Today America stands United in Shame

A few weeks ago, could you have dreamed of the events we all have seen?

Can you now look away, or seek a rational way to dismiss the fact that we as a nation have been shamed in every possible way?

We are a nation of freedom, a nation of pride, and thought to have been a nation of "higher moral value"... We have felt the hand of evil, and have shown that we are no longer immune to being seen as that very evil.

Through the actions of a few, we have been hit with the shameful reality that, just because we are the world's super power, and we have all the answers to the world conflicts... we at least are no better than them... we are human beings, with flaws, and unspeakable evils, just as they are.

We are human on all sides... and this war so far has shown at least that.

No matter what is said and done from this day forward, there will be no way to erase this shame.

You can put any spin on it you want, soak up the media hype, or just avoid the topic all together. It will not change what has happened or what has been done.

Everyone is seeking justice now.. but who is just in this war now?

We are the people of this world and that is all of us... on all sides... when you can see the value of all human lives and learn the most basic respect for that life maybe we can find some real answers and move toward peace.. a real and lasting peace.

What the hell did Iraq have to do with the war on terrorism?.. someone asked me once and I made pages of answers.. but now I am willing to admit that going into Iraq had nothing to do with the war on the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11/01.

Shame on them, and now it is shame on us.

The next time we are attacked there will be many more in the middle east and a great deal of the world who will say "they had it coming" or they got what they deserved"

The impact of the recent events of this war will take years to evolve.. and even longer to understand.. we exposed to the world our basic flaw of being human and can become evil in every possible way.

War On Terrorism?

Show me who the real terrorists are now!... better yet show me where they are.

Think! ... a brain is only a waste as long as you are without an open mind.

Gazz

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

I agree with you 100%. As a Marine, I find the recent events even more shameful (even though it was Army reservists who did it). All of America is to blame for any atrocity that's committed in a war, and the armed forces are especially to blame. This is just another thing that should be thought about before making the decision to enter into armed conflict, but one that is rarely, if ever, considered.

It's not fair you take up the cause of speaking for America. I'm not shamed by it... I didn't have anything to do with it. It was bad what happened but you're being overly dramatic about it. The people who are involved obviously are going to be punished and that's that. It's not like these pictures where something you'd see on ------------------------- or something. The "torture" they endured is child's play compared to what they put our boy's through then they get captured.

So get real. No it wasn't right what happened. But keep it in prospective.

-sock

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by s0cket]

Id have to agree. I hardly feel shame at this, Im more ashamed of the President and the fact we are in Iraq. But this incident is one small event, nothing Im sweating over. However, I do feel very bad about the implications this will mean for troops remaining there, because they will get targeted and harrassed and killed even more, maybe tortured if captured.

Originally posted by s0cket
It's not fair you take up the cause of speaking for America. I'm not shamed by it... I didn't have anything to do with it. It was bad what happened but you're being overly dramatic about it. The people who are involved obviously are going to be punished and that's that. It's not like these pictures where something you'd see on ------------------------- or something. The "torture" they endured is child's play compared to what they put our boy's through then they get captured.

So get real. No it wasn't right what happened. But keep it in prospective.

-sock

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by s0cket]

so you basically think that this is an "eye-for-an-eye" situation?

since they capture our men, and torture them, we should do the same to them?

America should be a role model for the rest of the world. but due to a few idiots who thought it would be funny to get a few prisoners to take some photos in compromising poses, now the country looks bad.

look at the US Troops in those photos- especially the woman- and look at her sadistic look. obviously she took pleasure in this at the time.

it saddens me that you feel no shame for the country, because imagine travelling abroad now- we're going to be looked at, every single citizen, as a member of the country that abuses it's prisoners. now granted abuse is common in other countries, but not from the US.

MSNBC is reporting the following. How will our image recover, especially with the raping of children???

www.msnbc.msn.com...

"Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and �acting inappropriately with a dead body.� The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. "

Oh dear lord, it says US personnel filmed Iraqi guards raping young boys. Why would they not stop it, and what if some of our troops were involved.


[Edited on 5/7/2004 by nativeokie]

If America was allowed to opperate like our founding fathers wanted, this president and his choices of people he surrounds himself with would never have happened.

"We the people"...words George has yet to learn.

After all is said and done, those who fought to stop all this will be the ones helping to put it all right with the world and Iraq!

All George can really take credit for is having done it his way, not ours.

And to comment on the topic more directly I do feel shame. Not for the 99.9% of troops that are doing their job within the rules of engagement and international law but shame for what those deviants have done.

They are still Americans, we have to claim the good with the bad.

We had better not go soft on the guilty. It is the only hope we have to lessen the impact.

And a Marine too, I can only imagine the shame the parents feel, to see their sons and daughters as....ughm...war criminals.

I was only baby killer when I got home, least I didn't have to face the media. Or the world.

Perhaps we should just leave the mess we made, give Saddam back his throne, and apologize to the world for sticking our high and mighty necks out and our nose where it didn't belong.

Then in a hundred years, if we are lucky, America can be accepted as a people among peoples and brothers among the nations of the world, not the evil capitalists who are no better than the communist. Either extreme it seems leaves 95% of a nation's people without representation, without ability to guide government, and without the gazillons necessary to effect change.

G

Eh, this type of crap happens on all sides. Every country is guilty of it - it will never change. They're just appologizing because they got caught red handed (no pun intended). I dislike it just as much as the next person, but it happens.

Should we be better because we are America? Maybe. Will this leak change anything? No. It just means that they will be watching for cameras much more closely now.

it is sad and shameful. it probably speaks a bit about just how sick our american society is. not that there aren't worse places in the world, but we are supposed to be the exception when it comes to military justice not just another group of sickos. stareing the ugly truth right in the face. i guess we the world got some problems, but what else is new?


it makes me ashamed
i am not in the military, i know people who are, some them are great, some of them i don't care for.

so all kinds of people go the military for various reasons or maybe more similiar than i'd like to believe. i would not want to have to be the one deciding to send troops to war or the one going to war, so i usually don't criticize them, but that makes me disgusted and shameful that american troops would do that.

but then again what else is new. this is hell and america is leading the way.


[Edited on 5/7/2004 by panchovilla]

I was there when Bagdad fell, just so you know where I'm coming from. It looks like they are trying to pin this on about six low-level soldiers. Of course, they are culpable, common sense tells you not to do such unconscionable acts, even if you are told so. But this has been going on for at least a year, probably longer. We need to go after the whole chain of command who turned a blind eye to these actions, all the way up to Rumsfield. A couple of court martials and everybody else goes free? I pray that won't happen. We can't take the moral high ground anymore. We can't say that we are better than Saddam. At least with Saddam they had torture and electricity and running water. The military should be the last resort, not the first. The military's job is to go in, defeat the enemy, and leave. Not nation build. These actions of torture are systematic and tarnish everything that we stand for. How can we be viewed as liberators anymore? Of course, we haven't been liberators in long time. I mean, did we 'liberate' Kuwait? They still have a dictatorship. We want Iraq to be freer than Kuwait is! Remember the good old days when the worst thing people could say about America was that our President received oral sex?

There is no doubt that those soildiers should face the most severe punishments possible. They have subverted the entire nation with their behavior. As if the whole situation wasn't already going from bad to worst as it was...

