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German High Court Hijacking EU

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posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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Let us start this thread again.

Germany’s Federal Constitutional Court recently ruled that the Lisbon Treaty is compatible with the German constitution.
On June 30, the court rejected complaints by some German lawmakers that the treaty violated the constitution, and decided that “the substance of German state authority is protected” in the treaty.
EU leaders are so relieved Berlin said ja to Lisbon that they appear to have given little thought to a colossal caveat attached to the ruling.

Germany’s constitution “says yes to the Lisbon Treaty,” stated presiding judge Andreas Vokuhle in his verdict, which was televised nationally, “but calls at national level for a strengthening of parliamentary responsibility”

What does Vokuhle mean by the “strengthening of parliamentary responsibility”? He means this: Before Germany ratifies the Lisbon Treaty, it must strengthen the German parliament’s influence on EU decisions made in Brussels. Therefore, a law is now being created that will demand members of the Bundestag approve any change to the Lisbon Treaty, or any expansion of EU power, before it can be imposed on Germany.

By nature, this law essentially equips Germany with the power to hijack the EU!

Peter Gauweiler, member of the right-wing Christian Socialist Union, spearheaded the challenge against the Lisbon Treaty. Although he lost his appeal and Germany is preparing to ratify Lisbon, Gauweiler was more than satisfied with the federal court’s far-reaching stipulation. “It’s a very sweeping decision on the Lisbon Treaty as a whole,” he told Spiegel Online.
“In 91 pages, the Federal Constitutional Court expressly held that the treaty and its accompanying law must conform to Germany’s constitution, the so-called Basic Law ….”
Germany has been chiseling itself a seat atop of Europe ever since its reunification in 1989. With its location at the heart of the Continent, its large population and its economic and political clout, it has been quite successful. This legal stipulation gives Germany unparalleled influence in Brussels. EU leaders will essentially be held hostage by Berlin; they will be forced to take the German constitution and German opinion into account when formulating virtually every law, every policy and every decision.
Essentially, it will make Berlin, not Brussels, the epicenter of EU law and policy!
The Germans are working fast too. In response to the court ruling, the Bundestag (the lower house of the German parliament) will meet in August to draft the new law.
The bill will undergo a second reading in early September. Upon approval, it will be attached as an addendum to Germany’s official ratification of the Lisbon Treaty before national elections on September 27. EU leaders are tickled that Germany is being so expeditious in ratifying Lisbon. They hope Berlin embracing this EU constitution will provide fresh, much-needed impetus to Ireland, the Czech Republic and Poland, which have all yet to ratify the treaty.
EU leaders are so consumed with dreams of European unity that they ignore the nightmare that could come with German ratification of the Lisbon Treaty.
Even a cursory reading of the German media’s response to the court ruling ought to have shocked them into seeing reality.
The federal court’s verdict “takes the German parliament to task,” observed the German paper Sddeutsche Zeitung. “German politicians will need to become involved with every new law, no matter how small. … And with this decision European integration becomes part of Germany’s domestic politics. … This spectacularly clever verdict artfully says that European integration will not be stopped—but will be making a little detour through Germany, where it will benefit from some added democracy.”
“This is the end of European integration as we know it,” wrote the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. “Germany will support the Lisbon Treaty, but only under strict conditions.

Continued in next post




posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 01:54 PM
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Continued From Previous Post

And anyone who wants to found a European state must now ask for the permission of the German people.” Multiple issues are already lining up, waiting for adjudication by the German court, the article said, and the “message is loud and clear: We wear the pants.”

Observed Handelsblatt: The German federal court clearly sees the “European Parliament as a minor instrument which is ‘not suited to major political decisions.’”
The German business daily continued: “For Karlsruhe [the city in which the German federal court is located], democracy
has only one important organ: the national constitution. And that’s not exactly an altruistic move—because by saying this, the Constitutional Court is also increasing its own claim to legislative power.
Only Karlsruhe can stop Brussels from going overboard, only Karlsruhe can protect principles of democracy. And that secures Karlsruhe a long sought-after advantage over various European tribunals.”

