Today America stands United in Shame

It is only a small part of the military that do things like these, people that to begin with have no moral values at all and think because they are in the other side of the world where they are not always under supervision they can do anything they want.

You see this happening in almost all military bases around the world, even in the States. In NAS Jax and NAS Pensacola, among others, we always heard the stupid things some of our sailors/soldiers did, some of them raped women, some of them stole cars while drunk etc, etc.

Just because someone is in the military doesn't make them a good person. I had to work my ass off, with other square away sailors, in many instances in the bases i was stationed at because there were some soldiers and sailors that wanted to be scumbags, while the square away sailor/soldier paid for their stupid actions by doing their jobs and ours too in many instances.

I can't count how many times i had to do guard duty twice a night, 2 hours each, some days of the week, getting just a few hours of sleep to go to school and then work in the barracks the next day because some sailor went AWOL. It usually happened once or twice a week, in some bases it happens more than in others.

The military is understaff as it is, except now is getting a bit better staffed due to more people joining for the war.
But you will always get scumbags, even in the military.

HEADS
NEED
TO
ROLL!

No, today American stands united in outrage and anger at the shameful acts of few.

America has not done anything shameful in these acts. We as a country have been shamefully represented by a handful of nimrods with perverted tendencies and skewed morals.

American stands united and with a common voice against what has happened. That is all we can do.

Originally posted by Valhall

America has not done anything shameful in these acts.

This line kind of speaks for itself.

We can say it, and we can try to believe it... The reality is these abuses were carried out by US soldiers, in uniform, on duty, and under the American Flag.

We have been shamed.. Just look through this thread and see how many times you see the word "shame" in all of it's forms.

This shame will haunt us in the future, accept it or not.

There are many who judge all muslims based on the actions of a few... They are judging us in the same way.

It is all a shame, and a tragic turn of events.. seeing any good we have done by removing Saddam turned into a new evil occupation of Iraq.. and that is their view not mine!

We will pay for this shame, and not just the ones the courts find guilty.

Gazz

SOmeone kill ****** and ****** ****.
There is a hawk and hillbillie leading the country.

Mod edit to remove potentially illegal-nasty stuff. Don't post comments like that in the future.

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by Banshee]

Originally posted by hanshoe
SOmeone kill ______ and ______ ____.
There is a hawk and hillbillie leading the country.

That kind of talk can get you in a lot of trouble... just a warning.. To even speak or write like that has gotten many people in an intense situation with the US secret service or FBI.. Think before you post and you may want to edit your comments.

Just some simple advice.

Gazz

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Originally posted by DamnableSara
I am sorry that it happened� but that�s war, folks. You can tell me that I ought to feel shame, or guilt for what happened to them because of my location, and all I can say is why? What hand did I have in it? How could I have prevented it?

No, it's contrary to any rules of engagement.

If you are an American, and if you have national pride, and you know that this was done under orders of the military who have sworn to defend and protect you, then of course you will feel shame.

Did you vote? Would you vote the same way, knowing that the corrupt admin that you allowed to be placed in office had predetermined the agenda to invade Iraq on fallacious grounds, and done everything in their power to stop people ever being made aware of these abuses?

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by DamnableSara
I am sorry that it happened� but that�s war, folks. You can tell me that I ought to feel shame, or guilt for what happened to them because of my location, and all I can say is why? What hand did I have in it? How could I have prevented it?

No, it's contrary to any rules of engagement.

If you are an American, and if you have national pride, and you know that this was done under orders of the military who have sworn to defend and protect you, then of course you will feel shame.

Did you vote? Would you vote the same way, knowing that the corrupt admin that you allowed to be placed in office had predetermined the agenda to invade Iraq on fallacious grounds, and done everything in their power to stop people ever being made aware of these abuses?

I was 3 months shy of voting in 2000, and I'll probably get flamed for this, but in the upcoming election, I heartily dislike both candidates but if I vote will most likely vote for Bush. This sort of corruption you're talking about... you honestly don't think that went on in previous administrations? You don't think it will occur in future administrations? You don't think it goes on around the world?

I feel sorry for what happened to those people... but I cannot feel shame because it is something that happens in every war, and something that is not always talked about. They were caught this time, because they were sloppy. Now the military will be watching, the war will end, we'll regain our reputation a great deal of time from now, another war will begin, and it will happen all over again. Whether it�s America, Germany, Iraq, Britain, Japan, or any other country or group of people in the world, it will happen again, and that�s the part I find especially sad. It�s a problem that nobody seems to be able to correct. War is Hell... last I checked when you're shooting at people, there's an unspoken rule that there are no rules, just pleasentries and a greements that are easily broken.

To me shame can only be felt once... in repetition it's pointless because the people who can change it, do not plan for the long term, and at the moment, this is nothing I can help. I've done nothing wrong, and to let some soldiers wear the whole of America on their sleeve so the world can judge us base don the actions of a few... is rediculous, and narrow, despite the fact that the uniform conveys that very sentiment.


