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"Evidence" from the birth certificate conspiracy, my analysis

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posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Cypher-X

When Politicians who are not exactly private citizens, have to disclose there income tax, what can we expect from you and your Pied Piper Obama then? Will you be saying "Prove he didn't file his taxes" when he has them sealed?

[edit on 22-7-2009 by Cypher-X]


I am not sure if you are a bit slow or just trying your hand at regular BS like other birthers?

Politicians do not automatically "have to disclose" their taxes.
The presidential candidates often do it voluntarily.

Obama has not "sealed" his tax records??? What are you talking about?
Link please or I call more BS from you..your like a fountain. I am still trying to get through just one of your posts.

Obama released his returns along with several of the presidential candidates. It was done voluntarily. What do you mean he has them "sealed"??


[edit on 22-7-2009 by maybereal11]




posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by Cypher-X

For what? showing how someone can still follow a guy I see you have defended all along citing many of the campaign promises arguing your house of cards using the same un-reliable sources Obama has a personal history in as a fiduciary agent.



Gibber jabber...jibber jabber... "fiduciary agent" what??

If you are talking about Fact Check or Annenberg...evidently you have looked into it so thoroughly that don't know who Annnenberg or Fact-Check is?

I addressed this issue...in a post just a few above this on the previous page...it's BS like apparently most everything you post...high concentration, fertilizer grade BS. Still working my way through just one of your posts.

[edit on 22-7-2009 by maybereal11]

[edit on 22-7-2009 by maybereal11]



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by Cypher-X
You have consistently mis represented the Hawaii DOH Fukina suggesting the statement proves he US born when the added disclaimer saying it would not be handled any differen't than any other hawaiian BC suggesting his was not? You have equivocated the DOH's statments to substantiate the COLB's authenticity , then to substantiate the vaulted BC which ever is called for in the argument.



Okay...I am not having fun anymore since the further I read in this one post it looks like there is no logical consistency to your BS and you might not have the tightest grip on the real world.

Let me just take a brief shot at whatever you were trying to communicate here. A Certificate of Live Birth is required by law to have identical information to the records contained within the office of vital statistics...

actually I have posted this and other evidence dozens of times...lets be honest, you don't care about the truth..you are lost and full of hateful energy ...I hope you find your way and peace some day.



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by Cypher-X

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Why hasnt anybody provided that evidence of him being born off soil? If there is this great outrage of him being foreign born I'd figure I would have that evidence by now.

[edit on 15-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]


How about the evidence we are due when we asked him over a year and a half to prove his natutal born citizenship the same way he insisted McCain prove his.


Where did Obama "insist" McCain prove his citizenship?

Provide a link or eat the BS you spout. ATS is about denying ignorance ...not propagating BS.

BTW - He provided proof of citizenship...more so than any president in history...it's not his problem if some fringe right wingers are so blinded by hate, racism, ideology whatever...that they can't understand plain facts.


You should do a little research about the place that verified his birth certificate.

Hate? Racism? It's funny. The only people mentioning "hate" and "racism" are the pro-Obama group. When has anyone on this thread ever said they hated Obama? When has anyone said a racist remark? Millions of Americans would just like to know whether Obama is allowed to run the country; "race" and "hate" have nothing to do with it. So because some people want to know whether Obama is qualified to run our country it's hate and racism?



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Totakeke

You should do a little research about the place that verified his birth certificate.


I have..over the past year...while you apparently have no idea of what you are talking about.

By the way I responded to this idiotic comment from you on the last page...Are you not reading this thread? Doing any research? Are you drunk?

Here let me paste it agiain for you along with my response from the page prior to this one since you appear to be having some difficulty keeping up with your own BS...


Originally posted by Totakeke
Also, the people that supposedly checked the legitimacy of Obama's birth certificate (the short form, not the long form) are pro-Obama.


You need to research for yourself once in a while. You are reffering to how the Annenberg Foundation supports Fact Check...a non-partisan fact checking site that has railed into both democrats and republicans when they divert from the truth.

