The Russian Army probably took a leaf out the book of The French foreign Legion or other Soldier of Fortune ( Mercenary Organizations) this practice is commonly called hazing, many Western Nations ( Defence Forces) have ceased using this method officially even making it a Court-Martial Offence, however behind closed doors and in extreme circumstances this is still used in preference to other Disciplinary Action ( Charges & Fines) and to build respect and order with a Specialist Force.
This is in addition to Hand to Hand Combat Assault Training where a trained soldier could be a visible distraction ( refusing to carry out a command from a Superior Officer) within an Active Combat Environment where insubordination is a factor.

I have an idea.

Waste less time on stupidity, and do things that work in your favour in the long run.

Call me crazy. I suppose if what you want is mindless jockeys, creating and using a form of stockholm's might be useful. If what you are looking for is cunning technological fighters, perhaps not using a campaign of ongoing heirarchical abuse might be in order.

But then, I'm practical. If you want to instead repackage stupid, abusive and brutal and too lazy to care as a "cultural" thing I cannot understand you might be right.

I am "culturally" incapable of understanding doing the same stupid thing that doesn't work over and over because many other idiots did the same thing for a long time. Perhaps that's "cultural" bias on my part.

There is no "hardening" to this stuff. People use that line to assuage their inability to define for themselves why they continue to do stupid things without thought.

Why do training doctors stay up for 50 hours stints? Because some old guys think it makes for a good idea. Me? I don't want to operated on by someone who hasn't slept in 50 hours because it satisfies some old doctors. Call me pragmatic that way.

This has LONG been a problem in the Russian military and IMO it goes along way towards furthering the belief that Russia's military sucks. They need to enter the 21st century already and stop treating their troops like cannon fodder. It's time for Russia to professionalize it's military, create a real NCO corps (the backbone of any fighting force), increase the pay and living conditions, etc.

The Russian Army is so great that they lost 240 out of 260 tanks assigned to one division in Grozny in a SINGLE DAY in 1994. They are so brilliant they couldent figure out the obvious that you don't send tanks and APCs into a city without dismounted infantry support. Their only tactic was to send endless tanks and APCs on zerg rushes into central Grozny and then carpet bomb the city into the Stone Age when that failed. Their cordon was so ineffective that the Chechens were able to attack several artillery and support units in the "rear area" sending the mighty Russian Army into a huge rout. Entire "elite" Spetznaz units deserted to the Chechen rebels.

The video in question is at least 10 years old and was of speznatz candidates in training.
And it surprises anybody that the russian notion of a soldier being nothing more than an expendable rifle carrier continues today.

I guessed it looked like speznatz stuff. They knew what they had signed up for, nothing unusual.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
This has LONG been a problem in the Russian military and IMO it goes along way towards furthering the belief that Russia's military sucks. They need to enter the 21st century already and stop treating their troops like cannon fodder. It's time for Russia to professionalize it's military, create a real NCO corps (the backbone of any fighting force), increase the pay and living conditions, etc.

True. Currently this is the number one concern of the Russian army, and believe me the government is taking note of it. Medvedev and Putin recently launched a program for major reform in the Russian army through 2015, culminating in reduction in overall personell but eventually paving the way for a fully professional volunteer army. This will of course take no less than 10 years, possibly as long as 15, but the government is ready to take the necessary steps. Money for the reforms has been set aside already, and as long as priorities do not change, it should follow through.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
The Russian Army is so great that they lost 240 out of 260 tanks assigned to one division in Grozny in a SINGLE DAY in 1994.

I know the division you are referrencing. For one thing the vast majority of vehicles were not tanks - they were lightly armored BMP's and BTR's. There is a HUGE difference between tanks and Soviet-era APCs. Also where are you getting the number of 260? The total number of armored vehicles that entered the city on the first day of fighting was 120. The losses you mention are for the entire battle - which lasted weeks.

Also that incident had nothing to do with the training and capability of the vehicle crews. The idiot commanders and the splintered command and communication structure was to blame. Everything about that battle was done wrong, and those mistakes would not be repeated today. Look in South Ossetia war for instance, where Russian troops were far more successful.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
They are so brilliant they couldent figure out the obvious that you don't send tanks and APCs into a city without dismounted infantry support.
Their only tactic was to send endless tanks and APCs on zerg rushes into central Grozny

When the Russian armor entered the city on that day, they did not expect a battle and the field commanders had no idea about how well the city is defended. Their goal was to simply roll into the city with a show of force. Intel failed, and high level commanders (most of whom are gone now) were very reckless.

If the troops knew that there would be fierce resistance from the rebels, the tactics would have been much different. Look for example at the tactics in the battle for Grozny in the Second Chechen war (1999).

