Jesus Christ is NOT the way

Originally posted by The Soothsayer
reply to post by metamagic

 

You apparently missed the rest of the post in which you quoted me. Here, allow me to refresh your memory..

It is the teachings, not the man, that should be followed. By following the man, all you are doing is being set up for worshiping false idols. By studying and learning the teachings, you open yourself for greater things.

So, wouldn't that pretty much nullify your first comment?

As for the second... I suppose that the US would be considered a Christian nation; we aren't as fanatical as, say, Irish Catholics, but yes, they are here. But to say that the divine spray their seed about willy-nilly seems rather preposterous, especially when Poseidon's method of just foaming the oceans with his seed was much more cost effective. Besides which, with every major religious or spiritual group, directly under the High God, you'll find that the number four appears quite a bit: 4 archangels, the 4 great spirits, the 4 bacab; coupled with the teachings that "I am known by many names, all paths lead to me", would it not stand to reason that there would have been four teachers (or in this case, four messiahs) going forth?

As for your first point... no. Again I would say no physical attribute of a person, no citing of supposedly sacred scriptures of any religion or any external signs like lights in the sky or mysterious albino animals and no display of alleged miracles would be taken by self as proof or evidence of the divine. A teaching is not the divine, a teaching is bound by physical limits and conceptualizations and by perceptions. On the other hand, one's direct experience with the divine is quite persuasive because it is none of these things. Teaching and learning are preparations for the start of understanding, they are not understanding in themselves, no matter how much you have learned. Understanding comes form direct experience.

As for the second point, it was supposed to be light and not serious. It seems amusing to me that a nation whose lawmakers and enforces are so obsessed with underage sexuality and who treat it with the same level of severity as murder in some cases, often use as justification the Judeo-Christian rules as they see them set out in the bible. But which in an ironic (i.e. humorous) twist means that the very god they worship is a sexual predator under their laws.

As for the four messiahs or whatever. bit to mumbo jumbo-ish for simple old me. I guess if you are convinced you need saving then you spend a lot of time looking for messiahs.

Peace to you friend.

[edit on 18-7-2009 by metamagic]

[edit on 18-7-2009 by metamagic]

The good thing about being a Kabbalist (a traditional one, not one of those Hollywood types) is that I can pick and choose from a wide variety of religions and beliefs. One might say that I have all bases covered!

As far as my points going towards your points... it was late (for me) when I wrote them, I'll have to double check to see what was all said and done. Maybe I had missed something.

Now, as a general comment... this is why I like these kind of debates instead of the kind on the other thread. The overall tone may be different, but everything is, for the most part, civil, with a good mix of examples... and no bashing.

There may not be any stars and flags, so I guess this will have to do =>

reply to post by 12.21.12


Okay, thanks for clarifying which Cleopatra we will discuss.

As for the Queen. In her right hand is a scepter, in her left is an orb and she is sitting on a throne chair. Also, though it can't be seen in this photo, there is a rock of some type that is said to signify something or another that has sat under the throne in the past.







[edit on 18-7-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Very good you are correct. Under the throne sits the stone of scone.



en.wikipedia.org...

The Stone of Scone (pronounced /ˈskuːn/), also commonly known as the Stone of Destiny or the Coronation Stone is an oblong block of red sandstone, about 26 inches (660 mm) by 16 inches (410 mm) by 10.5 inches (270 mm) in size and weighing approximately 336 pounds (152 kg). The top bears chisel-marks. At each end of the stone is an iron ring, apparently intended to make transport easier. Historically, the artifact was kept at the now-ruined abbey in Scone, near Perth, Scotland. It was used for centuries in the coronation of the monarchs of Scotland, the monarchs of England, and, more recently, British monarchs. Other names by which it has sometimes been known include Jacob's Pillow Stone and the Tanist Stone, and in Scottish Gaelic, clach-na-cinneamhain, clach Sgàin, and Lia(th) Fàil[1]

Legends and Origin
Traditionally, it is supposed to be the pillow stone said to have been used by the Biblical Jacob. According to one legend, it was the Coronation Stone of the early Dál Riata Gaels when they lived in Ireland, which they brought with them when settling Caledonia. Another legend holds that the stone was actually the traveling altar used by St Columba in his missionary activities throughout what is now Scotland. Certainly, since the time of Kenneth Mac Alpin, the first King of Scots, at around 847, Scottish monarchs were seated upon the stone during their coronation ceremony. At this time the stone was situated at Scone, a few miles north of Perth.
Another tradition holds that, in gratitude for Irish support at the battle of Bannockburn (1314), Robert the Bruce gave a portion of the stone to Cormac McCarthy, king of Munster. Installed at McCarthy's stronghold, Blarney Castle, it became the Blarney Stone.[2]
A contemporary account by a Walter Hemingford, a canon of Gisborough Priory in Yorkshire says:
Apud Monasterium de Scone positus est lapis pergrandis in ecclesia Dei, juxta manum altare, concavus quidam ad modum rotundae cathedreaie confectus, in quo future reges loco quasi coronatis.
In the monastery of Scone, in the church of God, near to the high altar, is kept a large stone, hollowed out/concave as a round chair, on which their kings were placed for their ordination, according to custom.