The Annenberg foundation also supported a foundation in Chicago aimed at bettering the school systems and President Obama was involved with that foundation.

The head of that foundation, Leonore Annenberg was a stuanch REPUBLICAN....BUT she also cared about truth and education and thus funded Fact Check and THe Annenberg Challenge among other noble ventures.

She is dead now, so she is easy pickings for propagandists looking to paint her as some left wing conspirator.
en.wikipedia.org...
The Annenbergs contributed to Ronald Reagan's 1980 presidential campaign and upon his inauguration, Leonore was named Chief of Protocol, placing her in charge of advising the president, vice president, and Secretary of State on matters relating to diplomatic protocol.

At the announcement of her death, statements were issued by former President George H. W. Bush and Barbara Bush, as well as former First Lady Nancy Reagan. Mrs. Reagan called Annenberg "a dear and longtime friend" and praised the Annenberg's philanthropic work as having "left an indelible print on education in the United States".

ASIDE from Fact Check the certificate he provided has been deemd be the courts accordingly with US Law as legitimate proof of Native Born Citizenship. In addition to the registrars signature and seal validating the document, the office of vital statistics has publically validated it to the press.

So when you say "the people that supposedly checked the legitimacy of Obama's birth certificate (the short form, not the long form) are pro-Obama."

Who are you refering to? Annenberg who was a stuanch republican and financed Reagans campaign and was appointed to office by him? The US Courts? The registrar in Hawaii? The Office of vital Statistics?

Or are you refering to someone elses post that you wanted to believe rather than research in hopes of discovering the truth?

Willful ignorance or willful dishonesty.







[edit on 22-7-2009 by maybereal11]



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by Cypher-X

When Politicians who are not exactly private citizens, have to disclose there income tax, what can we expect from you and your Pied Piper Obama then? Will you be saying "Prove he didn't file his taxes" when he has them sealed?

[edit on 22-7-2009 by Cypher-X]


I am not sure if you are a bit slow or just trying your hand at regular BS like other birthers?

Politicians do not automatically "have to disclose" their taxes.
The presidential candidates often do it voluntarily.

Obama has not "sealed" his tax records??? What are you talking about?
Link please or I call more BS from you..your like a fountain. I am still trying to get through just one of your posts.

Obama released his returns along with several of the presidential candidates. It was done voluntarily. What do you mean he has them "sealed"??


[edit on 22-7-2009 by maybereal11]


My God maybereal, are you forreal?

Looking at your past posts it doesn't surprise me you can't separate sarcasm from reality and that you have defended EVERYTHING that is Obama. I wouldn't be surprised if you had a life size poster of him from spencers gifts store in your bedroom and a shrine with an alter you can pray to the grand Obimbo

BS? sheesh getreal maybereal, anyone who says anything against your idol is spewing BS according to you, so I don't take a thing you say as serious in addition to the other Obama cult member SG who thinks we don't deserve answers. When I read that, I knew then who I was talking to and won't take his answers serious either.

There are fringers and their are fanatics, and BOTH of you are much too enamored with Obama to be objective much less use logically rationalized arguments. I used to defend Obama too, but it was because I didn't swear my life in complete and utter total devotion to him, I was able to see with both my eyes open that the man is full of that BS, you like call it.

The state of hawaii won't let you have squatters rights using that useless COLB, hell you get to fill in the date you say you were born. Just because YOU have a standard for screening Presidential candidates that amounts to something anyone can make on their computer in an age when ID theft is rampant and technology makes it easy to accomplish, doesn't mean we do. By the way, the annenberg foundation is also the same foundation that hired a domestic terrorist named Bill Ayers , so forgive me if I am not all that im pressed with the foundation that has sung Obama's praises and lies for him all the time and has been busted for having such a bias.

I don't care what party they have been affiliated with or who they have sung praises for before they are anything BUT impartial when it comes to Obama. You might even consider working for them.

