The Witches' Bible

Originally posted by DaddyBare
RetinoidReceptor is partly right... Gardner was the first to use the word Wicca in his 1947 published book.. however he learned it from someone else...
June 1938, he joined the
newly opened Rosicrucian Theatre at Christchurch where it is
said he met Old Dorothy Clutterbuck.

Gerald Gardner claims he was initiated by Old
Dorothy into a practising coven of the Old Religion, that met
in the New Forest area of Britain.

In his own words, ""I realised that I had stumbled upon something interesting;
but I was half-initiated before the word, "Wica" which they
used hit me like a thunderbolt, and I knew where I was, and
that the Old Religion still existed. And so I found myself in
the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which
bound me not to reveal certain things."
This quote is taken
from The Meaning of Witchcraft, which was published in 1959.

So RetinoidReceptor is partly right in that Gardner is credited with the word. but to say he invented Wicca is like saying Newton invented gravity... is was there long before he came along and is still there long after he turned to dust

Funny how you pick things up from your wife who also happens to be an archivist and academic for the local college

[edit on 16-7-2009 by DaddyBare]

Gardner may have claimed that. But all evidence points to this NOT being the truth. Here are some other things he did not mention at the time.

He was very good friends with Ross Nichols. Ross turned an old Druidic Fraternal Order (think Masons who like stone Circles despite historical accuracy) into something else, It was the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids, today it is the largest Neopagan/Mesopagan Druid Order in the World. The OBOD. Anyway, Gardner and Nichols were avid Naturalists. Yeah Nudists. They talked ideas over, and the names for the various “high days” are a bastardized mix of Irish (Lughnasa, Samhain, Beltane, Imbolc), Welsh, and Anglo Saxon. Gardner was also talking with the Great Beast himself. Alester Crowley. Crowley wanted Gardner to take over the OTO, and continue it on when he died. Much of the early Ritual and Magical workings of Wicca owe more to Crowely (Great Uncle Al) than Gardner (Uncle Gerry). Indeed today many of the ritual tools are similar to that of the OTO.

Wicca was invented by Gerald Gardner. Old Dorothy Clutterbuck and the New Forrest Coven” are a nice story.

reply to post by Noinden


You seem to be well informed and a bit angry to boot. There is room for every perspective whether an expert on history or not. I appreciate your information and contribution to this thread. The conspiracy against pagan origins is many-armed, indeed.

The confusion itself is a cloud of fear in the hearts of the seekers. It is not easy to unlearn and then relearn...finding out our basis for faith could be flawed is not an easy thing to face. Some people don't take the easy way, they take the right way which is often the hardest, most painful way.

Witchcraft is in the heart of the practitioner. Where it comes from is just as clouded in mystery as any other. But it does seem to be historically, one of the oldest.

reply to post by Noinden


You said: "Gardner may have claimed that. But all evidence points to this NOT being the truth. Here are some other things he did not mention at the time. "

Could you please give the source for the evidence? I'd like to read it myself.

I find the whole pagan vs. pagan situation equally fascinating and reminiscent of Christianity. Do the conspiracies never end?

Originally posted by Hazelnut
reply to post by Noinden

 

You said: "Gardner may have claimed that. But all evidence points to this NOT being the truth. Here are some other things he did not mention at the time. "

Could you please give the source for the evidence? I'd like to read it myself.

I find the whole pagan vs. pagan situation equally fascinating and reminiscent of Christianity. Do the conspiracies never end?

I have been a Neopagan for 25 of my 37 years. The first 10 were wank, I did not apply myself. Then when I did, I began to seek knowledge.

So no I am not angry. But I have no patience for poor, or debunked scholarship. This is my attitude. I also have no patience for attacks on other faiths or by other faiths. Wicca and Neopagans are as bad against the “dread Xtian” (Christian, but for some reason young Neopagans just HAVE to use a term they think is a sly insult ) as evangelicals are against their perceived threats.

So proof?

Start with Triumph of the Moon by Ronald Hutton. He clearly shows the history of Brittish Witchcraft. Wicca started in the UK, thus it is the place to start. Move from this to say Bonewits Essential Guide to Witchcraft (it’s an easier read, Isaac tends to be more fun to read, but Hutton is the King of getting facts across).

Nichols and Gardner (www.controverscial.com...)

Gardner and Crowley (en.wikipedia.org...) . I believe Great Uncle Al who was a compulsive journal writer of his life (narcissist much?) recorded the details?


