Freemasonry is unChristian

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

You don't have to beg.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Depends on where you are at. Parents where I'm at don't just give into kids demands...they are actually parents.

The town's people, the community, come together for our county fairs. I guess it's an Idaho thing.

Where did we ever say we interfere with a law enforcment investigation? We GIVE a packet to the PARENTS to GIVE to the police officer WHEN the child is lost. If the child is not lost or stolen, they just come back each year and we re-do the child's information...free of charge. If, if, the child goes missing the PARENT GIVES the information to the police officer. Once the parent leaves the booth we have no contact with the parent, the child, or the police. There is no Masonic interference in the investigation. In fact, I've had police agencies ask to borrow our system to conduct a CHIP event themselves.

So you would have the Masons turn into a band of vigilantes? You would have us conduct justice in our own eyes? Really?

Where are these Masonic living spaces? When did we start taking kids from their parents? I didn't realize giving parents a packet of their kids info was institutionalizing them into Masonic spaces? I don't get how you connect those dots.

Just because they don't appeal to your extremist anti-Mason views doesn't mean they are dilusional. You know, if you look around there are people with differing views that are not Masons.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by KSigMason]

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
There was a P2 lodge in Argentina as well.

No, there wasn't another P2 in Argentina. P2, Propaganda Due, was active in Argentina as well as Italy. It was the same clandestine Lodge.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by network dude

 

All you've given is yet more emotional appeals. You ain't flying under the radar this time, buddy.

Emotional? Whatever. It must be your feminine side picking up on that.

Lies of omission hardly count as "error." I like how your friend cut out the word "African" when you wrote the word "dissent," and then tried to spin the discussion towards my dislike of dissenting opinions. Not exactly being 100% upfront.

If I can't tell you something, that is exactly what I will say. You can't tell me what your social security number is. You are still hung up on that, upset about being called out huh? Lets keep the blame on me as it was I who said it. And I still stand behind it. I just wish I could explain it to you in a way that a second grader could get it.

I've raised points that yet remain unchallenged, which convinces me that I'm right at least part of the time.

I missed them then. I get lost in all the arguments about the sky not being blue and all.

It's a good chance that you're just jealous because my judgement is better than yours is.

I have no troll shoes that fit, so yep you guessed it. I am insanely jealous of you. Your judgement is only overshadowed by your huge intellect and compassion for others.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Did he now? Where did that happen?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Or is it that they can't confirm that the secrets posted are the ones they have learnt in their meetings?

This is exactly right. Even if you approached me face to face with me knowing that you were not a Mason, and asked me if 'X' was the Password of Master Mason (and it was), I would not confirm this for you. That is the extent of my oath. Not to reveal the secrets of the degrees.

Well, I appreciate and admire your honesty but doesn't that mean that any further debate over what masonry "is" or "Isn't" up to moot? After all I can now accuse you of anything and you can't argue back. . . Your only recourse is to either make light of the accusation, ridicule the person who made the accusation or entirely ignore the claim or question.

It's a problem that has no solution because you simply cannot tell us the truth because of your oaths.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


someone diligent enough in their research will be able to discern the truth from wild fantasies. If you really want to know, there is a way.........

I think you will have a petition filled out in less than 8 months. Either that or you are getting soft in your old age.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

Edit to add: Hanging would not be related to any of our Obligations.

King Solomon ordered two of the ruffians to be stripped naked, hung by the neck and then have their torsos cut open vertically where they were exposed to the hot sun and venomous flies and insects.

Not according to any of the Third Degree work I have ever done?!?

Are you a Mason? FAAM? In what state?
I know there is some variation in the degrees, but I don't think it would be that much!

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
After all I can now accuse you of anything and you can't argue back. Your only recourse is to either make light of the accusation, ridicule the person who made the accusation or entirely ignore the claim or question.