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Entire "elite" Spetznaz units deserted to the Chechen rebels.

Umm what? Can you provide a source? Spetznaz was nowhere near Grozny during that battle.

over on /k/ we call these anmals slavsh1t. I think this name is even more fitting after seeing this video.

Its just a Russioan version of "hazing"

Originally posted by PokeyJoe
That does nothing to "harden" you, all it does is train you like a little abused puppy dog. You do know know when you are going to be beaten for no reason. That is no way to battle harden or discipline new troops....we Americans have better ways to achieve discipline and training for new recruits.

Yea America always knows better, of course.
That's why just like Russian soldiers in Chechnya, American soldiers in Iraq committed abuses against local people.

Yeah, your American training is so much better then the rest of the worlds.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
Harden your body? WTF! This is the 21st century. Soldiers have body armor and assault rifles. Obviously you nor the Russians know ANYTHING about modern combat.

Is that supposed to be a joke or something? Like I posted on this site before, it is this type of ignorance that dominates the American military philosophy. You keep believing that wars are fought by guns and armour, and the rest of the world will believe that wars are won by spirit and honour.

No wonder the "supreme" American army is deadlocked with ragtag insurgencies.

ROFL......Um, Russia (or, the USSR ATT) had their butts handed to them by the Mujahideen and are still getting their ass handed to them by the Chechens. They even took quite a ponding from a tiny army in Georgia. If the numbers would have been equal and not a 100 to 1 ratio, I honeslty think the Georgians would have handed Russia their butts to them as well.

Originally posted by Nassim Haramein
Who cares? Are they forced to be there? They signed up for that....

If they don't like it.....They can quit.

yes they are forced to be there, and no they cant quit.

Originally posted by an1mal
Any UK or US military that would like to comment on this, I cant say that that is conditioning. Its abuse.

Former British soldier here and to be fair I have seen similar and worse things happen in basic training but this was back in the 1980's and those vids do not shock, they just make me remember (with a shudder).

I once commented that the dust cover was broken on my SA80 (the weapons were a new design then and had many problems). I was punched in the face and was stamped on. I was sorely tempted to do something very bad but did not obviously.

We did an assault course and one person just could not do it after a while and kept lagging behind. He was beaten and thrown about and kicked just as badly as you see in the Russian vids. Later on we found out he was having difficulties because he had suffered a spiral fracture of his femur earlier on during the assult course.

One man paid another man £50 to break his arm in a door because he did not want to continue the training. It took many attempts before the arm did break. Saw this with my own eyes. The poor guy simply ended up in jail after treatment for self inflicted injuries. The man who did it took a bad beating.

Another man went a bit funny in the head and was found behind his locker throwing bread to the ducks he had drawn on the back of his locker with a pencil. He was taken out of training and I assume discharged after treatment. At the time, many of us thought of him as a lucky SOB for thinking that one up, heh.

On another occasion, one man stopped running on something called the "zigzags" I could see bad things in his near future so I tried to drag him along with me. I was punched in the head, pushed aside and told to leave him in no uncertain terms. The man I tried to help swore at the corporal and quickly ended up with black eyes and a very swollen face (he was unrecognisable). I saw him take the beating and was not so much disgusted but rather determined not to fall behind on the run for fear it happen to me. I know the others in the company thought along those lines too.

One time I was having difficulties on a run (it was a very hot day) and I was pulled about by my ears (very painful) considering I had a heavy Bergen on my back. When I glanced back with a livid look on my face it was none other than the company commander and my heart sank. For giving him that look, a section commander ran up to me and nearly knocked me out with a punch to the back of the head. He then heeled me in the kidneys when I tried to get up.

Another time a soldier on the range had upset the very same section commander and was told to step up. He did so and received a vicious booted kick to the genitals that had him curled up for a very long time and crying out in great pain. Later on, the section commander walked up to him and apologised. ‘Sorry for kicking you in the family jewels, I was aiming for your stomach’. He was kicked for having some rust on his weapon (very bad).

Sometimes I entertain the notion that one day I might see these sadists in the street. I try not to dwell on that though as I only end up enraged.

I doubt this sort of abuse is so common these days but back then it was par for the course and you accepted it. I come from a millitary background that pretty much all joined that regiment so I was more prepared for it as I had been warned before getting on the train what to expect.

It was still a huge shock to the sytem however and back then it was classed as conditioning and it worked.








[edit on 22-7-2009 by Dissemination]

Spetsnaz are some of the toughest people on the planet. All that abuse does make them more accustomed to harsh conditions, and it broadens their threshold for pain.

Is it the best way to train a soldier? No, I don't think so.