The worst offenders in Neopaganism I have found are the Eclectics who get upset when people practice specific culture exclusively, they insist they want to add a Hawaiian god to Asatruar Blot, or that you MUST call a circle, even if it’s not your way. They start the fights

Originally posted by Hazelnut
reply to post by Noinden

 

You seem to be well informed and a bit angry to boot. There is room for every perspective whether an expert on history or not. I appreciate your information and contribution to this thread. The conspiracy against pagan origins is many-armed, indeed.

The confusion itself is a cloud of fear in the hearts of the seekers. It is not easy to unlearn and then relearn...finding out our basis for faith could be flawed is not an easy thing to face. Some people don't take the easy way, they take the right way which is often the hardest, most painful way.

Witchcraft is in the heart of the practitioner. Where it comes from is just as clouded in mystery as any other. But it does seem to be historically, one of the oldest.

Could you please show me the proof “witch craft” is one of the eldest? Just curious. Please do not quote Marija Gimbutas because she is not considered an unbiased source these days.

Again don’t get me wrong. Every one is allowed their own UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) in their faith. Be that “There is only one God, and his son was Jesus” or be that “Before the nasty Kurgans came along women ruled and all was peace”. That is part of the human condition.

Also please point to the “many armed conspiracy” agaisnt pagan origins (whatever that means). Because to be honest, and I have been acting as a “warrior” in Paganism for 10 to 15 years, I’ve not really seen it. Sure the Media likes a nice juicy bit of scandal, Satanists and other left hand path practioners use the invered pentacle, and that makes it hard to tell the difference if you are a smuck on the street. But It’s not as bad as some say.

I have to add this in. Not all pagans follow the rede of “do as tho wilt, and it harm none”. Some have added another line (“If it cause harm do as you must”). Some of us (raises hand) live by older rules than the Wiccan rede. I personally follow the Old Irish rules.

reply to post by Noinden


Thanks for providing some references.

If you read my signature, you'll see that I'm a great fan of cro-magnon and neanderthal man during ice-age Europe's last big freeze. Some of the information I've picked up comes from the Author in my signature. Every one of her books includes extensive research with experts in those corresponding fields covered in her books.

It seems that earliest man found spiritual surcease by observing and interacting with nature. It also appears that cave paintings and various artworks display their spirituality. They also seem to have understood and recognized the feminine, fertile energy present in the world around them which they understood to be immanent. I find that fascinating and compelling.

Originally posted by Hazelnut
reply to post by Noinden

 

Thanks for providing some references.

If you read my signature, you'll see that I'm a great fan of cro-magnon and neanderthal man during ice-age Europe's last big freeze. Some of the information I've picked up comes from the Author in my signature. Every one of her books includes extensive research with experts in those corresponding fields covered in her books.

It seems that earliest man found spiritual surcease by observing and interacting with nature. It also appears that cave paintings and various artworks display their spirituality. They also seem to have understood and recognized the feminine, fertile energy present in the world around them which they understood to be immanent. I find that fascinating and compelling.

Sure but it bears no resemblance to wicca, trad witchcraft or anything else these days

reply to post by Noinden


Does it have to? I'm not the poster that mentioned Gardner by the way. I read the history talked about by you and the one you quoted and have my own doubts. But that is only part of the issue isn't it? The ability to exercise free-will in spirituality is bound to cause some uproar from somewhere. The real question is, why? Why do we constantly need to correct the belief systems of others? IMHO, that emotion/action causes wars, hatred, inability to cohabitate and negative energy to skyrocket.

reply to post by Hazelnut


This is the most popular post on ATS right now? What a shame. Can we see a book about the Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Obama, Bush, Henry Kissinger, 9/11, something more relevant to life today rather than witches that never really existed?

Women were labeled as witches without being witches and burnt on the stake, so what's there to study about it? It all goes back to Salem and the Spanish Inquisition. Yeah, burn those who speak against the leaders' views. Today, they don't burn, they just imprison, torture and maybe keep the prisoner alive.

Do you want to be a witch?

reply to post by MightyAl


I don't think its a shame at all. If you want to discuss those other subjects you should post a thread. If you post it they will come, right?

Its not all that bad is it? Maybe you'll find inspiration if you read everyone's comments.

reply to post by soficrow


Actually, recent studies show that countries where the Inquisition was active had a lower rate of witchcraft accusations, trials, convictions and executions than countries where it was not active. I've done a lot of research on witchcraft and magic use in the medieval and Renaissance periods and taught a number of classes on these topics at Pennsic and various other SCA university events. The areas in Europe that had the highest number of executions for witchcraft were boarder areas between territories with different majority religions, Germany and Switzerland in particular.

