Even the Nazis were not entirely stupid - all that pseudo religious stuff was just meant to be flashy phrases to get the common people on board.

Originally posted by starwarp2000
US Military Intelligence report EW-Pa 128!!!!

The secret report that shows how the Nazis planned a Fourth Reich ...in the EU

Google 'Red House Report' and stop wasting my time.

Well that report means squat, and I dont say that because you quote the Daily Mail, the newspaper that has built its "reputation" on repeating the ever same Nazi fairy tales for 70 years straight.

Of course plans were made. Governments have whole archives full of plans. There are plans ranging from what do in case of catastrophe to how to defend against an attack by the Martians to how to deal with a violent coup d´etat by unemployed single moms from Ipswich.

Just because there is a plan it does not follow that it comes to fruition. And I will tell you why this red House Report is not worth the paper it is written on:

1. The report is based on the idea of a resurgence of the Nazi government after losing the war. Well, there is just the small problem that the Allies made the effort to impose an UNCONDITIONAL surrender on Germany. If you read up on what that means actually, be prepared to be astounded. The unconditional surrender factually ended the existence of Germany as a state. Complete authority in all matters of state was handed over to the occupation forces. The government was disbanded, the Nazi party crushed and many of the leaders incarcerated or executed. All public and most private capital was taken away.

The plan loses its whole point because the Nazi rule and Nazi era was ENDED by the unconditional surrender. The plan also does not foresee the extend to which the Allies plundered german property, knowledge and manpower. In 1947, Germany was a third world country - not foreseen by the Nazis because an unconditional surrender was largely unheard of. they could not have known that Germany would be parted and lose a large portion of its most important resources (the Saarland) and the east german industry regions.

Subsequently the attendees at that conference could not have known that at the core of the rapid german post-war development were the cheap labour of displaced persons in a Germany shrunk to half its former size.

2. Looking at the rag-tag group of attendees at this "conference" you may see that they are in no way representative at all of the german economy. Half of the institutions attending that conference arent even existing anymore. Of the rest, only Volkswagen and Krupp are actually heavy hitters in the german economy. There is no Siemens, no Allianz, no Deutsche Bank, no Daimler, no BASF and Bayer.

In short, those mostly marginal companies in attendance had no hope whatsoever to have any meaningful influence on their own on the post-war development.

3. The actual economic landscape in Germany discredits the theory that secret meetings and foreign front-end companies prepared the way to a "Fourth Reich". Why? Because the german economy is split into tiny little parts! The german economic power does not come from big conglomerates controlling the economy - if you look at the "Global 500" lists of the 500 largest companies, you will find only 20 German companies in there - although Germany is the worlds third strongest economy!

The german economic power lies in small and medium businesses. 95% of all companies in germany are in family hands. They make 42% of all revenue and employ 57% of the german workforce. This section even has an own name in german, the "Mittelstand" (economic middle class). Compared to most other countries, Germany has very little in the line of "Big Business".

And in short, that Mittelstand is the growth motor in Germany and the source of its wealth and subsequently political influence - a myriad of small businesses, highly specialized and each at the cutting edge in their field.

Not some ominous "4th Reich 1000 years Nazi masterplan". Ridiculous.

reply to post by Lonestar24


Why is it that most of what you say is incorrect?

It was the Nazi's who originated the 1,000 yr dream of a 'Third Reich'.

As for them not controlling the country after the war????

You do know that the Catholic Church smuggled 'most' of the high ranking Nazi's out of the country and just about all the looted Gold and other wealth was placed in Swiss bank accounts. Then after the war, after America rebuilt Germany under the Marshall Plan, they gave up trying to 'de-nazify' Germany because it was an ingrained thing that could not be removed from the German psyche!!!
So after 1954, most of the former Nazi's came back to Germany and entered the 'same' jobs they had during the war.

So, once again you have ignored history and come up with some weird 'history' not backed up by facts or actualities.

I wonder if you know anything about the subject at all.

Originally posted by starwarp2000
...
Why is it that most of what you say is incorrect?
[...]
So, once again you have ignored history and come up with some weird 'history' not backed up by facts or actualities.

Funny you should say that. I honestly tried to correct some of your misperceptions so we may mutually learn from each other. And unlike you, I can back up my statements with facts. But since you obviously would not care, I´ll try a different route and discredit some of your statements instead.