That is if you don't already lol


I got nothing against religion ya know but sorry,,, Obama is Not God, and on a scale from 1-10, 1 being the least likely possibility, he is a 1 when it comes to being a Natural Born Citizen

[edit on 22-7-2009 by Cypher-X]



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by Cypher-X
 


Less talk, more evidence Cypher. I dont think the judges are going to be concerned about your personal issues on the matter of the birth certificate.



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by Cypher-X
 


Less talk, more evidence Cypher. I dont think the judges are going to be concerned about your personal issues on the matter of the birth certificate.


Good thing you have no say in what Judges think then isn't souther guardian. Don't be talking to me about proof until you start respecting the rights of others who have asked for proof and all we have ever got is people like you talkin smack acting as if a damn COLB is proof of natural born status. My god dude, if you were to apply the same standards of proof for Obama as you do for us,, you'd, be,,,

well you'd be one of us



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by Cypher-X
thing you have no say in what Judges think then


Yes, good thing judges place their own decisions on the basis of evidence.


Don't be talking to me about proof until you start respecting the rights of others who have asked for proof


Rights of others? The short form is legally sufficient under court of law cypher, it may not be satisfactory to you and the rest of the birthers but it certainly is under the court of law, certainly has been for the rest of the 44. This isnt an argument over sufficient proof anymore, this is about the disatisfaction of some over that proof, and yet those individuals such as yourself still lack legit evidence to request more.

Obama, regardless of him being president, is protected by the constitution not to show anymore. The "rights" of those asking form more proof hover around whether they have the evidence to overturn that constitutional right.




Dont bluff yourself. You can sit here all day and argue those rights, that doesnt prove Obama was born off US soil, neither will it get you that long form.

SG


[edit on 22-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 07:07 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


Again, I ask you: why did you make this thread if it's clear that people aren't going to change their minds? Obviously you love Obama and obviously we right-wing nut-job tin foil hat-wearing crazies want some simple proof that Obama can serve. The president works for the people, not the other way around. As a man who's touting a transparent government he couldn't be more opaque.

[edit on 22-7-2009 by Totakeke]



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
The president works for the people, not the other way around. As a man who's touting a transparent government he couldn't be more opaque.



I'm not going to say Obama has a transparent presidency, because that would be foolish.

However, on the issue of his birth certificate, he has been more than compliant. What would you like him to do, release a long-form certificate that doesn't exist under Hawaii's medical records system?

Did you even read my earlier post, or did you just selectively glance over it?

There is no such thing as a long-form birth certificate in Hawaii. They were eliminated from the system years ago. The 'certification of live birth' is the only certified information that you can obtain in that state pertaining to the record of your birth.

Obama literally cannot release his long-form. He can't even see it for himself. Nobody in Hawaii can.

End of story.



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by drwizardphd
 


Then what kind of documents did he lock up?



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


Again, I ask you: why did you make this thread if it's clear that people aren't going to change their minds?


I made this thread to counter the garbage that is being spread to back up the conspiracy. In no way did I say I intended to "change the minds of birthers". I really dont know where you got that from.


Obviously you love Obama


It appears that anybody who disagrees with the birthers or the teabaggers "are sheeple in love with Obama". I think that attitude is rather childish and off topic.

I supported Obama because I agreed with his policies, had it been hillary I would have done the same. No dont think he going to change the world in a matter of 6 months, or even through his entire term, I do however expect him to implement more liberal policies. I disagree with him of his support on fisa, but thus far I agree with his policies. I dont agree with the misleading garbage being spread about him as is that of Bush or McCain before (however I disagree with them).


and obviously we right-wing nut-job tin foil hat-wearing crazies


Well prove to me those who believe in this conspiracy are not. Heres the facts behind this conspiracy.

Essentially your accusing the president of the United states of fraud simply because he practices his personal rights not to show you all of his documents.

-You base you assumption on the fact Obamas mother during the early sixties flew to kenya 8 months pregnant (ignoring the prices of flying that time) then she had Obama in Kenya only to fly back to then announce his birth on this news papers. You dont have any flight records. The logic around this assumption, or this suspicion is beyond understandable.

-you cite that anybody could have attained a birth certificate in Hawaii, however that law only came in place in 1982, two decades after Obamas birth.

