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Originally posted by Jenna
Why would we want to? What purpose would be served in our taking over the world? Aside from more debt, more deaths, and more starving people.
I have a better question, why is it that some can't seem to understand that we don't just indiscriminately go after countries or groups? We were attacked, and horribly so. The information we had pointed to bin Laden and Al Qaeda, so that is who we went after. The fool released a video claiming responsibility for heavens sake. 3000 innocent people were murdered over ideological differences. We went after those responsible, as we should have. You don't get to fly our own planes into our own buildings and expect us to sit back and do nothing. Had it not been for that, we wouldn't be in Afghanistan and we wouldn't have gone to Iraq.
Originally posted by Discotech
My mistake, you weren't clear enough with what you were implying so I took it the wrong way.
Originally posted by KSPigpen
I don't buy the story that three thousand people were killed by a few people performing impossible manuevers in commercial aircraft and because of that, we are justified in the murder of hundreds of thousands of men, woman and children.
I am a BIG fan of smacking the hell out someone that actually attacks us, don't get me wrong. I DO buy into the eye for an eye, to a certain extent, but why a thousand eyes for one? When will the world run out of eyes to pay for fabricated 'crimes' against the United States.
My point was, and IS, if we make up this fairy tale crap to murder the people of Afghanistan and the others, why not take it all the way? Why not? It would be just as logical, just as intelligent, just as justified as what we are doing now.
Originally posted by JohnTimothy
We are in afghanistan is because China finished their damn that opened up a route into Cashmere the river bed that has been drying up is a high way into the middle east. No one remembers China and India were at war in 72 or73. We are putting up front lines to the mongal horde.
Originally posted by A.M.L.
Personally, I think jingoism is our God given right.
In a lot of ways, we already have taken over the world. It is OUR culture that is exported (movies, music, and video games), it is OUR military that occupies 130 countries, and it is OUR economy that makes up 30% of the world GDP.
Sounds like an Empire to me.
[edit on 16-7-2009 by A.M.L.]
[edit on 16-7-2009 by A.M.L.]
Jingoism is a pejorative phrase used to describe chauvinistic patriotism, characterized by a readiness to go to war and support for a very aggressive foreign policy.
Originally posted by KSPigpen
What I disagree with is the 'logic' that we are attacking people that 'attacked' us.
The 'terrorists' were Saudi, they weren't Afghani....and before we go THERE, yeah, supposedly, there is 'intelligence' that a big bad man is living in Afghanistan, but don't forget there was 'intelligence' that Iraq had WMDs.
In a prior post, I already addressed the false logic that we are only attacking someone because they attacked us. If that were the case, we would be fighting a lot more wars right now.
Yeah, I agree that 3000 + sets of eyes were lost..what I don't agree with is that it somehow justifies the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people...
How many MORE countries should we invade in the name of finding a person that WE TRAINED anyway?
Al Qaida’s number two leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has confirmed that the “Afghan Arabs” did not receive any U.S. funding during the war in Afghanistan. In the book that was described as his “last will,” Knights Under the Prophet’s Banner, which was serialized in December 2001 in Al-Sharq al-Awsat, al-Zawahiri says the Afghan Arabs were funded with money from Arab sources, which amounted to hundreds of millions of dollars:
“While the United States backed Pakistan and the mujahidin factions with money and equipment, the young Arab mujahidin’s relationship with the United States was totally different.
“… The financing of the activities of the Arab mujahidin in Afghanistan came from aid sent to Afghanistan by popular organizations. It was substantial aid.
Let's just get it over with and invade every country on the planet and kill off thousands of their citizens. Maybe that way we can find the dozen or so 'terrorists' that are responsible for taking American lives.
Originally posted by Jenna
They are the targets. Like I said, the problem is they hide themselves among the civilians. How do you tell who is really a civilian and who isn't when there are no visible signs until it's too late? If they weren't such cowards this would have been finished long ago, but they are so it's not.
Originally posted by alien
reply to post by A.M.L.
...I'd be inclined to agree with you...
