Today America stands United in Shame

Saph, let's start at the basics and work from there.
Someboday killing you for your purse, bad.
Somebaody shooting the dirtbag who is trying to rob you, good.
We can work our way all the way up to international warfare, but you can take it from there.

That is to say, blowing up the WTC, blowing up the Cole, blowing up emabassies on numerous occasion, taking hostages, continuing to plot to attack noncombatants, all bad.
Defending yourself against the groups doing these things and the nations supporting them, necessary.
Protecting your population as directed by the constitution, good and proper.

Originally posted by curme

Name another company that could have moblized in time to prepare for the drama we thought we would face in Iraq.

I guess we'll never know since they didn't seek other bids. Couldn't we of found another company that didn't illegally make Saddam rich when our vice-president was in charge?

I believe you are factually incorrect to say there was no bid, I remember hearing that DOD bids engineering services contract on a three or four year basis and that Halliburton was the low bidder in the last round.

I'll have to do some searching for a link but I do distinctly recollect this to be true.

Ok added link, Halliburton won bid in 2001 against two competitors,

LOGCAP FAQS

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by Phoenix]

TC: We will always disagree on the means. There is a way to combat terror and crime. Law enforcement and judical systems. Terrorist should be tried, convicted, and sentenced just as we do with criminals. That is, after all, what they are committing. Crimes.

I'm with you for the most part, but I don't believe it would be necessary for someone to kill a purse snatcher. That's ill. Catch him, hold him, and call the authorities. That is what we pay them for! Deadly force is only necessary when there is no other option, meaning, the situation progresses to kill or be killed. Even then, the killing is wrong but it can be justified as self defense.

boy oh boy...i can't stay on topic. back to "we are all shamed"--or whatever.

Originally posted by Phoenix

I believe you are factually incorrect to say there was no bid, I remember hearing that DOD bids engineering services contract on a three or four year basis and that Halliburton was the low bidder in the last round.


[Edited on 9-5-2004 by Phoenix]

I may not of been clear, sorry. The Army Corps of Engineers gave Halliburton a no-bid contract worth billions to fight Iraqi oil fires. They said it was because of LOGCAP that they didn't have to seek a contract, but some say one doesn't have to do with the other.

HERE an interesting article on the subject.



[Edited on 9-5-2004 by curme]

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by curme]

Thomas Crowne,

If I am a danger to society, I am really looking forward to seeing you at my doorstep with a gun! Wow, that'll be a sight to see!

Okay, let's do it this way. Prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that good and evil do exist. You claim the concept is so simple, so if you're that smart, let's see why good and evil exist. All you've done so far is give your own opinion and flawed logic. In fact, all you've said is under the assumption there is good and evil, so you have an awful arguement thus far.

If good and evil existed, then I would be the honest embodiment of evil. I have lied, cheated, and stolen (but who doesn't) my entire life, and I have never asked for forgiveness because I am not Christian and think religion is bad. That's a correct assessment, right?

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by Saphronia
TC: We will always disagree on the means. There is a way to combat terror and crime. Law enforcement and judical systems. Terrorist should be tried, convicted, and sentenced just as we do with criminals. That is, after all, what they are committing. Crimes.

I'm with you for the most part, but I don't believe it would be necessary for someone to kill a purse snatcher. That's ill. Catch him, hold him, and call the authorities. That is what we pay them for! Deadly force is only necessary when there is no other option, meaning, the situation progresses to kill or be killed. Even then, the killing is wrong but it can be justified as self defense.

boy oh boy...i can't stay on topic. back to "we are all shamed"--or whatever.

Thomas Crowne's problem is, he thinks what we're saying is that terrorism is good. His closed mind is missing the entire point.

The point is, it all depends on the way we see it. Relativity. I think rape is "bad," but just because me and a majority of the people see it that way doesn't mean it is. It all depends on POV.

That's how laws are made. They agree upon what's right and wrong. But none of it is set in stone, it's all based on their perception. For example, it's right in Saudi Arabia to beat your wife to death if she cheats on you, but in America, that is wrong. They are right in their own mind and they are wrong in our mind. Another example is the whole genital piercing issue. I think it's great, but the legislators agree and think that it's wrong.