Common sense needs to be applied here. I can obviously challenge any accusations that may be made that do not conflict with my oath not to reveal the secrets of the degrees or to comment that a particular portion is wrong or non-present in the ritual. Notice this only has to do with particulars of the degrees and modes of recognition. Any other commentary regarding Masons or Masonry can, and has been, freely discussed.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Augustus, you are correct in defending the Fraternity, but he is correct also. A well-played argument would be able to elicit responses from a Mason that would eventually lead to the secrets! Therefore, if we defend certain aspects, or point out falsities, while ignoring certain other arguments, we are effectively giving the secrets away.

It is correct that an emotional and slanderous accuser could put us in a position that we either accept the accusations, or risk giving up the secrets!

We are in a Catch 22 much of the time! It is kind of like law enforcement, where you either wait too long, or you act too soon! You use too much force, or not enough. Either way, you end up looking bad in court!!

Luckily for us Masons, the people we want to join our fraternity are intelligent and discerning, so it is not necessary to refute all the outrageous claims, made by the uninformed, or people just looking for a fight. Our best recourse is to ignore them and let our actions, morals, and virtues speak for us and for our fraternity!!

reply to post by getreadyalready


To a degree this is correct. My lack of confirmation on an issue such as the revealing of the Substitute Word may be viewed as a tacit agreement but the operative word is tacit. But to me this is not a 'Conspiracy Theory' topic, the words and grips are all available, just do not ask me to confirm them. The majority of the topics that are discussed here revolve around nefarious actions or plots and are easily discussed.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Not according to any of the Third Degree work I have ever done?!?

Are you a Mason? FAAM? In what state?
I know there is some variation in the degrees, but I don't think it would be that much!

He is not a Mason, and you're absolutely correct, his supposed "superior knowledge" of Freemasonry is once again found lacking.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen


In the first few degrees of the Scottish Rite, they chop off the heads of the men who killed Hiram Abiff. One of them was beheaded before even being given a fair trial. Not exactly course material for "good men," "community leaders" or Christians.

1. They didn't have a trial because they plead guilty.

2. They were not "Christians". Solomon was Jewish and acting according to the Law of Moses. The ruffians, who were Tyrians, were presumably pagans.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
King Solomon ordered two of the ruffians to be stripped naked, hung by the neck and then have their torsos cut open vertically where they were exposed to the hot sun and venomous flies and insects.

Not according to any of the Third Degree work I have ever done?!?

Are you a Mason? FAAM? In what state?
I know there is some variation in the degrees, but I don't think it would be that much!

Because it's not the third degree.

Clearly, we have a Mason who doesn't know the secrets.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen


In the first few degrees of the Scottish Rite, they chop off the heads of the men who killed Hiram Abiff. One of them was beheaded before even being given a fair trial. Not exactly course material for "good men," "community leaders" or Christians.

1. They didn't have a trial because they plead guilty.

2. They were not "Christians". Solomon was Jewish and acting according to the Law of Moses. The ruffians, who were Tyrians, were presumably pagans.

They never pled guilty. They denied having killed Hiram Abiff, saying that they'd rather receive the penalties.

Jubelum was found in a cave and was beheaded by the man searching for him. The man was rewarded for his "zeal" in carrying out a vigilante murder, even though in doing so he disobeyed his orders.

The other two were found, brought before King Solomon and then summarily sentenced to death. And BTW, the three heads appear on the ribbon of the 10th degree in the Scottish Rite.

Nobody said that they were Christian. My point is that Masonic teaching directly contradicts Christian teaching.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


The trial, sentencing, and execution of the ruffians is the third degree, and both of your last two posts are entirely different than the 3rd degree work that we do in Florida.

I admit, I have not been through the Scottish Rite, but I know plenty of Masons that have gone through 32 and even 33 degrees, so I am quite certain that nothing in those rites contradicts what is in the first 3 degrees!!

Maybe you should learn the REAL work before you start making outrageous claims!!

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen


They never pled guilty.

Yes, they did.

They denied having killed Hiram Abiff, saying that they'd rather receive the penalties.

No, they didn't.