It was the Nazi's who originated the 1,000 yr dream of a 'Third Reich'.

Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years") ... is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the New Heavens and New Earth). [...]

Millennialism is also a doctrine of medieval Zoroastrianism concerning successive thousand-year periods,[...]

Various other social and political movements, both religious and secular, have also been linked to millennialist metaphors by scholars. [...]

The early Christian concept ... was blended and enhanced with ideas of utopia.

In the wake of early millennial thinking, the Three Ages philosophy (Drei-Reiche-Lehre) developed. Making use of the dogma of the Trinity, ... Joachim of Fiore (died 1202) claimed that all of human history was a succession of three ages:

1. the Age of the Father (the Old Testament)
2. the Age of the Son (the New Testament)
3. the Age of the Holy Spirit (the age of love, peace, and freedom)

It was believed that the Age of the Holy Spirit would ...[last] ...for a thousand years until Judgement Day would put an end to the history of our planet.

In the Modern Era... some of the concepts of millennial thinking have found their way into various secular ideas, usually in the form of a belief that a certain historical event will fundamentally change human society (or has already done so). For example, the French Revolution seemed to many to be ushering in the millennial age of reason. Also, the philosophies of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (d. 1831) and Karl Marx (d. 1883) carried strong millennial overtones.

There is a not dissimilar belief in Judaism. Time is split into 3 periods. [...]

The most controversial interpretation of the Three Ages philosophy and of millennialism in general is Hitler's "Third Reich" ("Drittes Reich", "Tausendjähriges Reich"), ...

The phrase "Third Reich" was coined by the German thinker Arthur Moeller van den Bruck, ... Looking back at German history, two periods were distinguished, and identified with the ages of Joachim of Fiore:

* the Holy Roman Empire (beginning with Charlemagne in AD 800) -- (the "First Reich"), --The Age of the Father and
* the German Empire -- under the Hohenzollern dynasty (1871 - 1918) (the "Second Reich") -- The Age of the Son.

These were now to be followed—after the interval of the Weimar Republic (1918 - 1933), during which constitutionalism, parliamentarism and even pacifism ruled—by:

* the "Third Reich" -- The Age of the Holy Ghost.

Although van den Bruck was unimpressed by Adolf Hitler... and did not join the Nazi Party, nevertheless the phrase was adopted by the Nazis to describe the totalitarian state they wanted to set up [...]

It may be of interest to note that after it was clear that Adolph Hitler was not going to successfully implement a thousand year reign, that the Vatican issued a statement that millennial teachings could not be safely taught and that the related scriptures in Revelation (also called the Apocalypse) should be understood spiritually. Source

Conclusion: The Nazis did adapt an ages old religious idea and used it as long as they saw fit to keep the populace happy. Doesnt mean they actually believed that stuff.

You do know that the Catholic Church smuggled 'most' of the high ranking Nazi's out of the country ...

Didn´t happen apart from a few solitary cases.

and just about all the looted Gold and other wealth was placed in Swiss bank accounts.

Untrue. The majority of german gold, currency and other valuables were rather quickly found in stashes and in local Reichsbank vaults by the Allies. Most importantly a mine near the city of Merkers:

Throughout most of the war, the bulk of the German gold reserves was held at the Reichsbank in Berlin. [...]

...Walter Funk, president of the Reichsbank and Reich minister of economics, decided to send most of the gold reserves, worth some $238 million, and a large quantity of the monetary reserves to a mine at Merkers, about two hundred miles southwest of Berlin, for safekeeping. [...]

On February 11 most of the gold reserves, including gold brought back from the branch banks to Berlin for shipment to Merkers, currency reserves totaling a billion Reichsmarks bundled in one thousand bags, and a considerable quantity of foreign currency, were transported by rail to Merkers. [...]

To protect the nation's art treasures, the Reichminister for Education decided in March to ship them to mines for safekeeping. [...] Between March 20 and March 31 the Germans transported one-fourth of the major holdings of fourteen of the principal Prussian state museums to Merkers. [...]

[The Americans discover the mine]

Early on April 8 Earnest, Russell, a public affairs officer, photographers, reporters, and elements of the 282d Engineer Combat Battalion entered the mine. [...]

