Freemasonry is unChristian, page 16

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reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 04:08 PM by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Jubelum was found in a cave and was beheaded by the man searching for him. The man was rewarded for his "zeal" in carrying out a vigilante murder, even though in doing so he disobeyed his orders.

This is only partially true. In the Ninth Degree of the Scottish Rite, a stranger overhears Jubelum in a cave confessing aloud to himself the murder. They struggle, and Jubelum is slain and beheaded.

According to this webpage, Joabert tried to kill Jubelum in his sleep. Jubelum woke up, was stabbed in the heart and forehead, said the word "necum" (נָקְם which means "vengeance" in Hebrew, but could also be a pun for another word meaning "Israelite"), then dropped dead. There was no confession.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
The other two were found, brought before King Solomon and then summarily sentenced to death. And BTW, the three heads appear on the ribbon of the 10th degree in the Scottish Rite.

That also is correct, but the death sentence is given after the plea of guilty.

According to this website, the last two ruffians were located, "immediately" chained and then taken without a confession. This is all despite the fact that King Solomon ordered that they confess, which never happened.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Nobody said that they were Christian. My point is that Masonic teaching directly contradicts Christian teaching.

Solomon acted in accordance with Jewish law, which was the basis of Christainity.

That is a logical fallacy. Not all Jewish law has made it into Christian teaching. Maybe Freemasonry is more compatible with Judaism than Christianity?

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 04:12 PM by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
My friend, you don't have the slightest idea what the heck you are talking about. Not remotely.

Yes they pled guilty....and the rest is added fantasy on your part I imagine, or on the part of someone who has misinformed you.

If one really wants to know what goes on in the degrees, it's not like it has been hidden since the 1800's.......any scholar worth his salt let alone a mason could refute your statement.

Funny, because Masonic Light seems disagree.

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 04:13 PM by vcwxvwligen

reply to post by ForkandSpoon

Emotional fluff.

I can show you passages from the Bible that directly conflict with Masonic ritual.

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 07:09 PM by KSigMason

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Clearly your not a Mason so how do you know?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
They never pled guilty. They denied having killed Hiram Abiff, saying that they'd rather receive the penalties.

So when did you go through the degrees?

The rest of your post shows your lack of knowledge of the Masonic legend.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Every time you post you show more and more you lack of knowledge.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Post them.

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 11:37 PM by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by KSigMason
Clearly your not a Mason so how do you know?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
They never pled guilty. They denied having killed Hiram Abiff, saying that they'd rather receive the penalties.

So when did you go through the degrees?

The rest of your post shows your lack of knowledge of the Masonic legend.

Is the knowledge available to the public or to people who receive the degrees? Come now, it has to be one or the other!

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Every time you post you show more and more you lack of knowledge.

Actually, I think that you just in denial.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Post them.

Since you're apparently too scared to find it yourself, here is a thread I made on BTS:
www.belowtopsecret.com...

reply posted on 16-9-2009 @ 01:00 AM by scooterstrats

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

How does quoting clandestine, non-recognized pseudo-lodges validate your accusations toward actual recognized Masonry? Please directly answer a question for once. And without deflection. Are your cited sources non-clandestine lodges? Any reasonable answer will work here....

reply posted on 16-9-2009 @ 02:19 AM by vcwxvwligen

reply to post by scooterstrats

Where do I quote "pseudo-lodges" ?

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Gemwolf]

reply posted on 16-9-2009 @ 02:35 AM by scooterstrats

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Have more than a one line post that's in violation of T/C? Your last quote/outburst doesn't seem to have originated from any recognized lodge, unless you can prove it. Then I will stand corrected. Your rebukes to legitimate questions seem to follow the beliefs if non recognizedand irrgular lodges. that is to say, NOT true Freemasons.

[edit on 9/16/09 by scooterstrats]

reply posted on 16-9-2009 @ 07:37 AM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

According to this webpage, Joabert tried to kill Jubelum in his sleep. Jubelum woke up, was stabbed in the heart and forehead, said the word "necum" (נָקְם which means "vengeance" in Hebrew, but could also be a pun for another word meaning "Israelite"), then dropped dead. There was no confession.

