The Question of Patriotism

A respondent to one of my threads once observed, “Most Americans no longer understand what concepts like ‘duty’ and ‘honor’ are.” That observation stuck with me as I read threads authored by others on; in general, topics like the character of the American military, the patriotism of those who question the government and other such baited subjects. It struck me like a lightning bolt that he was right, outside of the few ex-military who have actually had to back their oath or took it seriously, and those not totally indoctrinated by the current outcome based education system’s revisionist history and pro-socialist propaganda (that happened to pick up and read non-approved and black listed history books), there are very few that understand these concepts, or did not have revised and perverted concepts of them due to the afore mentioned statist (liberal/progressive) reeducation camps alleged to be public schools.

Noticing the casual, almost flamboyant application and use of such terms, I wondered how Americans at this point in our collective history understood and applied the term: ‘patriotism’. Seemingly, some have equated the term with the “lunatic right wing fringe”, or have excepted the watered down politically correct version of ‘civic mindedness’, as the continuing attack of the ‘enlightened’ has made such concepts as ‘patriotism’ dangerously out of touch with the new global consciousness. Indeed, those who hold such ideals are loosely defined now as domestic terrorist.

As for me, I hold to the more classical definition of “love and devotion to ones nation”, devotion so strong; a belief in what one’s nation stands for (or ‘once stood for’, in my case), that one is willing to defend it with his life; that there is no excess, no sacrifice too great in its defense. This is the definition of patriotism held by men like George Washington, Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson; this is what they expected of us.

Discourse On Patriotism

What are your ideas on this? Do you agree with the more classical definition, or the revised politically correct one?

[edit on 7/14/2009 by SGTChas]

reply to post by SGTChas

Most Americans no longer understand what concepts like ‘duty’ and ‘honor’ are.

Starting from the pres. on down Isn't he know commander in chief Isn't the USMC motto death before dishonor?Isn't lying dishonorable?This guy wouldn't know the truth if he sat on it in his underwear!What is honorable or patriotic about constantly apologizing for your country like you are ashamed?
We need someone who is honorable at the top to lead by example like barry said he would,but alas it was just another lie.

reply to post by genius/idoit


While not an expert on Marines - other than having seen what good bell hops they make on war ships (Chris is going to like that one!) - I do know their motto is "Always Faithful". Another concept lost today it seems... But you make good points...

Marines also clean up beaches really well - so the big dogs can get the heavy work done - ya just got to love um!

[edit on 7/14/2009 by SGTChas]

Ah I think I recognize my handy work here. Now for starters I am not ex-military but I was raised that way. Plus I was fascinated with the concept of chivilary and knighthood. Lots of reading does that to you. It was on a thread about US service people and their oaths of service in a civil unrest scenario if I recall. Vows, oaths, contracts, and promises seem to be made lightly. Marriage is a vow and how many divorces do we see? It has become accepted. Bill Clinton set the bar on it for the public I think. It has nothing to due with what he did with what woman, but he lied under oath. Time was people would rather die than violate there honour.

reply to post by hangedman13


Ah, yes you and one other... So what are your thoughts on patriotism - other than your obvious grasp of concepts so many others have no idea of? By the way, you are more of a soldier than you might think - 'heart' is 75 % of a good soldier's character.

What do I define as patriotism? Trying to live by the ideals as our founding fathers set forth. Never mind the conspiracies about what they meant the pure ideals set forth. Acknowledging and respecting what has come before. Being that balance of vigilance and humbleness. Knowing we are not perfect and still trying to live up to the dream. Setting a good example for future generations. I kinda have a hard time truly explaining it.

reply to post by SGTChas

.

Blind devotion to country does not equate to patriotism.

Following orders to engage in illegal wars, following orders to disarm the public, following orders to barricade cities, etc.. are not patriotic as they are not constitutional and not in accordance with natural law.

Even the constitution itself can be changed to be "unpatriotic". The founding fathers gave us the defining principles upon which the country was founded in the preamble itself.

The rights of man are endowed by our creator and are not granted to us by government. They are inherent to man simply by his existence. Government has no right to deprive anyone of life, liberty, or happiness without due process and just cause.