Could this ruling be any more plain? When it comes to EU affairs, Germany considers the European Parliament a minor instrument, and the German national constitution, and the German federal court, the supreme authority!
Under the new law, the German high court will often supersede the European Union courts. Take the European Court of Justice, for instance. If it makes a decision at odds with German national law, or if Germany perceives that it oversteps its authority, German citizens will have the right to legal protection by the Federal Constitutional Court, even against EU regulations.
It must comfort German citizens to know they stand above EU law.
But what about the lawmakers in Brussels, or the citizens of the other 26 EU member nations? Brussels will be forced to formulate laws and policies with the German high court peering over its shoulder, ready to shred any decision that doesn’t align with German interests or the German constitution. Citizens of other member states will have to stand idly by as the EU is stealthily subjugated by Berlin.
That’s democracy, German-style!
In its ruling, the German high court expressed concern that the EU in its current form is an undemocratic institution. It argued that this new law strengthening the role of the German parliament in Brussels would make the EU more democratic.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by starwarp2000
reply to post by Fett Pinkus
 

This thread is seeking intelligent discussion on the implications of this to a United Europe.


If this is so then why post:


Believe it or not, this resurrected German empire is about to touch your life!



This legal decision will equip Berlin with far-reaching leverage over EU law and policy, and will ultimately advance Germany’s prophetic march to become the unchecked leader of a united European empire.



What is next hijacking of the European Armies?



The only implications are for our politicians who have to check every law made by the EU to see if it supersedes our own german laws!!

Its about time this happened as Feeborn rightly said, he wishes his politicians would do the same.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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Well, I am in the US and want nothing to do with giving ONE feeking ounce of sovereignty over to a corrupt foreign body so I would agree with Germany on this and hope the rest of the nations wake up. (Every one of your nations should have the power to veto and not implement something that impacts them)

Why have the EU? Why not have a stronger UN!!! (Sarcasm).

Why not follow the "democratically passed UN laws" that are voted on by Russia, China, Syria, Iran, etc?

Why - Because they give a flying rat's ass about your country or the people in it and you know it...... the so called "corrupt" judges and politicians do not have YOUR best interest in mind. They will gladly "redistribute" your wealth, jobs, and property to enrich themselves and THEIR interests. Not much difference with the EU in my opinion. What might benefit Europe may totally screw over your individual nations. Why give them that kind of power? Do you seriously trust your member nations (or worse, unelected "answer to nobody" judges" to have your nations best interest in mind? Really?

A loose confederation of agree'ed upon, individually by subject ratifications by "participating" (in other words, the by the subject, by the issue, choice of weather to participate or not as you go) seems to be a solution.

Don't create another power hungry beurocratic monster!


Maybe I am mis-informed....

What "Good" has EU laws done for you, the individuals of Europe? What have been the true "Positive impacts" on your life due to EU laws? I guess I need to know that from you since I see only the nefarious and unscrupulous side of the organization.

What has the EU done for you?



[edit on 19-7-2009 by infolurker]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by Fett Pinkus
 


OK you seem to have missed the point.

Lets look at what Germany can and can't do, by these addendum to the Ratification of the Lisbon Treaty.

Under full ratification of all all member states of the EU, all Laws will be stipulated from Brussels, it being the central authority.

Germany ratification of the Treaty "with Addendum" has the following implications:

1) EU leaders will essentially be held hostage by Berlin; they will be forced to take the German constitution and German opinion into account when formulating virtually every law, every policy and every decision.

2) Essentially, it will make Berlin, not Brussels, the epicenter of EU law and policy!

3) Anyone who wants to found a European state must now ask for the permission of the German people.

4) Under the new law, the German high court will often supersede the European Union courts.

5) But what about the lawmakers in Brussels, or the citizens of the other 26 EU member nations? Brussels will be forced to formulate laws and policies with the German high court peering over its shoulder, ready to shred any decision that doesn’t align with German interests or the German constitution. Citizens of other member states will have to stand idly by as the EU is stealthily subjugated by Berlin.