That would be an incorrect assesment of the ritual. In it, the stranger hears the Jubelum moaning in grief for what he has done, including hearing the confession. He attempts to apprehend him, a struggle ensues, and Jubelum is killed. The ruffian is then beheaded so that a macabre proof of his death can be delivered to King Solomon.

It is probably not necessary to mention that all Master Masons, of all Rites, are well aware of Jubelum's guilt.

That is a logical fallacy. Not all Jewish law has made it into Christian teaching. Maybe Freemasonry is more compatible with Judaism than Christianity?

That is a logical fallacy. The fact that an execution occurs in a Masonic play is irrelevant to Christianity. It's sort of like saying that Shakespeare is incompatible with Christianity because an assasination occurs in Hamlet.

reply posted on 16-9-2009 @ 10:24 PM by KSigMason

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

I wasn't too scared to look, I'm just tired of you posting rants without any proof. And your link doesn't work.

reply posted on 16-9-2009 @ 10:52 PM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
I'm just tired of you posting rants without any proof.

The ignore button is a blessed button, particularly when vcwxvwligen is at the receiving end of it. I highly encourage its use against inflammatory posts from folks who continuously, and without fail, make up stuff and sidestep requests for proof.

reply posted on 22-9-2009 @ 11:32 AM by masonic kidd

reply to post by Evangelical

i think your missing the true meanings and teachings masonry has to offer. in a lodge, there is no talk of religion nor politics. for reasons that should be shelf explainable. your not giving up jesus christ, if you actually take the time and realize that the blue lodge degrees are really an alligorical story of something more important you might actually be enlightened and appreciate the secret knowledge you know. jesus was one of the first freemasons. the ritual of the 3rd degree has been passed down to jesus from moses who obtained the secrets from the egyptian kings whos secrets were "LOST" when the last egytian pharoh was murdered. hiram abiff is the alligorical story of the death of the last egytian pharoh. im not gonna tell u it all.. as a mason its your job to decode it. your lodge should have told you that being a mason is what you put into it. obviously you are like most people who decide to be a mason and is to blind to actually see the true mysteries of the craft. maybe you should take the higher degrees like the knight templar degrees. to be a 32nd degree knight templar, you must profess a belief i jesus christ and be a member of the christian faith. point blank, the real teachings of masonry are christian.
your an ignorant brother. do not call yourself a mason.

reply posted on 22-9-2009 @ 11:35 AM by masonic kidd

reply to post by Halley86

we are for up holding the constitution, separation between church and state, and promote good morals and virtues.

reply posted on 22-9-2009 @ 11:47 AM by getreadyalready

reply to post by masonic kidd

The Scottish Rite does not define "Masonry." Neither does the York Rite, which has an entirely different basis for its teachings. And therefore, Masonry is not a "Christian" organization! I hope this isn't harsh, but to use your own words, you are the "ignorant" brother!

The third degree clearly states that there is no higher honor than the lambskin apron of the Third Degree, and any of your future teachings may enlighten you further, but they do not constitute the crux of Masonry!

Their is absolutely NO WAY it can be Christian, since it was organized long, long before there was ever a Christ! If anything, it had its beginnings in Hebrew and Muslim theology (just by geographic relavence), but it predates those as well! King Solomon's Temple was built even before much of the Old Testament was written or recognized as such!!

I commend your explanation of the allegories and your defense of the fraternity, but do not classify Masonry as Christian, or as a Religion, and thus provide fodder for the people out to destroy or demonize it!

reply posted on 22-9-2009 @ 12:11 PM by Masonic Light

Let me be a third voice weighing in on the subject:

Freemasonry does not pre-date Christ. Freemasonry traces its origins to the medieval stonemason guilds of England and Scotland. The Master Mason degree was not given to Christ, nor to Moses: it was first invented in the early 1720's, and was not officially adopted into Freemasonry until even later.

While the gothic builders of the middle ages were Christians, and Christian sentiment can be found in the Craft's early documents, the fraternity is non-sectarian.