-You say not enough of backround check was done on Obama, yet on other threads the government is credited with having backround checks on everybody over a supposed "NWO invasion". It doesnt make any sense. For all talk about the CIA having infiltrated entire countries, they cant do a simple checkup on Obama, right? But you with the power of google can assume the man hasnt been checked out thorough enough? Based on what?

-Whats more interesting, this conspiracy hasnt gathered anything more than personal suspicions and assumptions. I am yet to see constitutional and law evidence correctly referenced.

-Essentially the majority of the 44 presidents can not be accounted for showing anything more than a short form birth certificate.

-Apart from the fact you "just want to see his long form" the assumption here is that after having proven sufficient enough his eligibility you expect the man to now answer to afew evidently dissatisfied individuals until everybody is somehow "satisfied". You really can sit here and tell me this attitude and the rumors about this man within the fringe community will somehow change once he releases this long form?


some simple proof that Obama can serve.


And that simple proof came in a form of a short form birth certificate which was then veried by state. You cannot expect the president of the United states to satisfy every single individual in the United states. It simply will not happen and it hasnt happened. Your advocating the president stop everything to show his long form, for what? So that some sour grape may then go back to arguing that his a muslim? Or that his long for is not authenticated? Or that they now just need his other records? Please. Apart from him having his rights not to, that notion is stupid.

If it was "simple" this conspiracy would have died out the minute the state of Hawaii and health officials verified his short form.


The president works for the people


So this means the president must try to satisfy every individual in the country? He works for the people alright, and on November 4th 2008 the people voted him in democratically, satisfied with what he presented in his campaign. There may be some who didnt vote for him on personal or policy dissatisfaction, that doesnt mean he has to continue his 2008 election campaign to change their minds. His done with it and he won. Welcome to democracy.


As a man who's touting a transparent government more opaque.


So long as Obamas president, the fringe will always find issue. And Totakeke the only thing you've proven here is that among many other things, your not satisfied with what Obama has presented so far interms of his eligibility, nothing else but your personal dissatisfaction. big deal. You'll have another chance to vote come 2012.

SG



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by Totakeke

Then what kind of documents did he lock up?


He didn't lock up any, that's my point.

Read my post a few pages back.

If you don't care to, I'll summarize:

The entire rumor that he has spent 'hundreds of thousands' or even 'millions' of dollars locking up his records is based on a campaign contribution to his lawyer, that was made months before the majority of these cases even came to light.

Past presidents have made similarly sized payments to their lawyers, as running a campaign is an expensive legal process and a portion of every candidate's campaign donations go to their legal representatives. George Bush Jr had made a payment somewhere to the tune of $400,000 to his lawyer, but nobody made a fuss about that. That is simply because all presidents do this. (again, see my other post for the source).

There is absolutely zero evidence that he locked any records up, because he never did lock any records up. He never applied for aide as a foreign exchange student, and he can't release his long-form because that doesn't exist in Hawaii. All of the speculation surrounding this conspiracy is just that...speculation. Unlike many of the other fine conspiracies out there, in which the theorists scrounge up evidence and data to support their claims, those who hold onto this theory seem content with just asking "why won't he show his long-form?", when in reality such a certificate doesn't exist.

That is why this conspiracy has lost its ground, and why it is impossible for me (someone who would normally be extremely interested in something like this) to take it seriously.

I originally believed Obama had something to hide. I searched and searched with the goal of proving myself right. I ultimately proved myself wrong. He was indeed born here in Hawaii. There is no question in my mind, and until someone presents credible evidence to the contrary, it will remain that way.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by drwizardphd
 


Then why doesn't he just explain to people that he can't get his birth certificate instead of being so tight-lipped about it?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 



Lie: If he would just show his long form birth certificate this conspiracy would end completely.