[Edited on 8-5-2004 by DamnableSara]

United in shame, speak for yourself because I don't agree.
A few bad apples does not make the whole barrel rotten.

These soldiers are given training in basic about the geneva rules, they have no excuse and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UMCOJ.

What I am not hearing about in the media or from our democratic collegues is anything about good things that have occured in Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam.

This whole thing is just another politically charged blowup in order to stain Bush prior to the election.

I would be more open to the lefts outrage if I had seen that same outrage at the news of Saddams killing and torturing of 300,000 of his own people, silence was what I heard instead.

Time after time there were massacres and atrocities committed all over this world in the last ten years, the response from the left was abject silence.

Until of course a Republican administration took the whitehouse - then every incident involving even a few people becomes a national tragedy that demands answers NOW.

I don't claim in any way that the actions of these troops is moral at all, but I question the selective morality of the loudest complainers in this particular incident when put into context of history of ignoring other atrocities that were not politically expediant.

Originally posted by Phoenix
This whole thing is just another politically charged blowup in order to stain Bush prior to the election.

Are you saying that this was all fake? or are you saying that the actual abuse was done to help someone's political agenda?

Be a proud patriot, stand firm, but when the nation you stand so proudly for fails to live up to your standards accept the bad, and if you feel no shame in all of this and you are truely an american. You must be programmed by the spin doctors and the mainstream media.

This is not about YOUR shame.. It is about the shame of a nation.

Think about it.. really think!

Gazz

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

I have to say I'm not shamed either. I don't care what the rest of the world thinks of us because everyone has an agenda. There are those that are loving every minute of this because it furthers their cause of globalization. Their only wish is to drag us down in the dirt. Its already a crime for me to love my country now I have to be ashamed of it...pshh...not going to happen. Dead children don't shame us why should this? There is no line people all of it is wrong. So, the arabs are pretty pissed off. But they've been pissed off for a while now. What? The rage went up another notch...woooo...now they really, really wanna kill us.

These acts were unfortunate, not sad, not devasting, not unamerican. My god please, the rhetoric being used is so pathetic. And the president actually apologizing to the whole arab world because a couple hundred folk were tortured...why didn't he just hand over our sovereignty with a big hey kool-aide grin on his face? So sorry, so very very very sorry that we tried to free you bastards and so sorry that we want you to have democracy so that you stop blaming us for all your problems and start blaming your own damn government.

We are headed for a really big fall if we keep letting the world dictate to us how we should feel as a people. They've already got us by their international law.....that was a rant. oh well, i was due for one.

Hmmm. I am not ashamed in the least. So, some unwise soldiers have humiliated the enemy. So what? It's not like we took 100,000 of them and put them in a big mass grave. I imagine the prisoners were still getting fed, and wern't getting body parts cut off or crushed.

Torture? HaHa. That wasn't torture folks. Torture is when things get broken, a lot of blood gets lost, and there is a lot of physical pain. Humiliation is pretty minor compared to that.

So, you are ashamed of America? Don't be. Be ashamed of the soldiers who did this if you wish, but understand that compared to actual war, this was very minor. This is what happens when you force soldiers to be policeman and prison guards. What? Do you think a military uniform suddenly instills morals and a penchant for righous behavior? I still expect that we (the US) treat our prisoners better than anyone else.

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by Ambient Sound]

Originally posted by Saphronia

Their only wish is to drag us down in the dirt.

Who's wish is it? Who makes this wish? We did not get dragged into the dirt here. we dove into it face first, eyes and mouth open.

The dirt you speak of did not come from the enemy in this war, it came from our own fellow americans, You should as an American feel shame for the actions or abuse.

There is more and more in this developing story, even our own leaders are confessing this, Donald Rumsfeld has even warned that we have not seen the worst yet.

Will video images of US soldiers raping Iraqi children open your eyes to the shame of this nation?

What will it take to cause you to feel shame at the actions of our own US soldiers?

We can all try to look away from this issue all we want, it is not going away.. and it is not over yet.

You can feel pride in your nation and shame for what happened at the same time. You are not forced to be on one side or the other.

But remember this, The shameful actions that has brought to this point, has been shown to go much higher up the chain of command than anyone wanted to believe.

Remember when these photos were turned in and an investigation began it was near a year ago.

Donald Rumsfeld admits that he should have brought it forward a lot sooner.. To me that is the same as saying "we were looking for a way to sweep this under the rug before the world and media got ahold of it"

There is real talk at high levels of removing Donald Rumsfeld from his position, and Rumsfeld did in his own world admit his guilt in this case. This should show you that at least one person in the White House is feeling the shame from all of this.

What is the real shame is that it takes something like this to wake up to the reality and evil of war on all sides and at every level.