As a witch it was fascinating for me to do the research and I have an excellent library, currently in storage unfortunately, on magic and witchcraft, primarily in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. The most interesting thing is that everybody used magic - from chants invoking Thor to cure sick cattle to putting a communion host in the straw that your roof was made of to keep it from burning, during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, what we would call magic was used daily.

Sinthia,

You find magic in your God, and we find magic everywhere.

♥The only magic that we use, has been placed upon this earth for us. The same as anything that has been placed here for you.

♥We use NOTHING from the christian bible, and nothing is related to it. Satanism is a mockery and in opposition of anything christian.

♥Our beliefs are far older than anything christian, and come from all of nature, rocks, plants, animals, crystals, including the 5 points of all nature, earth,air fire,water and of course, man himself, this is where the pentacle come into play.

♥There is NO bringing back dead, putting HEX spells, asking for money...these are not magic as far as we are concerned.

♥We do not conjure spirits of evil entities or dead people, we use only nature and the "energies" from nature, just like a magnet has magic,(energy), this is what our "magic" is.

Blessed be

reply to post by Noinden


Which is why there are so many soloists!

I was a member of a "coven" for awhile, but I have to say, there were too many personal things being brought into it, and decided to go it alone many years ago

And why do you think the Beatles adored Uncle AL? lol

reply to post by LibertyLover


Thats fabulous, Id love to see your library!

And I must mention, there are still things today that are in effect, have you ever seen anyone say "KNOCK ON WOOD."

Hahah, all these sayings, are little "spells."

Originally posted by MightyAl
reply to post by Hazelnut

 

This is the most popular post on ATS right now? What a shame. Can we see a book about the Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Obama, Bush, Henry Kissinger, 9/11, something more relevant to life today rather than witches that never really existed?

Women were labeled as witches without being witches and burnt on the stake, so what's there to study about it? It all goes back to Salem and the Spanish Inquisition. Yeah, burn those who speak against the leaders' views. Today, they don't burn, they just imprison, torture and maybe keep the prisoner alive.

Do you want to be a witch?

I am proud to be a "witch". We didnt label it, btw.

And Im sorry you don't find this thread interesting, but all it took was a click to get here, there are plenty of gloom and doom threads to be read on ATS, just a small click away

reply to post by Hazelnut


What a refreshing thread! Something different and something interesting. I know quite a bit about witches, wiccans and the works of other wizards or whatever you want to call the latter. It is a very interesting subject. Again a nice thread, that is something different to ATS.

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by Hazelnut

 

What a refreshing thread! Something different and something interesting. I know quite a bit about witches, wiccans and the works of other wizards or whatever you want to call the latter. It is a very interesting subject. Again a nice thread, that is something different to ATS.

Hi Myth, good to see you
You really are a man of the world!
I agree, it's good to see something besides politics for once..lol

reply to post by Yummy Freelunch


Yes nice being away from politics and balloons..lol.. I really haven't seen a thread in a while about Witches/Wiccas/Wizards and the others. Pretty cool thread though, it seems to be civil thus far. I haven't read any books on this subject in a while, so now I will have to go and get these books listed through the thread and read up on them..lol.. or get my girlfriend to read them too me..

[edit on Jul 16th 2009 by TheMythLives]

Originally posted by Hazelnut
reply to post by Noinden

 

Does it have to? I'm not the poster that mentioned Gardner by the way. I read the history talked about by you and the one you quoted and have my own doubts. But that is only part of the issue isn't it? The ability to exercise free-will in spirituality is bound to cause some uproar from somewhere. The real question is, why? Why do we constantly need to correct the belief systems of others? IMHO, that emotion/action causes wars, hatred, inability to cohabitate and negative energy to skyrocket.

It does if one is making claims to authenticity via age. That is what Gardner and Sanders both did, and several others. I still see it today. Talk of a mythical "age of witches" and unbroken lines. Meh

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by Hazelnut

 

What a refreshing thread! Something different and something interesting. I know quite a bit about witches, wiccans and the works of other wizards or whatever you want to call the latter. It is a very interesting subject. Again a nice thread, that is something different to ATS.

Hi TheMythLives, I'm glad you found something different and interesting here on ATS. I'm curious to get a glimpse of your take on the Witches' Bible and related subject matter. If I'm right about you, that will be interesting.