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On the basis of Morality.

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posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 01:45 AM
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Christopher Hitchens, inspired me to create this thread, which I think poses a great and almost absolute question to those who say that without *Religion Here* morality would be thrown out the window along with a kid.

I suppose this to be incorrect, that morality, is a evolutionary tool for survival.

So I pose the inevitable question proposed by Hitchens

"What moral action, can you do as a religious person, that I as an Atheist, would be unable to do?"

If you do not wish to answer this question or cannot answer it, and wish to rebuttal in a different way, feel free to do so, feel completely free to do so! I will accept embrace and answer it, I hope to hold a firm grasp on morality, and influence the opposing sides thoughts on it, or at best sharpen my own sword in the answer.

Welcome, and let it begin. Respectfully.




posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 01:50 AM
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Let me be the first to say I hate christopher hitchens.

hes like a whiney child who never shuts up and just gets payed to be a talking head. He offers nothing to society and who cares what christopher htichens think. to so many people he is their god. so frustrating.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 01:53 AM
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reply to post by tigpoppa
 


We are not discussing the man but the content in specific of what has been said.

By that, I know you will be starred or whatever, for being a hate talker to a person, many despise, which is an easy thing to do, and a well liked, flowing downstream process.

Let's not let this be deterred from my main point please.


(Funny, I was really expecting the first post to be by Slayer69..... it's on morality how can it not be!)



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 01:57 AM
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i watched a debate earlier (the first ive seen with hitchens) and i was quite disappointed.

but i digress...


i think morality is, in the end, subjective for the most part.
ive heard arguments for objective morality (without a diety) from people i respect, but it either didnt click with me, or i was missing something. i dont know.

but i think in reality morals are decided by society for the most part.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:00 AM
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There is not a single thing that one human can do that another human cannot do.

Christians do not have a patent on Morality. Morality existed tens of thousands of years before the advent of their Christ. It will continue to exist tens of thousands of years after their God sends them their Rapture.

Likewise, just because someone worships a different deity, or no deity at all, or doesn't believe in the existence of any deity, doesn't make them Immoral or Amoral by default.

Morality is a choice, and not a choice that one gets to make but once when they are "saved by Grace and forever free of sin", but a choice one must make in every single action that they do. Morality cares not for your religious persuasion, or lack thereof. It is simply the deliberate and willful Cause that is the antecedent to an Effect.

So now, who is this Christopher Hitchens fellow?



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:00 AM
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Atheists can't be tricked into blowing themselves up in a crowded market place in return for 72 virgins.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by Kaytagg
Atheists can't be tricked into blowing themselves up in a crowded market place in return for 72 virgins.


well....if they were able to rebuild me like the 6 million dollar man, id be first in line!!!



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:05 AM
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I agree with you. Morality is a product of evolution. It is because we all have points of inevitible vulnerability and at this understanding you begin to see the advantages of getting along and being friends.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:07 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


Very interesting proposition, Republican08! I look forward to reading the replies. Morals are not the sole property of organized religion. There are some religious morals that are actually harmful, in my opinion, but there are certain morals and ethics that are universal to all human cultures. If religion were to disappear tomorrow, I don't think that morals and ethics would just suddenly disappear! Just some of the silly ones!



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
 


Can I ask which debate, because i'm sure I could find a redeeming one for you, if you would take the time. Most are influenced to ridicule him, like Stein did to Dawkins.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
I agree with you. Morality is a product of evolution. It is because we all have points of inevitible vulnerability and at this understanding you begin to see the advantages of getting along and being friends.


Wertdagf it is a honor for your presence on my thread, you were my first friend, although deleted since I figured you left ATS, you're uncaring for anothers feelings, whilst withholding to reason, has made me to admire you the most of all ats members, glad to see you're still on here!



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:11 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


it was the hitchins v turken(or something along those lines) debate.

i felt like i could have answered many of the questions in a more satisfying and less verbose way.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:12 AM
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What's it matter if morality came from a deity, evolution or the toilet seat at Dennys? And even then, you could have evolution with a deity as the originator.


[edit on 19-7-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:12 AM
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reply to post by fraterormus
 


If you'd like to see the most recent video of him please see my thread here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's been singled to see the videos only



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
reply to post by Republican08
 


it was the hitchins v turken(or something along those lines) debate.

i felt like i could have answered many of the questions in a more satisfying and less verbose way.


I'd suggest watching the one he took on four theists in www.youtube.com...

There ya go, for an idea of the man.

I used to hate him but have swung the pendelum the other way now.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:15 AM
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I think morality is over rated. The christians can keep their claim to it; I feel the average christian is no different than a murderer on death row. The only difference is the average christian cowers into false cover of 'morality', and the murderer knows what they did, and where there going.

I hope you understood that.

To me the real key to survival is RESPECT. It is what is used throughout the world as a means to interact amongst different cultures, and to avoid problems.

I think any glimpse of the abstract concept of morality is through a keen insite of RESPECT.

Just my two cents.

Star, and Flag



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:19 AM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


Because morality is a commonly used tactic by, educated and uneducated theists.

Religious people tend to see that morals, *ten commandments*, come from a diving being to help us guide our lives, a controlling power.

I knew you'd pop up sooner or later :p

Evolution with a deity, would be like telling someone that god put the plate their, but when they say they say a woman put the plate there, they refute with god had the woman put the plate there, which could make a god null and void.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:23 AM
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reply to post by TornMind
 


Good point, the main thing we want is respect.

It is why gangs are formed, to feel respect.

It is why we seek a higher education for respect.

It is why we do what we do, is for respect, and it's something I think everyone wants is respect.

I actually saw a white van today. On the back of it, it read, "Midlothian Bible Church, and Youth Adventure Group".

I about threw up, I saw at least two dozen children of ages of 4-12 outside waiting for the gas to be pumped.

I said to myself, if you're going to make someone believe something stupid, you better do it while their young and ignorant, and told not to question anything an elder teaches!

I see child indoctrination as a very awful thing to be moral for, children are children let them play in a sandbox, don't make them study a bible.

I had my youth ripped away partly by kiwanas, if you know what that is, and are atheist you understand the despise of it.

:Typo

[edit on 19-7-2009 by Republican08]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:26 AM
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Just as a note.

I still have not received a answer to the question mentioned in the OP.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 02:28 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


You mean simular to the tactic you are using now? Two wrongs don't equal a right. And neither is control freak central to the concept of a deity. I really must apologise as you know I do respect you but that last statement was definantly the lamest I have ever seen typed. There are any number of possible methodologies a "deity/god/prime mover/whatever" and setting up conditions in which evolution happens is one of them. Sorry, evolution doesn't refute the possibility of a higher power hate to tell you. Been listening to Dawkins too much I see.



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