6) This new law will NOT make the EU more democratic. Germany will be the only member with a greater voice. It’s a stealthy ambush of Brussels that will only make the European Union even more German-centric, German-dependent and German-dominated.

7) This legal decision will equip Berlin with far-reaching leverage over EU law and policy.

HENCE THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD: "THE GERMAN HIGH COURT'S HIJACKING OF THE EU"

Yes, we can no longer talk of a "Union" when one member nation has precedent over all others.

Take for example: England submits a Law to Brussels to increase road taxes to pay for increased unemployment. Normally Brussels would make a ruling and return a verdict on whether this is allowed. But now Brussels must pass the law through German Parliament to see if it violates the German Constitution! So Germany will have the final say in every EU law passed.

Please discuss the ramifications of this on your life if you live in Europe and on World trade or anything else you can think off.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by infolurker
 


I couldn't agree with you more infolurker. A stronger UN would be the best answer. I am no fan of the EU, but this is what Europe has locked itself into.
A strong NATO was destroyed by the EU and the UN has become a "Paper Tiger".
I too would love to see a peaceful, friendly Europe working together for unity, peace and the betterment of all, but i don't think it will happen.



posted on Jul, 21 2009 @ 01:48 AM
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reply to post by starwarp2000
 



3) Anyone who wants to found a European state must now ask for the permission of the German people.


Not true because, we the people, dont have a say in the whole process as all descions get ratified by the politicians. If we were asked, e.g. in a referendum, it could well happen that we would vote against it like the Irish did. The politicians know this and have said thats why they decide whats best for us and wont let us decide for overselves.


But what about the lawmakers in Brussels, or the citizens of the other 26 EU member nations? Brussels will be forced to formulate laws and policies with the German high court peering over its shoulder, ready to shred any decision that doesn’t align with German interests or the German constitution.


Whats wrong with that? Other EU countries should do the same and stand up to those bureaucrats in Brussels who often pass stupid laws like what vegetables should look like! (Im glad that laws now been scrapped again).

What Im basically trying to say is that we Germans are looking out for ourselves first and others in the EU should do the same.




What has the EU done for you?


@Infolurker well there are a few good things like being able to cross different borders more easily as a private person. Free trade within the EU making it easier for Companies to shift goods cross border.

10 things that are good

For me personally I would say that the food labelling is very important for me. I couldnt stand having genetically modified stuff on my plate, the same goes for cloned meat which is being sold in the US


So to sum it up:

some things the EU have done are very good but they should cut the bureaucratic stuff a bit and see what ordinary people want. I sometimes get the impression that they have no idea what the ordinary bloke in the street wants or what bothers him.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 04:25 AM
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Great post, thanks for the info

However, I fail to see how Germany is trying to control or take over the EU. But like Freeborn said, what they mean is they will only agree with EU laws if it's in their best interest to do so. It's the same if the U.S. would only accept a UN resolution if it's in their best interest. Washington has done this many times.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 04:36 AM
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Good on Germany.
Its good to see there are some countries left who won't be pushed around.
Hopefully more countries in the EU will follow suit.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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UPDATE: LATEST BREAKING NEWS

The new EU Parliament president, Jerzy Buzek, will have an uphill battle resisting pressure from the powerful German lobby within the new Parliament’s ranks. German parliamentary members have been elected to three of the most powerful legislative committees in the new European Parliament—the influential industry, research and energy committee; the environment committee; and the new legal affairs committee.

