Today America stands United in Shame

I think Curme hit the nail on the head.

The military should be the last resort, not the first.

Diplomatic avenues were still open, but the US was already massing its' troops along the Iraq border.

There COULD have been a diplomatic solution to this, there is almost ALWAYS a non-military solution, problem is the Bush Administration hurried up and invaded without proper post-invasion planning.

And now you have untrained people guarding Prisoners Of War without ever even having been trained in the Geneva Conventions.


War makes people do terrible terrible things that they have to live with for the rest of their lives.

Maybe if Dubya's government had more people that had actually been IN a war, they would have been more careful.

But it's your kids and mine that are dying, not theirs.

Saddam is bad. Agreed? If you don't then go suck a lemon.

Originally posted by Jakomo
I think Curme hit the nail on the head.

The military should be the last resort, not the first.

Diplomatic avenues were still open, but the US was already massing its' troops along the Iraq border.

There COULD have been a diplomatic solution to this, there is almost ALWAYS a non-military solution, problem is the Bush Administration hurried up and invaded without proper post-invasion planning.

And now you have untrained people guarding Prisoners Of War without ever even having been trained in the Geneva Conventions.


War makes people do terrible terrible things that they have to live with for the rest of their lives.

Maybe if Dubya's government had more people that had actually been IN a war, they would have been more careful.

But it's your kids and mine that are dying, not theirs.

Problem there is, common soldiers in the US do get POW training.

I was in boot camp for the Marine Corps in 1992 but I still recall that:

You can't shoot guys who are surrendering.
You have to treat them humanely.
You are supposed to keep other Marines from abusing surrendered prisoners.
If you witness Marines abusing prisoners, you note who it was, where it was, when it was, and report it up your chain of command.
You must make an effort to remove surrendered POWs to a safe area.
You efficiently search and collect prisoners, and then follow your unit's procedure for taking care of them. For anyone on the front line that means you basically are going to give them to your company S-1 who gets them to the MPs.

MPs get even more training about Geneva Convention and how to handle prisoners.

The problem is, when you have stressed-out MPs who are assisting military intelligence in an environment where abuse is condoned, the training they recieved to prevent abuse vanishes when their superiors and intelligence experts are all telling them to do certain things.

Eventually the MPs just ended up going with the flow.

Other MPs with higher sense of morality reported the abuses. The only reason we even know about Abu Ghraib abuses is because of US military personell who blew the whistle. Some soldiers told their superiors and the MI guys to go # themselves when ordered to sic their dogs on prisoners, etc.

Bumping with a quote of my own from this thread. watch it die a quick death!

There is truth in here somewhere, this thread? the media? ... where?

Only time will tell.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
I was reading this thread a while ago, and I couldn't help but remember the day I started this thread and the feelings I had back then.

A shameless bump... maybe.. But I think maybe some new members may want a look at it.. It was interesting to read though all over again.

Really I still can't believe I wrote it. Sometimes raw emotions bring out the truth.

And what I wrote when I started this thread is as true today of not more so than it was back then

Gazz

as posted by UM_Gazz
Think! ... a brain is only a waste as long as you are without an open mind.

By chance, those who continue to think and believe contrary to you, or any others that are of like mind, on this matter, do not have an open mind?
Sounds pretty stereotypical to me, but no biggie...

Was just wondering if I was understanding what you were implying here correctly.





seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Nothing implied.. just a real opinion on a scandal... That has yet to be fully told.

It is only what you or anyone who reads through this takes from it.

Truth, lies, or reality.. That my friend is up to the reader.

To each his own.. and I hope we all have and keep our own thoughts and opinions on this, not what is being force fed to so many by the government and media.

Truth finds a way.. shame never hides or wants to be hidden... it wants to be seen and lives to slap you in the face when you least want it.



Gazz

Agreed, UM-Gazz.
Thanks for setting the record straight.
Much appreciated and my best to you.




seekerof

From the movie Serenity.

" With all the social and medical advancements we can bring to the Independents, why would they fight so hard against us?"

Then River spoke up. "We meddle."

"River?" Rao sounded surprised "I'm sorry?"

"People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk, we're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."

This is the reason why I hate America all this while.She tries to do good but just can't stop that evil itch of hers. She has to scratch it. Too many itch, too little time.

I'd love America if she doesn't scratch that evil itch.

P.S : I agree with this thread a 200%. America today stands in shame. The statue of liberty should be covered in blanket for all humanity to see.

Originally posted by Bobbo

Originally posted by s0cket
It's not fair you take up the cause of speaking for America. I'm not shamed by it... I didn't have anything to do with it. It was bad what happened but you're being overly dramatic about it. The people who are involved obviously are going to be punished and that's that. It's not like these pictures where something you'd see on ------------------------- or something. The "torture" they endured is child's play compared to what they put our boy's through then they get captured.

So get real. No it wasn't right what happened. But keep it in prospective.

-sock

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by s0cket]

look at the US Troops in those photos- especially the woman- and look at her sadistic look. obviously she took pleasure in this at the time.

it saddens me that you feel no shame for the country, because imagine travelling abroad now- we're going to be looked at, every single citizen, as a member of the country that abuses it's prisoners. now granted abuse is common in other countries, but not from the US.

You are the only was who seems unprepared for what war is. It is hell my friend.
'
I'm not the least bit ashamed of my country.

You may want to look at the dates on the posts through this thread.. This was not about the war itself ... but the Iraq prison abuse scandal.

If you look back through my posts in this thread I made a comment about videos showing sexual abuse of Iraqi children.. I said that after hearing from several "good" sources... And after all of this time it seems the story or "shame" may be leaking out... When I seen this thread...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I had to come back to this one.

I like everyone still can hope this is not true.. That is all any of us can do.

I am not ashamed of my country, nor am I ashamed of our soldiers.. I am ashamed that this kind of abuse went on under our flag and may have been ordered to some degree.. from as high up as Donald Rumsfeld, perhaps even higher.

The worst may yet to be brought to the light of day!



Gazz

then if you knew that, why did you start one?

Sometimes here at ATS, it is interesting to look back to draw inspiration, and perhaps perspective into current themes and events regarding this war.

Are we winning the war yet?

Have we helped secure our nation and create a more stable environment for democracy in the Middle East?

There is no victory in war, only shame. Tell me who wins a war?

I ask people who support this war, if you support it and think its right, go fight it.

Oh these things happen in war, this is how it is. Does it make it right? Does that give us the right to do it? No it doesnt. War is an abomination, it is only a reflection of our lack of integrity and understanding.

What would be the best way, to end all the war in the world? Well, the answer to that is: wage even more war to try and stop the wars! Our leaders seem to operate under this philosophy. Consequently, what do we have as a result? Oh we have twice the anger, twice the death, twice the violence, and twice the war, my arent we making progress!!

I remember I heard Tony Blair saying "sometimes you have to fight for peace.." HOGWASH! You dont fight for peace, you PEACE FOR PEACE! If we want a peaceful world, lets be peaceful, for crying out loud! If an act of war is commited on you, (which it wasnt by the way, 911 was an inside job), and you respind with even more acts of war, what does that solve? NOTHING! IT NEVER HAS, AND IT NEVER WILL.

I mean for crying out loud, look at the mess you Americans made in Iraq, that country is devasted beyond repair, all for what? To stop terrorism? HA!

I find it strange. What is the difference between flying a plane into a building (which Iraqis didnt do by the way), and dropping a bomb on an apartment complex or a school, if someone can spot a difference between the two, Id like to hear it.

They are both fricken terrorism, and its about time we realized it. WAR IS TERRORISM!!