Gazz



[Edited on 8-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz

We have been shamed.. Just look through this thread and see how many times you see the word "shame" in all of it's forms.

This shame will haunt us in the future, accept it or not.

There are many who judge all muslims based on the actions of a few... They are judging us in the same way.

Well, Gazz, I think we are saying the same thing only differently. America has been shamed. America should not be ashamed of itself, but of the acts that have cast this disgusting shadow across us. America has done nothing wrong. But a wrong has been done to America.

Your statements of the gravity of this are absolutely in agreement with my feelings. I do not believe that ANY minimalization of these acts should be tolerated. That's why it really torques me off to read some one's comments about "yeah, but they drug our people's dead bodies through the streets". No...that isn't the issue. Two wrongs don't make a right. And there is NO justification to barbaric acts.

And word up, as pissed as I was at seeing the desecration of dead bodies, guess what??? the dead bodies didn't care! But these living individuals who have been abused, degraded and humiliated do - and so does every other decent citizen of the world.

There have been members on this board that have jumped me for stating I believe a firing squad is in order. I still feel that way. These acts have (MARK MY WORD) set in action a series of consequences that we probably can't even speculate on at this point. This is a serious, serious situation.

Like it or Not this is America. Don't let some people represent 200 hundred years of goodness. Spread your shame to Palestians blowing themselves up. Don't be ANTI-american

Originally posted by Zuzubar
Like it or Not this is America. Don't let some people represent 200 hundred years of goodness. Spread your shame to Palestians blowing themselves up. Don't be ANTI-american

I'll assume you're not talking to me as I have said nothing "anti-american". But you have confused me by obfuscating the discussion of these acts by throwing in, of all things, the Palestinians??? How the hell did the Palestinians force these worthless American military personnel to acts of barbarism?

Wow! Not only are the Palestinians so powerful they can move the entire middle-east, but now they have powers over the U.S.!

[Edited on 5-8-2004 by Valhall]

Look, it's really simple. Take any group of 100,000 Americans. A certain % of those will be sadistic, evil, cruel bastards. Add to this a nessisary culture in the Military of inflicting War (and all it's attendant horrors) upon your enemy, how can you imagine that this type of stuff doesn't happen and has not always happened? But now everyone has a camera. Now there is a world wide web to distribute pictures with. Now the world really is watching.

United in shame? Who stands united in shame? I have a quick question for you, um-Gazz, did you have anything to do with the warped and disgusting behavior of a handful of people? Were you one of them? I sure as heck wasn't, you can bet on that, and you can leave me out of those united in shame. Persoanlly, I want to see those pieces of scum who gave a black eye to my beloved MP corps swing from a tree, that's what I want. They have disgraced the MP's and the Army and have given propaganda ammunition to both the U.S.-hating Arab papers and the self-loathing, weak-minded left here in the States. However, I'm not one of those self-loathing whimps that never pass up an opportunity to speak disparagingly about my country.

I here morons like Charlie Wrangle (and of course, then repeated by knee-jerk mush for brains across the nation) that everyone in the chain of command from Rumsfield down should by fired. Really? Who'd a figured, an extreme left congressman screaming for Rummy's head on a platter. Politics and stupidity. Rummy had nothing to do with that, no more than he could no that somewhere right no in Iraq so inattentive soldier is running his truck dry of fuel. Knee-jerk people, however, repeat crap without even thinking, causing people like me who do think to get headaches trying to figure out how people can be so mindless. My question is, where were the sergeants? Was the Lt and CO stoned? Why were they not aware? The First Shirt, where was his head? Those are the questions, those are the ones in the chain of command who should be held accountable, not someone on another continent.

However, while you Domestic U.S. bashers hand your heads, wear sackcloth and throw ashes upon your heads, remember this, the abuses were made known by the same military that you are now aashamed of. The military, like the rest of us, do not condone such activity. They are not trying to cover it up, not are they promoting such behavior. We are not like the enemy. We do not condone torturing people, we do not condone taking hostages and beheading them, we don't run people the plastic shredders. So, these acts commited by a handul of idiots and perverts is not swept under the rug with a knowing wink.

To put it in your own words, Gazz, "Think! ... a brain is only a waste as long as you are without an open mind." But just don't be so stupid as to think that you need to have your mind so "open" that all kinds of trash falls in.

You can't just say that it's only Americans... to be fair. There are sadistic people all over the world, and I for one don't feel that our culture is fairly represented by the actions of a few, which has been stated so many times in this thread.

TC

I have a question. Is it correct to state that the lower ASVAB scoring individuals end up as MP's? In other words, if you can't qualify for more technical MOS's, you can qualify for MP? Is this correct? (And, please, before anybody jumps on me, I'm not dissing MPs, I'm trying to get straight whether this is SOP.)

If so...don't you think that this will change that? That the MP position will be reconsidered in its importance?