If the 20th century has taught us anything, it's that technology wins wars. You don't need to beat your soldiers so badly that 25% or more of them can't complete training and go home with life-long injuries. All you need is a UAV with a bomb on it and a thumb to twiddle a joystick.

I don't why people act so shocked. Does this go on in the U.S. absolutely. Hazing has been around and still exist. My uncle was blood pinned when he got his pilot wngs and told me it was the one of the proudest moments of his life. Why would we want an military force full of touchy feely politically correct warriors. These men are trained to preserve and protect...us. I think everyone of those Russians who was beating was beat themselves.

One of my friend's buddys use to this in college, and its illegal now. But it was not military related, it was football related.

And some local gangs do this too if you join in a gang or if you leave...

Originally posted by Bearack
ROFL......Um, Russia (or, the USSR ATT) had their butts handed to them by the Mujahideen and are still getting their ass handed to them by the Chechens. They even took quite a ponding from a tiny army in Georgia. If the numbers would have been equal and not a 100 to 1 ratio, I honeslty think the Georgians would have handed Russia their butts to them as well.

The Soviets had imperial Afghanistan by the balls until the CIA started supplying the Mujahideen with guns money and stingers, the latter had a dramatic impact on the Russian quick-attack philosophy which involved attack helicopters and small aircraft. The Soviets were adapting to the changes anyways until it became obvious that the Soviet Union was about to change and so the war was abandoned.

The Chechen Mujahideen is much more experienced and greater equipped than tribal Afghans. Since when does the Taliban have things like ATGMs and night vision? I'm pretty sure the Chechens have APCs/tanks too, which helps their already elite insurgency force.

Yeah, I don't think the puppet state of Georgia would ever stand a chance against Russia. NATO allowed that idiot Shakashvilli to provoke Russia to test their operational response, and Russian forces were marching on Tiblisi's doorstep within a matter of days. Try researching the conflict and you'll see how prepared Russian artillery (Smerch) and airforce were compared to Georgian infantry who spent their time running away and shooting at ethnic Russians on the street. Georgia should be thankful for the bloody nose and not a broken neck.

That's not abuse that's character building.

Weeding out is a necessity in any armed force it's just the method that is different.

The Russian method is to beat the crap out of recruits and it work's so why moan about it ?

You would moan more if you were in a combat situation and your fellow soldier's started to run away.

To be a soldier you need a certain mentality there is no way to sugar coat a killing machine so why try too ?

Take care.

Regards
Lee




[edit on 22-7-2009 by h3akalee]

I agree with you, totally.

Originally posted by h3akalee
That's not abuse that's character building.

Weeding out is a necessity in any armed force it's just the method that is different.

The Russian method is to beat the crap out of recruits and it work's so why moan about it ?

You would moan more if you were in a combat situation and your fellow soldier's started to run away.

To be a soldier you need a certain mentality there is no way to sugar coat a killing machine so why try too ?

Take care.

Regards
Lee




[edit on 22-7-2009 by h3akalee]

To those who equate the conditions of the Russian conscripts to US or other Western countries:

There is some truth to the notion that Russian conscripts live and train under much crueler condition. And this is not only because "it makes them strong soldiers". There is a real problem in the Russian army, which in fact is a combination of several problems. It is nothing new - as it was much the same in the Soviet Era. But it must change if Russia is to transition to a more professional volunteer military.


Part of the problem is the funding. Many military districts in Russia, especially those of lesser importance, have difficult time providing proper and healthy housing, training equipment, and food for the soldiers. I am not even talking about wages. This problem is actually in the process of being solved - which is good.


Another problem is an unnecessarily large amount of officers and senior personnel in the army, and a strict hierarchy structure which basically encourages older servicemen to haze new recruits. It is true that there is beneficial hazing, which toughens up the recruits and conditions them for service. But then there is outright dangerous and useless hazing which does nothing but place recruits' health in risk.

One of the most hazardous types of hazing I am familiar with has to do with cold weather. Recruits may be forces to stand outside for hours in -30 Celsius degree wether without proper clothing. This can result in frostbite injuries, and is more dangerous than what you see in these videos.


The last major problem is an inproper authority structure in the armed forces. Upper command usually discourages and outright prohibits dangerous hazing, however there is no oversight over local bases and barracks. Senior conscripts who served out a year or two may assume authority over new recruits for themselves, even if they are not entitled to it.

These last two problems are only beginning to be addressed now, but it will take sometime before proper reforms get instituted throughout the Russian armed forces. As expected, there is much resistance to change because these hazing traditions have been around for a century. Creating a professional volunteer army may solve most problems, but Russia may not be able to uphold a capable military force without any conscription.