...seems the more I walk through the streets of our country's cities and townships the more I see our country's people shovelling Mc-FattyFatFat burgers and supersized Mc-Heartattack Fries in their mouths...wearing stoooopid clothing half down their a$$, listening to ridiculous meaningless music, yearning to purchase some obscenely large and obnoxious overly heavy, overly thirsty, overly slow and bad handling piece of metal monstrosity laughingly referred to as a car or SUV...turn on the TV and the more I see absolute rubbish couched as entertainment, drive down the road for an hour and see at least 4 big Golden Ms, see advertising for celebrations/events such as Halloween which has NOTHING to do with this country...listen to our kids talk smack to their parents, attack their teachers, bemoan any piece of effort they may have to put in their lives or any moment they may have to spend away from their X-box, Playstation, Bebo, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube etc etc etc etc...
...yeah...it my country isn't yet part of the US Empire (despite it apparently officially being part of the British one)...its probably not far from it...
Originally posted by KSPigpen
I think I like you.
But you know the Taliban have occupied that part of the world for a long time. It is no more our job to save the people of Afghanistan from their decisions and lack of action than it is for us to 'police' the world, getting rid of all the 'bad guys.'
I understand the point the we are in Afghanistan 'chasing' people who are allegedly 'hiding' in there. That was never in dispute. If you have accepted that we were lied to about WMDs in Iraq, why would it be so hard to accept lies related to the presence of the bad guys anywhere else?
To follow that logic, we should, understandably be involved in far more wars, in far more places, chasing far more bad guys. Yemen, Iran, Israel for Pete's sake, all perpetrators of attacks against our people. The 'We are attacking the bad guys that bombed us.' argument is very tired.
Between 2001 and 2005, there ARE NO OFFICIAL NUMBERS of civilians killed. They weren't even keeping track. Estimates, by people other than myself, place the numbers between 25 and 60 thousand in Afghanistan alone. Try googling 'civilian deaths in afghanistan.'
I just feel strongly that the almost TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND innocent civilians killed in both of those countries, under the guise of 'catching a few bad guys' is extremely excessive.
Yup, a deathbed confession of a former terrorist. Easy to float when the guy isn't around any more to ask.
I want our troops out of Afghanistan. I want our troops out of ANY country that is not the United States of America. Our days of being the global police force have been outlived.
We should have absolute proof of what we are after and where it is before we subject any more nations to the scorched earth that results from the global bullying of a nation that has no problem making up evidence to destroy the sovereignty of another nation through witch hunts based on lies.
It's not the Taliban that are the targets of our efforts, it's Al Qaeda.
The war in Afghanistan — the war that President-elect Barack Obama pledged to fight and win — has become an aimless absurdity. It began with a specific target. Afghanistan was where Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda lived, harbored by the Islamic extremist Taliban government. But the enemy escaped into Pakistan, and for the past seven years, Afghanistan has been a slow bleed against an array of mostly indigenous narco-jihadi-tribal guerrilla forces that we continue to call the "Taliban." These ragtag bands are funded by opium profits and led by assorted religious extremists and druglords, many of whom have safe havens in Pakistan.
The information we have says they are hiding there, so that's where we're looking. If credible info is found that says otherwise, we'll look where it points us. Personally I think bin Laden died years ago unless he has his own personal doctor and medical machinery hidden in a cave somewhere.
We don't just go after people that make us angry cause we feel like it, though I'm sure there are some that would love to. What is it that Yemen, Iran, and Isreal have done that makes you think we would/should be going after them?
I did, that's where I got my numbers. Between 6k and 24k ware the estimates for 01-03.
In a discussion of that issue at the same conference, Gen. David Barno, the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan from 2003 to 2005, said, "We’ve got to be careful about who controls the narrative on civilian casualties."