In addition, a German member of the European Parliament now heads a special committee investigating the financial crisis. Industry, energy, environment, legal affairs and the financial crisis—about the sum total of all major EU business—will now be under German leadership in the European Parliament!
With such a powerful influence in the formulation of EU legislation—even without the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty—Germany has clearly jumped to the lead as the most dominant political and legislative power in Europe by virtue of its new strength within the European Parliament.
However, if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified by Germany and the remaining
dissenting nations—Ireland, Poland and the Czech Republic—sign up to it, the political power that Germany will then gain will be significantly greater, even above and beyond that which it has just won in the European Parliament. European Voice has commented, “If and when the Lisbon Treaty comes into force, Germany stands to be the big winner. The introduction of a system of voting in the Council of Ministers by double majority, taking into account the population represented by the member states as well as their allocation of votes, will favor Germany” (July 9).

European Voice

But there’s a fly in the EU ointment, and a very German fly at that.

In the wake of a recent ruling by Germany’s Constitutional Court applying certain conditions to Germany’s pending ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, Euroskeptic elements within Germany’s main political parties are seeking a declaration asserting the primacy of German law over EU law. This is the backlash to the court’s ruling on two main issues: that Germany’s parliament should have the final say if the EU wants to make any change to the existing Lisbon Treaty and that Germany’s highest court should decide on interpretation of EU law.

CONTINUED NEXT POST



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 11:21 PM
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CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

The effect of these conditions would be to overturn the present situation where EU law trumps any member nation’s sovereign law. This is the very reverse of the situation which Germany has forced on other EU member nations to ensure that they toe the EU line. It seems that what is good for the goose is not good for the gander in the eyes of Germany’s Constitutional Court.

Until Germany’s challenge to the EU legal powers is settled, the very future of the European Union hangs in the balance. This is a crisis that Chancellor Angela Merkel can ill afford as Germany’s federal election looms just two months away.

Given the history, it is intriguing to note that the party Edmund Stoiber led for so long—and Franz Josef Strauss before him—the Bavarian based Christian Social Union (csu), is the main antagonist in causing this legal crisis within Germany and the EU. EUobserver notes that:


“Some politicians, particularly from the csu, sister party to the governing Christian Democratic Union, now want Germany’s parliament to have the right to approve Berlin’s position before it negotiates EU decisions in Brussels”


For Merkel, riding the crest of a wave of popularity and seen by many to be a shoo-in for another term as chancellor following Germany’s September elections, the timing could not be worse. This places the former party of her old béte noire, Edmund Stoiber, right in the middle of fomenting trouble that could cause Merkel great political difficulty within both Germany and the EU on the eve of the German election.

What will be the outcome of this current political and legal crisis in Germany and the EU?

The effects could be enormous for the future direction of both.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by thereaintnospoon
 


Thanks for your input thereaintnospoon.

German actions to remove law making and approval decisions from Brussels to Berlin, indeed show that it not only plans to take over the EU, but dictate how it's future path is determined.

See my latest update for more info.

Cheers.



[edit on 24-7-2009 by starwarp2000]



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by Flighty
 


Yes flighty, Germany won't be "pushed around" but it pushes around other member states of the EU.

In a Union of nations there shouldn't be only one country calling the shots, else it is no longer a "UNION" but a "DICTATORSHIP"

Please review my latest addition and tell me what you think.

Cheers.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 08:51 AM
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Let me, a bit belatedly, comment on a few points:

1. This is a decision by the german constitutional court. It is not a (decisionmaking) political organ; it is also not concerned with foreign (or domestic, for that matter) policy. Its concern is to uphold the power structure set forth in the german basic law. This means that it was NOT the aim of the court to increase german influence in EU matters; the aim of this ruling is to force the GERMAN parliament to take more responsibility in EU decisionmaking.

Now what is the difference? The difference is that there has been a trend to shift unneeded responsibility, but also blame, from the german to the EU authorities. "Let Brussels handle it!" has seemed to become a viable political paradigm to steer clear of uncomfortable discussions. This is what the court wanted to change, it wanted to RE-introduce responsibility european policy into the german parliament, not increase the influence of german policy in the EU parliament (and, by the way, also strengthen the importance of the constitutional court).

Not to forget, the german parliament will only rule on EU matters under specific circumstances. Contrary to what has been claimed, it will not have a say in every decision.