Freedom is the ability to do anything you wish as long as those actions do not interfere with the civil rights of another. - that was Jefferson's vision of freedom. Its also the guiding principle our constitution was based on.

Thus any constitutional amendments that violate this principle (prohibition for example) are not patriotic and are not in accordance with the rights of man. Any laws that violate this principle are also illegal, no matter what the legislature, courts, or police may say.

Patriotism is questioning the actions of government daily to ensure its actions are constitutional and in accordance with the rights of man (natural law). - and being willing to fight for those principles as our forefathers did. That's true patriotism.





< former gulf war military veteran



[edit on 15-7-2009 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


Amen and Amen - excellent response troop, Honor and Courage.

reply to post by SGTChas


Patriotism? Love of ones country, one who respects the principals set by the founding fathers.

The issue today isnt the fact there is any "resistance" or "disrespect" toward patriotism. The issue is the fact that folks get patriotism mixed with nationalism, patriotism mixed with their own political ideological agenda.

The patriot doesnt support its government regardless of what they do, the true patriot doesnt have to agree with the views of the Bush administration or that of the Obama administration or any other previously. The patriot doesnt necessarily have to commit to a war waged on by an administration.

The patriot does not have to agree with the conservative fringe or the left or the moderates, the patriot believes in the constitution and his freedom of views, of opinion, of his right to promote and practice his own belief. The patriot respects the rights of others to practice their belief.

The patriot doesnt believe in overthrowing its own democratically elected government over disagreement, the patriot knows the laws set forth by the founding fathers, the constitution, believes in the democratic will of the people and knows the bounds of the constitution.

The true patriot is not a conservative, liberal, independent, black, white hispanic, somebody who lives in cottonfield Alabama or somebody who dumps the constitution down everybodies throat whenever preaching his personal belief. The patriot loves his country and respects the the will of the founding fathers, stated clearly in the constitution.

SG




[edit on 15-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]

I love my country, because like my family, I was born into it. I may not like a lot of things about America, but I'm still an American and share some kind of connection and similarities with every other American. A nation you could say is a "macro-family" of people; and it makes sense to put what directly affects you first.

However, patriotism becomes a bad thing when you carelessly mistreat other people's "macro-families" and start wars and enslave other nations' people for you and your own macro-families' benefit. Currently, America is a really bad offender in that area.

The government can be likened to a domineering patriarch or matriarch who only cares about themselves and manipulates the family. I think almost all governments end up oppressing the people they are supposed to represent, and for that reason there shouldn't even be a government to represent an entire nation, unless it is a very small nation such as a tribe or clan. Governing should always be done on the local level, and with absolute transparency.

Originally posted by SGTChas
reply to post by genius/idoit

 

While not an expert on Marines - other than having seen what good bell hops they make on war ships (Chris is going to like that one!) - I do know their motto is "Always Faithful". Another concept lost today it seems... But you make good points...

Marines also clean up beaches really well - so the big dogs can get the heavy work done - ya just got to love um!

[edit on 7/14/2009 by SGTChas]

That does it "Ole Chainsaw"... I'm gonna make you PAY for that, Dogface!

Love ya Sarge!

Don't really have anything to add at this point, you've pretty much covered the issue.

Semper Fi!

[edit on 16/7/09 by cbianchi513]

It seems that every discussion about patriotism I've ever heard, soon confuses patriotism with nationalism.

Is there a difference between the two terms? I know that nationalism often carries negative connotations with it, such as excessiveness. And it is often equated with nazism. But is that fair?

Patriotism is like art - I know it when I see it. And when I see someone desecrating the flag, for instance, and calling it 'the highest form of patriotism', I strongly disagree.

reply to post by mnemeth1


You have 'country' and 'government' intermingled; you indeed can be ‘blindly’ devoted to your country and people while still refusing to follow a corrupt and evil government – especially when your speaking about a nation such as ours when the government is trashing the very documents that give it its legitimacy – as our government is doing.

reply to post by jsobecky


The main difference being that a Patriot can admit evils that our committed by the government of the nation that holds his devotion, where a nationalist can ‘see no evil’ in his nation or leaders.

reply to post by cbianchi513


You young man are a fine example of a ‘mud pig’; ‘bullet stopper’ extraordinaire and DEFINITELY misguided… However, I shall ascertain what needed corrective education you need administered. Do not worry, I do believe you’ll clean up nicely – IF you survive…

Sarge, in reading your thread, I happened upon a passage in the link that you provided that really resonated with me.