Coronation
en.wikipedia.org...

A coronation is a ceremony marking the investiture of a monarch or their consort with regal power, specifically involving the placement of a crown upon his or her head, and the presentation of other items of regalia. This rite may also include the taking of a special vow, acts of homage by the new ruler's subjects, and/or performance of other ritual deeds of special significance to a given nation. Coronations were once a vital ritual in many of the world's monarchies, but this changed over time due to a variety of socio-political and religious factors. While most monarchies have dispensed with formal coronation rites, preferring simpler enthronement, investiture, or benediction rites, coronations are still held in the United Kingdom, Tonga and several Asian countries. In common usage, "coronation" often simply refers to the official investiture of the monarch with their position, whether an actual crown is bestowed or not.
In addition to the investing of the monarch with a diadem and other symbols of state, coronations often involve anointing with holy oil, or chrism as it is often called. Wherever a ruler is anointed in this way, as in Great Britain and Tonga, this ritual takes on an overtly religious significance, following examples found in the Bible. Some other lands use bathing or cleansing rites, the drinking of a sacred beverage, or other religious practices to achieve a comparable effect. Such acts symbolise the granting of divine favour to the monarch within the relevant spiritual-religious paradigm of the country.

Jacob's Pillow Stone
en.wikipedia.org...

Jacob's Pillow-Pillar Stone
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jacob's Pillow-Pillar Stone refers to an episode in the Book of Genesis 28:10-18 [1] when the Hebrew patriarch Jacob was running from home after getting the blessing of the first born from his father Isaac (and which his brother Esau also wanted), he came to a place where he rested his head on a stone and then consecrated it after God appeared to him in a dream.
The text of Genesis describes the event as follows:
Jacob left Beer-sheba and headed toward Charan. He came to a familiar place and spent the night there because the sun had already set. Taking some stones, he placed them at his head and lay down to sleep there. He had a vision in a dream. A ladder was standing on the ground, and its top reached up toward heaven. God's angels were going up and down on it. Suddenly he saw God standing over him. [God] said, "I am God, Lord of Abraham your father, and Lord of Isaac. I will give to you and your descendants the land upon which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth. You shall spread out to the west, to the east, to the north, and to the south. All the families on earth will be blessed through you and your descendants. I am with you. I will protect you wherever you go and bring you back to this soil. I will not turn aside from you until I have fully kept this promise to you." Jacob awoke from his sleep. "God is truly in this place," he said, "but I did not know it." He was frightened. "How awe-inspiring this place is!" he exclaimed. "It must be God's temple. It is the gate to heaven!" Jacob got up early in the morning and took the stone that he had placed under his head. He stood it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. He named the place God's Temple (Beth El). The town's original name, however, had been Luz. Jacob made a vow. "If God will be with me," he said, "if He will protect me on the journey that I am taking, if He gives me bread to eat and clothing to wear, and if I return in peace to my father's house, then I will dedicate myself totally to God. Let this stone that I have set up as a pillar become a temple to God. Of all that You give me, I will set aside a tenth to You." (Genesis 28: 10-22) [2]

Here is some more information about the skeptor.
www.houstonjewelry.com...

There are five scepters in the Crown Regalia. The Royal Scepter with the Cross is a symbol of kingly power and justice, and is held in the Monarch 's right hand at the coronation. Made for Charles II, it has been altered from time to time and is about three feet in length of gold richly studded with gems. At the top of the scepter is the Orb cut out of a large amethyst, richly girdled with diamonds and rubies surmounted by a magnificent diamond-studded cross with a fine central emerald. The Orb and cross both stand on the largest cut diamond in the world-the Great Star of Africa, the pear-shaped brilliant cut from the Cullinan diamond. This enormous stone weighs 516.5 carats and is quite flawless. It is held in place in the Scepter by two hinged clasps in such way that it can be removed and worn by the Queen.

The King 's Scepter with the Dove is held in the left hand of the Sovereign and is a symbol of equity and mercy. This Scepter too is of gold surrounded by an orb with diamond-studded girdle and a golden cross upon which stands a white enameled dove with outstretched wings. The staff of the Scepter is richly enameled and jeweled. A second Scepter with Dove was made for the Queen at the coronation of William and Mary but has not been used since.