Truth: The individuals behind this conspiracy tend to hold multiple other conspiracies about Obama. With the evidence above being given over time which clearly shows how full of holes this conspiracy really was from the start the individuals still continued to demand, still continue to believe Obama was born off American soil with little more to show for it than hearsay. Why? Because most of these individuals will never be satisfied so long as Obama remains president. Neither is President Obama obligated to cater to every demand being made by the very same individuals who had theorized multiple other conspiracies and negative stories about his family. I would say the same about both Republican and Democratic presidents of the past. You cant expect to satisfy everybody.
There is one way for the administration to then find it necessary to release the birth certificate, that will most probably happen when those behind this birth certificate conspiracy actually come up with the solid proof they need to indicate Obama was born off American soil. Simple declaring his birth certificate as a fake by their own personal beliefs will not bring anything out under the court of law neither will it connect him to being born off American soil.


You answer a generalization with a generalization? I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that witnesses stating that they witnessed his birth in Kenya would satisfy evidential requirements. Unfortunately, we don't know, because there's never been an official investigation of the witnesses' statements, though there have been a lot of unofficial investigation of it.

Furthermore, while there will always be nutjobs that believe whatever they want to believe, I know that I would be satisfied if he would just release his long form birth certificate. I was just looking yesterday to see if the conspiracy was put to bed yet, because I remember it from before the election, but thought that it had lost traction, so I stopped following it last year. To my great surprise, it's continued into July 2009, and even Lou Dobbs, an Obama supporter, is raising questions about it.

If Obama would release his long form birth certificate to the public, it would satisfy all REASONABLE questioners, which is all that matters. You can never do anything about the nutjobs. Most "reasonable" people would be satisfied, and once the "reasonable" people leave the argument, it will cease to be relevant. All the delaying of releasing a long form birth certificate will do is create more questions.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by Cypher-X
The state of hawaii won't let you have squatters rights using that useless COLB, hell you get to fill in the date you say you were born.

[edit on 22-7-2009 by Cypher-X]


Between the gibberish and rage of your last post I managed to find one thing that you are attempting to claim in the above excerpt. So let me addres that and ignore the rest of your craziness.

The reason that you need a different certificate to obtain what you call "squatters rights" in Hawaii is to establish that you are a Native Hawaiin Indian and thus they need to see your ancestry (parental lineage) to establish that you are a "Native American" entitled to those benefits in Hawaii.

That has no application or purpose with regards to Obama unless you are claiming he is a Hawaiin Indian...at which point he would most definetly be a native born American.

The COLB that he provided has been authenticated and affirmed by every judge that has dismissed these frivolous lawsuits...and ALL of them have been dismissed when they are reviewed for trial.

You also are claiming that you can "fill in the date" on the COLB?

You lie. I'd say that you were confused, but everyone here, including myself has shown you multiple times that this is patently untrue...though you keep saying it.

You lie despite knowing the truth for the sake of propagating hate and anger...that is about all I need to know about you...you have dark, ugly things inside your heart and I hope you find some way toward peace soon.



[edit on 23-7-2009 by maybereal11]

[edit on 23-7-2009 by maybereal11]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by maybereal11


The COLB that he provided has been authenticated and affirmed by every judge that has dismissed these frivolous lawsuits...and ALL of them have been dismissed when they are reviewed for trial.



name the member whose authority is to confirm Obama's natural born status maybereal? Who was it ?



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by diskpanic
I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that witnesses stating that they witnessed his birth in Kenya would satisfy evidential requirements.


And who would this be? Are you refering to the audio tape of his "supposed step grandmother"? Iv discussed this matter time and time again. Firstly here you have a tape that is unauthenticated, unconfirmed, of Obamas third step grandmother. Thats your flaw right there, anybody can go on and make audio tape of somebody pretending to be somebody else. For all the talk of Obamas state verified short form birth certificate not being sufficient evidence of his birth you folks certainly seem to take in the audio tape as authentic, no questions asked.

Secondly, if you actually listen to the audio tape, the grandmother makes it clear she is reference to Obamas father, Barack Obama snr. When the radio host trys to lead this woman into saying "barack Obama, president", she corrects him by saying Barack Obama senior, the father.

Audio tape
www.youtube.com...