But Thomas Crowne, being as clueless as he is, will probably call me a rapist in the next post!

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

This is the most idiotic topic I have seen in a very long time....

UNITED in shame? FAR FROM IT! The only ones feeling shame are those that commited the abuse. I am shamefull however, that I come from the same country as some of these pathetic people calling for Rumsfelds job over this. HOW IN THE HELL IS HE, BUSH, OR ANYONE ELSE RESPONSABLE FOR THOSE ACTIONS? No one in the whitehouse ordered this to happen, neither did D.R. It's so sick to see every liberal in this country using this as an excuse to attack Rumsfeld, Bush or anyone else - the only people that should be attacked are those that had direct involvement with the treatment of prisoners.

HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME IF YOU WISH - BUT I WILL NOT! OUR ARMED FORCES ARE DOING AN EXCELLENT JOB AND I WILL NOT LET THE ACTIONS OF A FEW TARNISH THE GREATNESS OF MANY.

Donald Rumsfeld is responisible because he knew about these abuses, and it just not a 'few', there's a lot more, for at least a year and did or said nothing. Not to the President (Bush says the first he heard of it was on tv) or congress.

Originally posted by curme
Donald Rumsfeld is responisible because he knew about these abuses, and it just not a 'few', there's a lot more, for at least a year and did or said nothing. Not to the President (Bush says the first he heard of it was on tv) or congress.

So you are saying because he discovered abuses were going on it is his fault?

OK, then I guess everytime any CEO finds out that some worker stole something from a factory half way around the world then that CEO should be fired? HAHAHA - the whole world economy would collapse in a single day! Talk about poor logic.

He did/said nothing (though this is hardly the case) because it would directly cause harm to OUR soldiers. He didn't want hundreds of our GI's getting attacked because of 10 or 12 cases in a year. You do realize that there are 130,000 of our guys over there, and about 129,950 of them would never do anything like this. Get real dude.

BTW - I hope yu know that he made it clear that abuse cases were taking place well before last week.

Saph, I did not mean that one should shoot a purse snatcher if there are other means available, and I didn't mean if your life was not in reasonable danger , either. However, if it did come down to that, the "wrong" would be on the part of the criminal, not the defender.

Saph, this terrorism is not criminal, it is war. It is a war that has been declared time and again by those waging it against us, we've only now responded to it as such. You do not conduct war as a criminal investigation, you cannot win a war by treating each act of war as a crime. To try and do that would be to sit and watch countless noncombatants die, cities damaged and destroyed, the economy be wrecked and the nation fall. To think that one can rationalize and debate with those who want you to die is nothing more than a pipe dream. Nobody (in their right mind) wants war, nobody wants destruction and loss of life, but there are times when a nation must either defend itself or cease to be.

Sweat, my mind is not closed, I just don't think its so wise to have one's mind so wide open that one gets it so cluttered with stupidity that one can't even realize there is right and wrong, good and evil. If you think that rape is only wrong because you and the majority says it is, you have no clue. You really don't know where law is founded. Law doesn't make right and wrong, right and wrong determines what is law. You can't tell whether you are coming or going. It is, in fact, set in stone.

You are a danger to society if you don't know right from wrong and are so stupid as to not know good and evil. But that doesn't mean I'll show up on your doorstep. If I were to, it wouldn't be a sight you'd see, I promise you. You say you've lied, stolen and cheated your whole life, and are not even ashamed of it? You actually think this is the norm? I rest my case, Sweat, and stand by everything I've said about you. As a matter of fact, you stand by everything I've said as well, as you are exhibit "A" for all my points. I can see why you don't want to see the difference between good and evil, right from wrong. What I don't see is why I am bothering talking with you, as it is a waste of time to talk to a liar, and only a fool would talk to a proud self-declared liar. That is why I am through.

Sweetmonica, not every person in the world does the things you say you have done. Althou most people are not saints, sometime or another most people have lied in their lives. Perhaps when they were young, if not when they are adults. Now, i am not saying everybody lies.