At its core, patriotism means love of one's home place, and of the familiar things and scenes associated with the home place. In this sense, patriotism is one of the basic human sentiments.

If not a natural tendency in the species, it is at least a proclivity produced by realities basic to human life, for territoriality, along with family, has always been a primary associative bond.

We become devoted to the people, places and ways that nurture us, and what is familiar and nurturing seems also natural and right. This is the root of patriotism.

www.iscv.org...



Growing up down South, I can say without hesitation that from my earliest memories, there was a strong connection with the people and the locale.

My family instilled within me a basis of judgment in regards to people, that transcended the labels of ethnicity or religious background etc. instead for a emphasis based upon the tenants of individual character and recognition of one's deeds.

Even when acknowledging the good and bad of collective humanity, I can say without doubt that the camaraderie that I have personally been privy to, beginning as a youngster, has provided a superb template to successfully apply elsewhere in my life.

In my first lessons in hunting wild game & fishing, I was taught to be a steward of the land, never taking more than what was needed and humbly giving thanks for the gift of the bounty procured.

I was taught the supreme importance of firmly standing up for what was right, even if it meant being ALONE in my doing so.

I was urged to be thankful for the gift of being so fortunate to have been born in a country that offered the potential to realize individual dreams/aspirations through the implementation of hard work and dogged determination.

There has undeniably been a mass deviation (especially recently) from the implied basic tenants of our founding fathers. With a fresh emphasis now being placed upon some preposterous supposition of a pre-ordained right to unearned possessions that have no basis in ones individually exerted effort.

I personally see this particular "movement" as a bastardization of the original intent of our forefathers system of governance and the way in which they framed it to grow, to say in the least.

Even in this widely recognized time of upheaval and discord, I believe that there exists within this nation a seed of patriotic light that has been charged with the arduous task of dashing asunder the lecherous minions of darkness which seek to drag us down into indentured servitude.

Sarge, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your tireless efforts in spreading the word of our collective responsibility in the maintenance of true, pure, liberty.

I shall end by offering you ALL a quote from one of my brother Mississippians....



"I decline to accept the end of men... I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance."~~~ William Faulkner

This is an excellent thought provoking post.

Sgt always is great at coming up with thought provoking interesting posts.

At it's literal core, Patriotism would depend upon which country you swear your allegiance. It's assumed posts from Americans are dependent on the US. Constitution, the Bill Of Rights...

I'd pose the question, also, what is Patriotism to say, a Pakistani or perhaps an Iranian. They don't possess the documents created by the, unquestionable, masters of genius that we posses here in the United States.

Those documents of the United States dictate what our Patriotism should be... If we hold those documents in their proper reverence, Patriotism in every American would be honoring the laws put forth. Which at their core are fairly simplistic and seem basic to those born under them or those that have spent some time living under them.

They truly define, what I believe, are the most human qualities that bind the greatest society ever established.

The documents aren't bound to monetary policy, so if and when the economy fails as many believe it will, the documents will survive; their spirit will survive; and the people that believe in their value to humanity will see to it that Patriotism to those documents will survive no matter what SHTF.

They don't define financial firms will survive. They don't state that government controlled transportation megacorps (car companies) will survive. Nor do they provide for gov't sponsored health care.

There certainly is absolutely [color=#00BFFF]NO Fear nor even much apprehension about what the future holds for America. Come what may...

Patriots in America don't carry that at all. Only concern of family and friends and neighbors well being.

Remember always, that there is a contingency that states;

It is the responsibility of the people (not the president and congress) to change that government into something acceptable to the majority of the people.

It doesn't state that the government is allowed to change itself without the consent of the people.

Patriotism is adhering to the foundation of the principles that define and create the government.