[Edited on 5-7-2004 by William One Sac]

As an American I feel shame. And, as a human being I feel shame. I don't buy the arguments that this was just "one of those things" that occurs in war. We Americans have always held ourselves to a higher standard. Maybe this shows that we aren't what all we claim to be. Maybe our society has deteriorated to such an extent that some of us look the other way or rationalize what is basically inhumane treatment of other individuals.
The argument that the Iraquis commited atrocities does noto excuse our atrocities. We talk of being the "beacon of hope and freedom in the world". Well, from where I sit, we aren't living up to that claim.
I'm sickened by what has happened. Nothing can change that.
Now, it's time for someone, in a leadership position, to really step up to the plate and take some responsibility. This doesn't lessen the individual responsibility of thos soldiers involved, but I believe that there was a systemic failure that allowed these horrors to occur.
Call me overemotional, but I want to take pride in my country and I don't feel pride at this moment.
joey

I've recently started believing this philosophy: War IS Terrorism and Terrorism is relative to the one being terrorized.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
A few weeks ago, could you have dreamed of the events we all have seen?

Can you now look away, or seek a rational way to dismiss the fact that we as a nation have been shamed in every possible way?

We are a nation of freedom, a nation of pride, and thoght to have been a nation of "higher moral value"... We have felt the hand of evil, and have shown that we are no longer immune to being seen as that very evil.

Through the actions of a few, we have been hit with the shameful reality that, just because we are the world's super power, and we have all the answers to the world conflicts... we at least are no better than them... we are human beings, with flaws, and unspeakable evils, just as they are.

We are human on all sides... and this war so far has shown at least that.

No matter what is said and done from this day forward, there will be no way to erase this shame.

You can put any spin on it you want, soak up the media hype, or just avoid the topic all together. It will not change what has happened or what has been done.

Everyone is seeking justice now.. but who is just in this war now?

We are the people of this world and that is all of us... on all sides... when you can see the value of all human lives and learn the most basic respect for that life maybe we can find some real answers and move toward peace.. a real and lasting peace.

What the hell did Iraq have to do with the war on terrorism?.. someone asked me once and I made pages of answers.. but now I am willing to admit that going into Iraq had nothing to do with the war on the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11/01.

Shame on them, and now it is shame on us.

The next time we are attacked there will be many more in the middle east and a great deal of the world who will say "they had it coming" or they got what they deserved"

The impact of the recent events of this war will take years to evolve.. and even longer to understand.. we exposed to the world our basic flaw of being human and can become evil in every possible way.

War On Terrorism?

Show me who the real terrorists are now!... better yet show me where they are.

Think! ... a brain is only a waste as long as you are without an open mind.

Gazz

That was the realist thing i've read in a while

I think it's a shame this happened to those poor fellas... and I think the soldiers involved ought to pay dearly for it.

What I find interesting is the naivet�' that people seem to hold concerning war. You think this is the first time, in any country, that this has happened while at war and probably while not at war? I don't believe it for a second, this is just the first time they got caught.

War is a shame. The shame should not have to be pinned on any one individual country, especially one as great as America. War is filthy and appeals to all the base emotions of the human being.

The greatest power each individual has that is ashamed by these actions of their respective country is to question their government about it and perhaps speak out about it.

This is reality and this is what war and separation upholds all across the globe.

In my opinion, there will be more of these types of actions under cover and this sudden display was only allowed, to achieve and stain America's image. There is a purpose for this release of images. Anyway, it is a shame that most will never know what the reality of war is. Keep in mind what this Iraqi torture will turn into in the major media.

I completely agree. There was a motive somewhere, which of course doesn't excuse the behavior. For people to say that this shames us as a people really annoys me. To believe that this is the worst of war, and that ONLY the Americans have ever done something so horrific, is a load of angsty denial.

It is nobodies� choice where they are born. I think this incident has been blown up to damage this seemingly elitist and perfectionistic reputation of America. I don't believe we're all that... and sickness as a society? We'll see. I love living where I live. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.

I am sorry that it happened� but that�s war, folks. You can tell me that I ought to feel shame, or guilt for what happened to them because of my location, and all I can say is why? What hand did I have in it? How could I have prevented it?

There are awful people all over the world, and we�ve just seen a glimpse into the cracking of a human heart.

Originally posted by Bobbo

so you basically think that this is an "eye-for-an-eye" situation?


No I said what happened was bad. Just not as bad as people want to made it out to be. That's all.