I have lied when I was a child to avoid being punished, and a lot of kids have done and will do this for the same reason. As an adult yes i have said small lies, for example to keep a surprise party a secret, but no outright lies.

Stealing in itself is bad also, althou I do understand that some people in the world have to steal to survive and buy bread or water for their families and themselves. Luckily, I have never had to steal, and I don't think I will ever steal. Actually I am sure of this.

I can assure you that I have never cheated on any of my girlfriends, or my exwife when I was married to her. There are people out there that don't cheat either, believe it or not, so your comment is a stereotype you have created.

As for being evil, I would not qualify you as that, but you know you have been bad.

I consider an evil person someone who likes to inflict damage, emotional or physical to other people, knowingly. People who delight in torturing, killing, raping others, are evil also.

That's what evil is. To inflict emotional or physical damage on others for the pleasure of one individual, not caring what you do to others to achieve your goals, that's evil too.

Mua, a liar, a cheat and a thief does hurt people. Reread what he hasd told you. He does these things at a minimum, and is unashamed. What, does he have to carve a neighbor's head clean off and mail it to a nearby Girls Scout troop before you consider his actions evil?

Here's something to think about. He claims to be an unrepetant liar, right? So how do we know he's telling the truth about any of it? As a matter of fact, we don't even know that what he says is really his opinion, do we? As a matter of fact, anything he types is automatically suspect.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Sweat, my mind is not closed, I just don't think its so wise to have one's mind so wide open that one gets it so cluttered with stupidity that one can't even realize there is right and wrong, good and evil. If you think that rape is only wrong because you and the majority says it is, you have no clue. You really don't know where law is founded. Law doesn't make right and wrong, right and wrong determines what is law. You can't tell whether you are coming or going. It is, in fact, set in stone.

You are a danger to society if you don't know right from wrong and are so stupid as to not know good and evil. But that doesn't mean I'll show up on your doorstep. If I were to, it wouldn't be a sight you'd see, I promise you. You say you've lied, stolen and cheated your whole life, and are not even ashamed of it? You actually think this is the norm? I rest my case, Sweat, and stand by everything I've said about you. As a matter of fact, you stand by everything I've said as well, as you are exhibit "A" for all my points. I can see why you don't want to see the difference between good and evil, right from wrong. What I don't see is why I am bothering talking with you, as it is a waste of time to talk to a liar, and only a fool would talk to a proud self-declared liar. That is why I am through.

You took the words right out of my mouth
It is a dark day when people actually believe that there is no wrong and right. The idea of wrong and right is the very fabrick that makes us human. To try and justify a man beating his wife to death by saying it is acceptable in his culture is sad. I say - WHAT CULTURE?! Any society that allows a man to beat, much less kill his wife is below contempt. In fact, what is that man doing wedding a women that he could in his right mind kill?

Well, after i read that SweetMonica (why a female name??) believes there is no good or evil, I have to somewhat agree with you TC. A person that doesn't see the line between good and evil is bound to commit evil acts.

SM, a gun has no concious, it cannot decide either, so its neither good, bad or evil, just like energy is just potential. But humans beings have a concious, and a human being can be either good, bad or evil.

In the U.S there is no reason why a person has to steal, so i do consider this as bad, it can also be considered evil, because there are many consequences for the person you steal from.

Also remember that, according to Rumsfeld (and I know you can't believe what he says, but this has been verified by the Red Cross) that US troops have been torturing people for at least a year, long before Fallujah. I hear a lot of people say, 'Look what they did in Fallujah' but long before that the Iraqis could of been saying, 'Look what they are doing in the prisons.' Torture is wrong, no matter who does it, I would even go so far as to say it's even more wrong for us because it goes against everything we stand for. But some people like
to play the the 'Fallujah card' to minimize what we have done, and it should never be minimalized.

Originally posted by curme
Also remember that, according to Rumsfeld (and I know you can't believe what he says, but this has been verified by the Red Cross) that US troops have been torturing people for at least a year, long before Fallujah. I hear a lot of people say, 'Look what they did in Fallujah' but long before that the Iraqis could of been saying, 'Look what they are doing in the prisons.' Torture is wrong, no matter who does it, I would even go so far as to say it's even more wrong for us because it goes against everything we stand for. But some people like
to play the the 'Fallujah card' to minimize what we have done, and it should never be minimalized.