Also, the 32° is not "Knight Templar". The Order of Knight Templar is conferred in the York Rite, while the 32° is conferred in the Scottish Rite.

The linking between Hiram and some Egyptian pharoah is a personal opinion of "masonic kidd". There is no evidence to demonstrate the validity of such a hypothesis, which seems extremely doubtful.

reply posted on 22-9-2009 @ 12:16 PM by getreadyalready

reply to post by Masonic Light

While your information is factual (according to the History Channel) it is not in agreement with the spirit of FreeMasonry. The modern "speculative" Mason's may trace their roots to the organization you mention, but the allegories and the need to protect our traditions "verbally" are credited (in our degree work) back to the building of King Solomon's Temple, and were necessary to ensure they stayed "free" men, and were not enslaved by any of the governments of the time (especially Egyptian).

So, I am not disagreeing with you, I am only stating that your explanation is a short-sighted one, that is propogated in modern literature and TV programs, but in reality, "Masonry" was around long before this version became popular.

reply posted on 22-9-2009 @ 02:26 PM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by getreadyalready

While your information is factual (according to the History Channel) it is not in agreement with the spirit of FreeMasonry.

I'm not sure what you mean. Masonic historians have studied this long before TV was invented. Brother Robert Freke Gould's celebrated "History of Freemasonry" is generally considered the authoritative source, as well as those historic research papers published by the Quatuor Coronati Lodge of Research in London, and Philalethes Society.

The modern "speculative" Mason's may trace their roots to the organization you mention, but the allegories and the need to protect our traditions "verbally" are credited (in our degree work) back to the building of King Solomon's Temple, and were necessary to ensure they stayed "free" men, and were not enslaved by any of the governments of the time (especially Egyptian).

It is certainly true that the allegories are based in biblical times, but the ceremonies themselves were not. The use of the term "free mason" came into being in medieval England, which distinguished free members of the guilds from workers bound to the manor by serfdom in the era of feudalism.

So, I am not disagreeing with you, I am only stating that your explanation is a short-sighted one, that is propogated in modern literature and TV programs, but in reality, "Masonry" was around long before this version became popular.

The legitimate history of the fraternity, as mentioned, has been around long before the modern popular myths like "The Hiram Key" and "Born In Blood" were invented. Gould, for example, published his work in the 19th century, as did the QCL in Ars Quatuor Coronati.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Masonic Light]

reply posted on 22-9-2009 @ 05:17 PM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by masonic kidd
jesus was one of the first freemasons.

Huh? Where ever did you extrapolate this from? This has absolutely zero basis in historical fact.

the ritual of the 3rd degree has been passed down to jesus from moses who obtained the secrets from the egyptian kings whos secrets were "LOST" when the last egytian pharoh was murdered.

The ever-elucidating MasonicLight gave a rather thorough explanation on the history of the 'modern' Master Mason Degree.

On a side note, Cleopatra Ptolemy was technically the 'last' Pharaoh as the country of Egypt became a Roman province after she was taken to Rome.

hiram abiff is the alligorical story of the death of the last egytian pharoh.

Once again my misguided Brother, it is the allegorical story of Hiram Abiff, no one else, not a Pharaoh, not a self-proclaimed Messiah, just orginal-flavor Hiram Abiff with three sides of ruffians.

to be a 32nd degree knight templar,

Interesting way to phrase this since the York Rite degrees are not numbered.

...the real teachings of masonry are christian.
your an ignorant brother. do not call yourself a mason.

The real lessons of Masonry are all encompassing and universal in nature and will make your faith in Diety stronger no matter what you call the Creator.

reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 11:37 PM by refuse2lose2nwo

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Evangelical

The Lodge isn't the place to spread the Gospel. You have other religions there, be respectful.

Under that logic, then nobody can spread any religious beliefs because they would have to be respectful of everyone involved. In theory if I beleived in Buddha, than are you saying I can't spread his teachings because I had to be respectful of a Christian in the room. It seems flawed to me if the masons claim all religions are to be heard and welcome but I must be respectful of all those around me.

reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 11:57 PM by Alethea