2. You are criticising that Germany tries to unduly increase its influence on the EU. Let me tell you however, Germany is "merely" cashing in a debt the other EU countries have been running up for decades. Germany simply is, by all relevant measures, the most powerful country in Europe - this is undenied. Germany has however for years artificially capped its influence to appease the other big players in the EU - all the while paying for a majority of the bloody thing; now circumstances have arose that require Germany to let go off that voluntary restriction.

It is quite remarkable that neither the "old powers" France and UK nor the traditional mediators, the EU co-founding BENELUX countries, have in any vehemence criticised this development - they know it was only matter of time.

Which leads us to
3. What are these circumstances that require Germany to wake up from its sleeping beauty´s slumber?

It is that several EU members have apparently forgotten or not yet realized that the EU is not the rich uncle that you dont visit for years but call once in a while when you need money for your new car; the EU works by reciprocity, meaning to have beneficial output, you need to put something in first - be that political clout, shares of sovereignity, money or just trust.

There is also the problem that various interest groups haev for years campaigned to paint the EU as a lumbering, hostile entity whose sole aim is to exact power and work on the pensions of a few thousand EU diplomats - put in a nutshell like this one may realize how ridiculous these allegations are.

To the contary, the EU IS the servant of the European people, and like any governing entity, it will also need something in return once in a while to get anything done. Whoever denies it that necessity is not a noble free-spirited EU-sceptic, he´s just a moron.

Now, to stop with the amateur-philosophical diatribe, lets look at the facts: Germany already is underrepresented, yet was still the most vocal EU player to support the EU enlargement and also overrepresentation of said smaller countries.
Germany pushed through the Euro despite having one of the most stable international currency - mind that the Euro is also unfluenced by EU nations that have not accepted it as their national currency.
Germany is the highest net payer, yet supported not only many foreign national caveats and gigantic money transfers to old and new EU countries alike - of course jacking up its trade balance that way, but lets try to explain these functions to Johnny Everyman on the street - more than one german politican sacrificed their carreer on the altar of their own foresightedness, doing what was right against public animosity.

In any case, this behaviour corresponded with the german national character to show a stoic, unanimous front and make decisions in the background.

What happened then is that some EU members somehow lost the foundations and raisons d´être of the EU, as well as the aforementioned principle of reciprocity, out of sight. Suddenly seemingly everyone felt entitled to make the EU their bitch (pardon my french), trying to preserve an outdated status quo they actually signed over with the EU ascension. Suddenly everyone wanted to turn the EU into their favor, a favor in which it had perfectly worked all along.

This was not limited to the three but especially painful when it came from nations that owed so much to the EU and Germany. Poland, Ireland and the Czech Republic are among the largest beneficiaries of the EU cash flow and of the increased importance they gained through it. And now they stalled the whole thing for largely (not completely) phoney reasons, with Poland being exceptionally honest about it in stating through the flowers that they wanted to dumb down german influence and increase the benefits for and the power of the "smaller" countries (read: Poland).

Now, to cut a long story short, to counter this crisis of overdependence on states representing only a small part of the EU, and which gave way to rampant EU-scepticism and agents provocateurs across the board which tied the hands of France and Britain, Germany is forced to rise and present itself as the focal point for everyone that still feels that giving the EU some room to maneuver is a somehow clever idea.

This latest court decision is only one stepping stone in this process, while serving the convenient function of slapping those countries in the face that felt their only option was to stall the whole thing. it has been forced to stand up, swing the hammer and call the "EU court" to order. And especially those that criticised the EU for its apparent lack of democracy will have to accept that Germany has the biggest say in matters according to that standard. Germany is by the way not alone in this as many EU members have already and will continue to rally behind it to break the stalemate.

-Sorry, this has grown a lot longer than I thought...

[edit on 3/8/2009 by Lonestar24]



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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...But just to add one more point, one should not get carried away by a too romantic view of democracy. democracy can be just as tyrannic as an oligarchy, because the majority rule is always a bully. Technically a pure democracy can take everything away from you if only a majority votes for it. Just think about how many people around you you dislike or despise; personally I wouldnt want to be decided upon by my neighbours (if only in theory).