Yes, it is excessive, though I do think your numbers are slightly inflated. Not by much, but a bit. What can we do though? How do you prevent civilian deaths when the cowards won't stop hiding among them? How do you prevent civilian deaths when the cowards blow the civilians up themselves and use them as living shields? There's only so much we can do
If we had been the ones who trained and supplied them, don't you think they would have absolutely loved to rub it in our faces? They gloated and bragged about bringing the towers down, why wouldn't they gloat and brag about us training them too if we had? That would be something they would have absolutely loved to do and we never would have heard the end of it. Fact is, we didn't. They were in the same place at the same time as the ones we were supplying and training, but they were not a part of that group.
WASHINGTON — Usama bin Laden (search ) made his first televised appearance in more than a year Friday in which he admitted for the first time ordering the Sept. 11 attacks and accused President Bush of "misleading" the American people.
Saturday, October 30, 2004
I believe it's a little (actually a lot) arrogant to assume that the US is 'right' and everyone else is wrong. Policing the world would take absolute moral high ground and I don't think any nation can claim that. Strange how the US didn't go in on Rwanda, Darfur, Chad etc.
As for the current conflicts; it would have taken a small group of black ops with the right intelligence and the right equipment not-very-long to take out all those "responsible". However, that would preclude any no-bid contracts, huge awards to military suppliers, lots of confusion on a budgetary level (whatever happened to Rumsfeld's inquiry into the missing billions at the pentagon from 9/10/01?), and less political smokescreen.
Originally posted by KSPigpen
It was Al Qaeda that was ORIGNALLY the 'excuse' given for the invasion of Afghanistan. That got old a very long time ago.
You can certainly understand the difficulty I am having with this argument, can you not? You claim that we are chasing Al Qaeda, but then you admit that Bin Laden is probably dead...How can it be both ways?
t is common knowledge, heck even TIME magazine knows it, that he is not IN Afghanistan. It stands to reason, if he has fled to Pakistan, his top commanders can't be too far away.
All three of those countries mentioned were involved in attacks against US citizens.
It's 2009 now. The 'war' in Afghanistan has been going on for over EIGHT YEARS.
The truth of it is, they don't WANT us to know how many civilians have been killed.
I'm going to assume you have read this site about the numbers of civilian dead in Iraq
You can read a book from outer space using the governments satellites, but you can't find a couple dozen people and put a bullet in their heads? Do you really think our military is that inept? There is no reason that this couldn't have been completed already, if what they really wanted was for it to be over.
Why do you think it would take him three years to claim responsibility for something he was apparently very proud of? I have no idea. Seems to me like he would have told us the next day.
Do YOU have proof that Al Qaeda was responsible? Did they have that painted on the planes, or are we just believing what we've been told?
So what should we do then? Change what we call them? What would that change? Just because you're tired of hearing it, doesn't make it less true....Did you see the word "Personally" in my post? That is my opinion. My opinion is that I think he's dead already, but I don't know that he is. Should everything be called off because I, an absolute nobody as far as Congress or the military are concerned, am of the opinion that he died already? I didn't admit or claim anything, I posted a fact (Al Qaeda is our target) and followed with an opinion (I think bin Laden is dead).
You are aware that Pakistan and Afghanistan share a fairly large border, right? And you're aware that Parachinar not far from that border, right?
Last I checked none of those countries flew our own planes into our own buildings. Maybe I missed it?
That explains why there are never any news reports about civilian deaths in Iraq or Afghanistan.
It's also safe for you to assume that I prefer sources that bother to differentiate between deaths caused by US troops and those caused by the hundreds of bombs set off on roads and in markets by suicide bombers and cowards up front instead of making you dig to find out how many deaths were caused by what.
You're completely missing what I am saying. The people we are after blend in completely with the civilians around them. There is no outward sign to differentiate between them until it is too late. You can't just take out someone when you don't know exactly what they look like and exactly where they are going to be at any given time.
Last I checked bin Laden doesn't have a direct satellite feed into all the news stations. Perhaps he didn't think of making a tape at first. Perhaps he couldn't find anyone to air it when he did think of it. Perhaps he didn't have the equipment to make the tape and had to wait for someone to get it for him.
Do you have proof that they weren't? Do you have proof that someone else was? Not theories, not opinions, proof.