In order to examine the contents, some of the seals on the bags were broken, and a partial inventory was made. The inventory indicated that there were 8,198 bars of gold bullion; 55 boxes of crated gold bullion; hundreds of bags of gold items; over 1,300 bags of gold Reichsmarks, British gold pounds, and French gold francs; 711 bags of American twenty-dollar gold pieces; hundreds of bags of gold and silver coins; hundreds of bags of foreign currency; 9 bags of valuable coins; 2,380 bags and 1,300 boxes of Reichsmarks (2.76 billion Reichsmarks); 20 silver bars; 40 bags containing silver bars; 63 boxes and 55 bags of silver plate; 1 bag containing six platinum bars; and 110 bags from various countries

Of course there was some gold and money sent to Switzerland. Under the Washington treaty of 1946 Switzerland was forced to freeze all german funds in its banks and agreed to pay 250 mio. francs to the tripartite comission for the restitution of monetary gold (TGC). the TGC alone restituted about 65% of the recognized losses of the national banks of France, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Luxembourg, Belgium, Greece, Poland, Italy, Austria, Yugoslavia and even Albania.

All this does not even begin to factor in the "private" looting done by the victorious. It follows that the actual german funds left in foreign accounts was a lot less than you think it was.

[edit on 12/8/2009 by Lonestar24]

...continued

Then after the war, after America rebuilt Germany under the Marshall Plan,

The Marshall Plan weas not very significant in the rebuilding of the nation. The introduction of the solid Deutsche Mark and the availability of cheap but skilled labour was.

The Marshall Plan gave Germany $1.4 billion in total. All the while Germany had to pay on average $2.4 bill. YEARLY for the costs of Allied Occupation, and that for decades. Furthermore historian John Gimbel however estimates that the value of seized German intellectual property like patents alone amounted to close to $10 billion, plus thousand of dismantled industrial complexes shipped abroad. Germany also had to repay $15 billion of debts. And Germany payed DM4.5 billion to direct claims of prisoners.

There is a myriad more of payments I wont count here. You think the Marshall Plan rebuilt Germany? Well, do the math yourself.

they gave up trying to 'de-nazify' Germany because it was an ingrained thing that could not be removed from the German psyche!! So after 1954, most of the former Nazi's came back to Germany and entered the 'same' jobs they had during the war.

Noone "gave up" denazification. The weeding out of Nazi party members from public offices stopped when it was necessary to run efficient civil services again to build up Germany as a protective wall against the Soviets. For that you needed competent bureaucrats.

The prosecution of provable crimes done by Nazis and non-party members alike never stopped though (recent example is the prosecution of the John Demjanjuk.

There is a big difference between the rank and file Nazi Party members (which for many was obligational regardless of their personal views) and the actual policy-making or criminal perpetrators.And very few "high ranking" Nazis ever held a public office with influence on policy again. Also, nationalistic parties consistently lost support and have not been part of the German government for almost 50 years.

The Nazi ideas were also not an "ingrained into the german psyche", I wonder where you got this funny idea from. You should be aware that all that superhuman, 1000-years-of-glory stuff Hollywood and the Daily Mail embraced was actually just at the very fringe of the Nazi ideology. The core of the National Socialist party program was equality and egality of the population, distribution of wealth and a powerful country under a strong leadership. This is what most Germans cared about in the Nazi ideology after the weak Weimar Republic.

And yes, many Germans still believe in these basic concepts - concepts you will find in ALL modern nations. Please tell me how this leads to a pan-German masterplan for a 4th Reich.

I wonder if you know anything about the subject at all.

Coming from someone with curious views like you, I take that as a compliment.

[edit on 12/8/2009 by Lonestar24]

reply to post by Lonestar24


You back up your arguments with facts?

Well, I stand corrected

Your dragging of this thread into the depths of personal derision and personal attack has forced me to discontinue it.
We will leave it with this:

You believe what you want to believe and i will do likewise. You believe your sources of history and I will believe mine. Never may the twain meet.
Only time will tell who is correct.

Thank you for a interesting discussion, (apart from the personal derision), and maybe we will speak again in some other thread.

Cheers

THREAD CLOSED DUE TO ABUSIVE PARTICIPANTS

Originally posted by Lonestar24

Originally posted by Tussilago
...Actually, if you deny the holocaust in Germany you're committing thought crime and can be sentenced to many years in jail. ...

Its not a "thought" crime. The question is : "Cui bono"? Because if the Germans didnt do it, then someone must have lied, right? So the equation is rather simple: By denying that the holocaust has happened you automatically indicate that there has to be a jewish (and homosexual- and gypsy- and socialist -and etc. etc.) plot against Germany.