Thats why we democratically elect PEOPLE to run a REPUBLIC for us, as the decisionmakers in a republic are bound by law, not the majority vote. Thus, every call for "more democracy" (mostly meaning more of our OWN democracy, which then again infringes on the democratic rights of others) is also a vote against the importance of standing law.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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The EU has been on life support since its inception. It was ram rodded into being over a great majority of the populace of Europe in hopes of getting total control over these sovereign nations. Just like the UN, this body of unelected and unfettered power hungry bureaucrats get their panties in a bunch when someone figures out it's a total scam and calls them on their bluff. All of Europe should shed them selves of this monstrosity and begin again as they were before it was forced onto them. Europe was a much better place before and will be again after the EU falls into the crap hole of history like the 'League of Nations'!

Zindo



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by infolurkerA loose confederation of agree'ed upon, individually by subject ratifications by "participating" (in other words, the by the subject, by the issue, choice of weather to participate or not as you go) seems to be a solution.

Don't create another power hungry beurocratic monster!


Maybe I am mis-informed...


Aye to that and you're not misinformed as far as I can tell. Viewing this lot from Sweden, I'm only surprised it is Germany taking a stand for national liberty on this occasion.
I mean, Germany is by far among the worst in Europe when it comes to bending over backwards to the PTB - all due to the moral blackmail imposable on the German nation on account of history:

- "If you're against this limitation of free speech/destruction of academical freedom/limitation of civil rights/massive immigration scheme, so and so it must be because you're secretly a Nazi!"

- "Oh no, please! Pass the legislation, rape our daughters, do what you will, just don't call us Nazis!"

Maybe only Sweden is actually worse than Germany when it comes to political correctness. In any case, the OP must have a screw loose if he thinks the compliant serf that is the German establishment actually aspires to "European Empire" by EU legislation footnoting!


[edit on 4-8-2009 by Tussilago]



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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Anyone ever read the book, The Budapest Protocol?

Well if you want to take a conspiratorial angle on this, it makes things really interesting. The book is fiction, but it is based on an intelligence document released called the Red House Report. The Nazis, seeing the end was near in 1944, decided to ship all of their capitol into industrial giants and neutral nations(Switzerland). This was in hopes of a quick recovery after the war, as well as plans to conquer Europe economically after military defeat through the creation of a European superstate. Maybe true, maybe not, but is sure makes for a hell of an interesting read, the book is pretty good too, and it includes the Red House Report for reference.

The # of it is though, is that many of the options for continued German dominance of the continent, albeit in an economic fashion, have come to fruition in our lifetime. Who's to say this isn't just another step?


[edit on 8/5/2009 by ludaChris]



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by Tussilago
 



the OP must have a screw loose


It was all going well until you showed your true intelligence.
Try again next time.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by ludaChris
Anyone ever read the book, The Budapest Protocol?

Well if you want to take a conspiratorial angle on this, it makes things really interesting. The book is fiction, but it is based on an intelligence document released called the Red House Report. The Nazis, seeing the end was near in 1944, decided to ship all of their capitol into industrial giants and neutral nations(Switzerland). This was in hopes of a quick recovery after the war, as well as plans to conquer Europe economically after military defeat through the creation of a European superstate. Maybe true, maybe not, but is sure makes for a hell of an interesting read, the book is pretty good too, and it includes the Red House Report for reference.

The # of it is though, is that many of the options for continued German dominance of the continent, albeit in an economic fashion, have come to fruition in our lifetime. Who's to say this isn't just another step?


[edit on 8/5/2009 by ludaChris]


How true ludaChris,
That book of fiction was written from the Red House Report and Operation Paperclip etc. It goes to show you that Germany has fulfilled all of it's plans for a Fourth Reich and is in the process of more planning.
You have a good grasp of world events.

Cheers




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