Iraqis tortured Americans and Americans tortured Iraqis. It's war - on every side there are going to be bad apples. It is no more wrong or right for either side. BTW - I wouldn't compare humiliation with true TORTURE - but thats just me.

BTW - I wouldn't compare humiliation with true TORTURE - but thats just me.

BTW - I wasn't.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is ``going to get worse'' and warned that the most ``disturbing'' revelations haven't yet been made public.
``The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here,'' he said. ``We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.'' Boston Herald

Originally posted by curme

BTW - I wouldn't compare humiliation with true TORTURE - but thats just me.

BTW - I wasn't.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is ``going to get worse'' and warned that the most ``disturbing'' revelations haven't yet been made public.
``The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here,'' he said. ``We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.'' Boston Herald

Yes, I know of this. It is just that most of "the talk" is about the pics that have been published. I do not condone or excuse these acts - believe me. I just get pissed when people blame it on guys like Rumsfeld who had no control over these people and when people make it out like this is the end of the world. It is a sad fact, but in war this is what happens. It doesn't represent the majority of our soldiers or our country, but people (for political reasons) like to make it a national issue instead of a military punishment situation. There is no reason that the President or sec of defence should be held accountable.

HA!

A little humiliation to get someone to talk? Visit your local police department. They will do worse to squeeze out a confession from an american, and youll never hear about it.

At least when we are done, the prisoners get 3 hots and a cot--and theres always some bleedin heart liberal looking out for the interest of ruthless killers and demeaning the United State s military at the same time.
So they will be just fine, Dont worry YOUR bleeding heart.
Theres probably a couselor there right now evaluating the prisoner s for PTSS.

Hey we stopped throwing pigs blood on muslims a long time ago.

We are going to do what it takes to bring to justice those who made my fellow New Yorkers CHOOSE to jump 103 stories, instead of burning to death. I will never forget and neither should you. There was no choice. Sit back and let this happen again? No way guys, uhuh.

My boys didnt hang anyone from a bridge. American soldiers are not dragging any arabs around behind vehicles. So these guys feel some shame. Well they should. Its a tactic and this is war.

Go to Switzerland or France if you fear confrontation.

God knows what they are doing to our prisoners of war. Believe me, they arent making them to bare their ass for a photograph. With Uday and Cusay (sp.) as roll models for abusers, Im sure its not good.

There are ways of getting prisoners to divulge without pulling out their fingernails or zapping their genitals with cattle prods, but its still not pretty.

GEt over it!

S E M P E R F I,

Kristine

Originally posted by Bobbo
it saddens me that you feel no shame for the country, because imagine travelling abroad now- we're going to be looked at, every single citizen, as a member of the country that abuses it's prisoners. now granted abuse is common in other countries, but not from the US.

You've never been to jail before, have you? Most prison guards are just as sadistic, although they don't get away with as much physical abuse, since that sort of treatment is pretty serious now. It does indeed happen though, constantly. They can normally get away with practically any kind of abuse that doesn't leave physical marks, or witnesses.

Originally posted by xxKrisxx
A little humiliation to get someone to talk? Visit your local police department. They will do worse to squeeze out a confession from an american, and youll never hear about it....

There are ways of getting prisoners to divulge without pulling out their fingernails or zapping their genitals with cattle prods, but its still not pretty.

GEt over it!

I don't guess you've heard of the Geneva Convention? I don't care what the reasons are, or how you try to justify it, people who can abuse other humans, smile and joke about it, are sick. You obviously have no morals, or you're one of those sick types. I don't want people like that in our military or our gov't. In fact, I don't even want them in my country...or even in my world at all. See, to me, those are the types of people that cause all of the conflict in the world. Their best effort is only to pretend that they're not sick individuals, and that's not good enough. They're still sick, no matter how good they are at acting like they're normal. People like that are indeed dangerous, IMO.

[Edited on 5-9-2004 by Satyr]