So if Jews and gypsies don’t benefit by reality being shown for what it is, then ban reality?
Here’s news for you, the (actual, scientific) study of history does not take sides, it’s only interested in what actually happened. To hell with the Jews!

And it is not allowed to incite hatred, discriminate against and defame singled-out groups.

Except for white, non-Jewish, heterosexual males.

You will find laws against such practises in most developed countries - also in Sweden or the USA.

Indeed, and I deplore this disintegration of our rights everyday.

Oh, and that Germar Rudolf you named is just a high-profile nutcase whose "scientific findings" have been widely discredited. He´s nothing more than all the others who fake history in the guise of pseudo science.

Or so would the Jew controlled massmedia of the PTB like you to believe. Truth is there is nothing wrong with Rudolf’s science, which is immediately obvious if you actually take care to read it, and that every attempt to disprove his findings regarding the supposed gas chambers have failed miserably.
vho.org...
Not that it matters. Freedom of speech is not about being right, it’s about the right of being wrong!

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Tussilago]

Military Empowerment by Stealth

The recent ruling by the German Constitutional Court arguing whether the German-created Lisbon Treaty is constitutional has more far reaching effects than most have realized. At its roots, the ruling has more to do with empowering Germany’s military force than anything else!

The Lisbon Treaty, which is really the European Constitution in new clothes, opens the way for the European Union to exhibit
vastly more military clout than is apparent at present. Should the treaty be finally ratified, the next-to-last element cementing the EU’s global superpower status would be in place: the opportunity to become a united global military power, with an initial combined force of 2 million men at arms and a unified military equipment industrial output spanning the whole continent.

To counter the United States, the EU has superseded the U.S. in diplomatic, economic and informational power. But the EU has yet to match, let alone exceed, U.S. military might. This is the full intention of EU/German elites, as it has been since their ideological forebears went underground to pursue their dream of global conquest by subterfuge during the closing stages of World War II.

However, what recently became obvious to German elites is that the very constitution of their making, known as the Lisbon Treaty, had a glaring gap: While it creates the avenue for the formation of that penultimate element of national power to become a reality under German dominance of the European Union, it denies Germany its sole sovereign right to decide on the deployment of its military forces. The fact that all other 26 EU member nations were denied such a right is beside the point. Since the resurrection of the German High Command under its rather innocuous title of the Military Command Council, German military and political elites have intended to secure sole power over the command of Europe’s 2 million-man combined military force.

The German Constitutional Court sought to fix that problem.

“[T]he court used a trick by declaring the treaty per se as constitutionally compliant, but at the same time declaring that part of the accompanying legislation as unconstitutional, which was used by the Bundestag (lower house) and Bundesrat (upper house) to ratify the treaty …. An important aspect is the decision-making process regarding military deployments of the European Union” (Informationsstelle Militarisierung, August 6)

Yes, “[T]he Lisbon Treaty creates vast new military competence for the EU,” this article continues. However, “[O]ne of the questions was, who is going to decide whether the German federal army will participate in a military operation of the EU? The judges of the Constitutional Court have now clarified that this is the exclusive authority of the Bundestag.”

Through this “trick” of the German Constitutional Court, Germany must give the “go” on any deployment of any EU battle group. In other words, should the Lisbon Treaty be ratified by all EU member nations? Following the forced Irish vote in October, the EU will find that not only are the most vital EU parliamentary committees now dominated by Germany, but the deployment of EU battle groups—should the relevant changes to German legislation be endorsed by the German parliament—will be essentially at the direction of the German High Command under German parliamentary approval!

To be sure, certain legal challenges will have to be faced in Germany so the parliamentary process does not inhibit rapid deployment of EU battle groups when required. But with Germany now having a firm hand on the whip of the European Parliament, and a legal prerogative likely that will trump the EU in the event of any legal conflict between that parliament and the German national will, it becomes patently obvious that the pace and the direction of the development of EU military power will be essentially Germanic!

Once this element of power—military force—is in place within the EU, it will remain for just one final element of power to be added: the ideological glue that will bind the EU together: the Roman Catholic religion. Should the Lisbon Treaty proceed to ratification, then watch 2010 very closely for the Vatican to move ahead aggressively to enable that final element of power to become a reality!