Heres a clue, Sarah continously refers to her son being born in Kenya.


Unfortunately, we don't know, because there's never been an official investigation of the witnesses' statements,


Well thats not going to help ya now is it?


Apart from the fact that this woman in the audio tape makes it clear she is refering to her "son", not her "grandson" (to which the radio hosts purposefully trys to lead her to saying) it isnt anybodies fault that the accusers cant come up with the solid evidence of her actually saying this. Even if Sarah had stated on TV that she was present at Obamas birth its not assured evidence because essentially its word from mouth. She may be a witness, but given the fact shes been estranged from Obama, give the fact both Obama and his father share the same name, it just would not hold up in court as sufficient enough.


Furthermore, while there will always be nutjobs that believe whatever they want to believe, I know that I would be satisfied if he would just release his long form birth certificate.


Among other things? This isnt just about the whackjobs sorry, this is about a list of conspiracies, not just one. Now this notion that he will change afew minds by releasing his long form but will not end the conspiracy, will not end the other garbage being spread about this man, it really shouldnt be hard to "get the drift". Conspiracy theories are inevitable, and so long as this man remains president, the fringe right will always have some issue with him regardless. Its pointless. You may "claim" it will satisfy you and afew others but thats not excuse enough.

To my great surprise, it's continued into July 2009, and even Lou Dobbs, an Obama supporter, is raising questions about it.

Right:
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

Lou dobbs is just another big dog making an attempt to keep the conspiracy alive. This entire thing here, the stunt with Cook (when he was free to refuse volunteering in anycase) the town hall infiltration, the birth certificate talk on fox news. Its just another smear campaign courtesy of a planned rightwing blogosphere campaign. Its not "lasting" so to say.


If Obama would release his long form birth certificate to the public, it would satisfy all REASONABLE questioners,


Do you think its reasonable for him to answer to the same birthers that hold hatred towards him regardless? That spoke negatively about him and his family, his roots?

Dont come to me with "reasonable" here. If you were "reasonable" you would have kept "shut" the day the state of Hawaii verified his short form birth certificate. Now do you know whats unreasonable? This assumption that Mrs Obama flew to Kenya 8 months pregnant (when plane tickets were evidently expensive those days) to then give birth to Obama and then fly back to announce his birth in the newspapers. Whats more, the notion that somehow he managed to attain a short form Hawaiian birth certificate prior to the 1982 law statute 338, when only those born on Hawaiian soil could have attained it, and in addition to that some how he managed to doop the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, the McCain and Clinton campaigns and the Bush administration in their backround checks.

"Reasonable" you say? Funny that.

SG



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by Cypher-X

Originally posted by maybereal11


The COLB that he provided has been authenticated and affirmed by every judge that has dismissed these frivolous lawsuits...and ALL of them have been dismissed when they are reviewed for trial.



name the member whose authority is to confirm Obama's natural born status maybereal? Who was it ?



Its strange how you never acknowledge the luandry list of BS claims I have called you on in this thread, but rather pretend you didn't read it and try new questions each time?

This will be my last response since you clearly care not for facts or truth.
I feel sorry for folks of your disposition. Willing to trade your self respect and dignity...desperately shoveling lies to convince folks of things you know are BS...for what? A political view? An ideology?

I have issue with many of Obama's policies. Better than Bush, but no Messiah...but this debate has to do with respecting truth and facts. respect for honesty.

To your question...

COBs (COLB) are honored by every court in the US as long as they have a seal and signature of a valid state registrar. Obama's indicates he was born on US soil...that is the first and most important thing any judge looks at and that is why every case has been dismissed. The law requires them to honor citizenship claims from each of the states and between states.

If anyone wanted to consider conspiracy and look further than the legally valid COB then they discover mounds of evidence supporting just what the COB says.

There has been no valid arguments or evidence to the contrary...just knee deep BS and rhetoric.

Read some facts for a change...this even has the name of the OB that delivered him...but you just keep on with your..."so many unanswered questions" bit...it's old and tired, like the right wing propaganda machine.

www.snopes.com...



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