Jubelum was found in a cave and was beheaded by the man searching for him. The man was rewarded for his "zeal" in carrying out a vigilante murder, even though in doing so he disobeyed his orders.

This is only partially true. In the Ninth Degree of the Scottish Rite, a stranger overhears Jubelum in a cave confessing aloud to himself the murder. They struggle, and Jubelum is slain and beheaded.

The other two were found, brought before King Solomon and then summarily sentenced to death. And BTW, the three heads appear on the ribbon of the 10th degree in the Scottish Rite.

That also is correct, but the death sentence is given after the plea of guilty.

Nobody said that they were Christian. My point is that Masonic teaching directly contradicts Christian teaching.

Solomon acted in accordance with Jewish law, which was the basis of Christainity.

Originally posted by getreadyalready


The trial, sentencing, and execution of the ruffians is the third degree, and both of your last two posts are entirely different than the 3rd degree work that we do in Florida.

I admit, I have not been through the Scottish Rite, but I know plenty of Masons that have gone through 32 and even 33 degrees, so I am quite certain that nothing in those rites contradicts what is in the first 3 degrees!!

Maybe you should learn the REAL work before you start making outrageous claims!!

Actually, he is sort of correct. The Blue Lodges in the United States use the York Rite version of the first three degrees. There, the ruffians are apprehended and executed in the Third Degree.

In the Scottish Rite version of the Third Degree (which is only practiced in the US in a few Lodges in Louisiana), the ruffians are still on loose when the Third Degree closes. Their arrests and executions are detailed in the 9th, 10th, and 11th degrees.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Thanks, I was curious about that. I have attended and even helped in Degree Work at other lodges in Florida, and in Georgia, and there are a lot of subtle differences, but no material ones.

Part of the problem with our fraternity these days, is that even the basic principles have become so eroded that the message is almost lost! The floorwork is almost forgotten in favor of just getting the spoken parts correct, most of the Mason's conducting degrees don't know why they 'circumnavigate' the lodge 1 or 2 or 3 times, or why there is a point at the center of the lodge and meridians formed by intersecting circles around the chairs.

I would give anything to read a good account of an 'ancient' degree ceremony!!

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
They never pled guilty. They denied having killed Hiram Abiff, saying that they'd rather receive the penalties.

Jubelum was found in a cave and was beheaded by the man searching for him. The man was rewarded for his "zeal" in carrying out a vigilante murder, even though in doing so he disobeyed his orders.

The other two were found, brought before King Solomon and then summarily sentenced to death. And BTW, the three heads appear on the ribbon of the 10th degree in the Scottish Rite.

Nobody said that they were Christian. My point is that Masonic teaching directly contradicts Christian teaching.

My friend, you don't have the slightest idea what the heck you are talking about. Not remotely.

Yes they pled guilty....and the rest is added fantasy on your part I imagine, or on the part of someone who has misinformed you.

If one really wants to know what goes on in the degrees, it's not like it has been hidden since the 1800's.......any scholar worth his salt let alone a mason could refute your statement.




[edit on 15/9/2009 by ForkandSpoon]

I find it's interesting that this continued charge comes up from so called "Fundementalist Christians" when lying and bearing false witness is profoundly unchristian. Yet these accusations are full of fantasy and lies.

The most deeply pious men I have known have been ministers and masons. Especially within the York Rite we see many many Ministers from Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Mormon. Pretty mutch name any denomination....and unlike the former, so called "fundmentalists" these men tend to follow the TRUE fundementals of Christ's teaching which was not one of hate, and rumor, but rather one of unconditional love, and compassion, and self sacrifice.

It is a pity that so many Churches have been poisoned with hate mongers, who failed to understand the most basic teaching of Christ.

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

How does one pretend to be Christian and spread lies and deceit and even with self delusions reconcile those actions with Jesus's most basic teaching?

Freemasons, and their apendent bodies have been the strongest support of Christianity in this country and are responsible for gathering the funds for about half the churches in most older communities. How little...how very little you understand.



[edit on 15/9/2009 by ForkandSpoon]