The Queen 's Scepter with the Cross, which is held in the Queen 's right hand (when the Queen is a consort and not a monarch) after she has been crowned is of gold and diamonds. It measures about two feet in length and at the top has a fleur-de-lis, diamond-set holding a gold orb with diamond-set firdle and arch surmounted in turn by a diamond-set cross. In the Queen 's Consort 's left hand is placed the Queen 's Ivory Rod, three and a half feel in length consisting of ivory joined together with bands of gold. At the top is a golden orb, richly enameled surmounted by a cross on which rests a dove with closed wings.

Of the five Swords of State, the one of the greatest intrinsic worth is the Jeweled State Sword, the scabbard of which is thickly set with gems-diamonds, rubies and emeralds being used to depict the Rose of England, the Thistle of Scotland and the Shamrock of Ireland. At the bottom of the scabbard is a fine turquoise set around with diamonds while the hilt is richly jeweled and has a particularly fine diamond set at the top.

Mention should be made of one more jewel÷the Coronation Ring, sometimes known as the Wedding Ring of England, This ring is made for each sovereign and becomes his or her private property on the coronation. Those of Queen Victoria and King George V may be seen in the collection of the Crown Jewels at theTower of London. Both rings consist of a sapphire set around with diamonds and aSt. George 'sCross in rubies superimposed.

The British Crown Jewels in the Jewel House at theTower of London are protected by an armour-plate treasury which takes the form of an octagon measuring about sixteen feet across a small area in which to contain the most famous collection of jewels in the world.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Now that we understand better some of the symbolism. Would you like to try the other one? The one with the Virgin Mary?

Originally posted by 12.21.12
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

Now that we understand better some of the symbolism. Would you like to try the other one? The one with the Virgin Mary?

/sigh

Obviously you don't understand the symbolism if you think your examples are actually those things. They are simply replacements. Under her thrown, it's just a big freaking rock. That is all it is, a big freaking rock. Might people say and actually believe such things? Sure, but it's just a big freaking rock.

The power comes from people who actually believe that crap, and you are simply going right along with it and promoting that sillyness.

This is entirely why I don't get into these discussions. It's about like someone trying to tell me they found the "philosopher's stone" and pulls out a rock from their pocket. I would laugh in their face.

Symbolism and objects...

True, the object itself is not important, but rather the power of the beliefs of the people placed on such objects. The power of belief can be quite strong...

Faith healers and statues of saints need those beliefs to work, or rather, it is the very belief that they will work that makes them work. Voodoo is an other example, but really doesn't belong here (but for some reason, the bones of dead saints does... huh)

Of course it's a rock. A big rock... but for those who accept it for what it is, it becomes so much more. It is that very power of belief that connects so many.

With symbols, again, it matters what people expect out of them. A swastika is a representation of the traveling sun, or the lotus... but for high school teens it is a symbol of rebellion... for our grandparents it is so much more. Images of Mary and Jesus are attributed to Isis and Osiris... Santa Claus looks just like God.

...

Hmm, went on a tangent...

Anyway, backtracking a little bit here... with any symbol or object, just like with any myth and legend, it 1) had to start somewhere, and 2) has some underlining truth behind it, whether or not it is true or altered truth.

Originally posted by badmedia


This is entirely why I don't get into these discussions. It's about like someone trying to tell me they found the "philosopher's stone" and pulls out a rock from their pocket. I would laugh in their face.

Well, hang on badmedia. Let's give him a chance to make his case, present the evidence and explain why Jesus is not the way. Then we can discuss what we agree or don't agree with.......

Then we will get our chance to talk about the Jewish Jesus, we call the Messiah. The worst thing that can happen at the end of this is we all walk away not agreeing and at best we can all get a little history lesson; us on symbolism/Rome and them on Messianic stuff.

reply to post by The Soothsayer


I don't disagree, I've said similiar things before in regards to what "sorcerers" and "relics" really are, and how/why they get their power. But it's not just about belief as far as faith healing or such, as in being of service to such people, but the relics often are used to give power to those who wish to have power, and the power of such relics and symbols comes from those who will follow the symbols. Such as those people following the cross in the crusades and such.

Those people get that power through getting people to believe that is what other things talking about. Like Jesus saying "carry the cross", he isn't talking about a physical cross and such. They aren't physical things originally being talked about, people just create replacements for them and then misguided people without understanding.

Like when I hear stories of Hitler looking for the spear of destiny or the holy grail and such as physical things, I just laugh.

And so he is perpetrating the lie that those replacements and such are the actual things/meanings.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

Now that we understand better some of the symbolism. Would you like to try the other one? The one with the Virgin Mary?

To be honest, I'm not a bit familiar with the painting or the painter. I looked on line through some images but it didn't turn up in any of the searches I attempted. So, I'll just have to go with what my eyes see.

It appears to be the Virgin Mary, sitting on a throne chair, upon clouds (?of Glory?), in her right hand she holds a small scepter, nothing in her left, her left foot rests on a small serpent, roses around her feet, above her are angels with what appears to be a crown or diadem and possibly flowers, and behind them there appears to be a portal or an opening.