Honduras is a prime example of Patriotism. If you don't like that... Deal with it.

[color=#00BFFF]What does Honduras say about our country?

Grab some tea ... and consider... also, the teapot...

Enjoy


[edit on 7·18·09 by DrMattMaddix]

[edit on 7·18·09 by DrMattMaddix]

Originally posted by genius/idoit
reply to post by SGTChas

 

Most Americans no longer understand what concepts like ‘duty’ and ‘honor’ are.

Starting from the pres. on down Isn't he know commander in chief Isn't the USMC motto death before dishonor?Isn't lying dishonorable?This guy wouldn't know the truth if he sat on it in his underwear!What is honorable or patriotic about constantly apologizing for your country like you are ashamed?
We need someone who is honorable at the top to lead by example like barry said he would,but alas it was just another lie.

Better then the last guy by far.

Leaps and bounds, 4 more years.

Who would you put in office? Palin? Rush Limbaugh? It's laughable. Your side has nearly destroyed this country, hush and let us try and save you.

I see patriotism as having a pride in one's country, for what it has done (for the world in general), what it does and what it can do in the future.

Ok, so the US has kicked a$$ in Europe to end WWII, so did England, so did Canada.

But, what have you done lately? How do you treat others and your own fellow citizen? How do you 'take care of your own'? What will you do in the future? How do you 'help' other countries in crisis? blow them up or send them aid?

I have tried the singles sites thing, talked to tonssss of guys, even Americans. The one thing that some assume is 'ooo she wants a green card' lol. Ya ok, well, I had one once, I came back home, no thanks. Why would anyone think living there is better than here (Canada)? Surely they have another thing coming if they think we all stand at the border drooling and aching to be allowed in to become 1. broke, 2. uninsured, (see health care threads) 3. devalued or 4. lied to by a fraudulent government. It is pretty hard living in Mexico, has been since their corrupt officials keep the poor even poorer. To many of them, the land of opportunity is just as unfruitful and likely more hardship than what they imagined. Yet, it must be pretty horrific and considered a s'tep up' if they risk their entire being to cross that line into the world of cheap slave labour in the plantations of the south and looking over their shoulder.

I'd say being on the verge of (a government) treating your citizens as third class--even worse, third world is nothing to be prideful about. There is a fine line between adoration for your country as it 'used to be/should be' and what (the country) it represents to the outside world as a whole.

The damaging, shameful occurances of Canada? The peacekeeper troops indecencies in Somalia www.videosift.com... the evils of Dr. Cameron (althought he was not Canadian), the native residential schools (catholic church), and the internment of the Japanese. We admit our shame and do not try to sweep it under the carpet. I can't say any lone citizen caused damage to our reputation either. *ok ok, maybe Celine Dion, eeessh LOLOL

Otherwise, we are a pillar to other many other global communities. I hope it stays that way. We cannot fathom being hated leaving our homegrounds, it tells you a lot about a group when they are disliked or mocked in other countries.

So, before you consider yourself a patriot, consider and know all of your history and do not stand on the coattails of past heros or past heroic events to carry you into this new millenium. Make new heros, new heroic events with a clearer understanding that although you judge yourself as the 'greatest country in the world'...it just might be that YOU are the only people that believe that is actually true.

[edit on 18-7-2009 by suzque66]

[edit on 18-7-2009 by suzque66]

[edit on 18-7-2009 by suzque66]

Originally posted by BaronVonGodzilla

Better then the last guy by far. (Bush over Obama)

Leaps and bounds, 4 more years.

Who would you put in office? Palin? Rush Limbaugh? It's laughable. Your side has nearly destroyed this country, hush and let us try and save you.

OMG. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

I voted for McCain, not because I liked him but because I was less embarrassed by him (and the oozing, gushing, revolting media.) Something didn't sit right with me about Obama. I won't kneel to him as many do. bah!

Even that choice was wrong.

Solution: Gov't and the electrical college needs to be shaken up severely.

Starting with HR 1207... We can take it from there, but that must happen first.

Then! we can seriously talk about candidates ... but don't get into bashing.

Silly little bashers.