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posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:17 PM
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“Separation of Church and State.” These are five little words that, in their misuse, have become the rallying cry of atheists, agnostics, and others who wish to remove God from the public forum. Thomas Jefferson popularized that phrase, and in so doing has become an icon to those who believe that a free expression of faith in God is incompatible with any government institution, practice, program, or official. In this article, we will explore the birth of the “separation” phrase, the establishment clause of the U.S. constitution, and some other lesser-known things that Thomas Jefferson said. The overall picture will be one that is much different than the one painted by American Atheists or Americans United for Separation of Church and State. In June of 2002, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in favor of California atheist Michael Newdow, saying that the United States Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because it contains the words, “under God.” The decision was put on hold, pending a request that the court revisit their ruling. The appeals court refused, and school children in nine Western states will soon be stopped from reciting the pledge in school. The same atheist, Michael Newdow, also filed suit against President Bush. Why? Because the prayer offered by Rev. Franklin Graham at President Bush’s inauguration was offered “in Jesus’ name.” The American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State have successfully sued to have displays of the Ten Commandments removed from government-owned property. They have recently attacked the governor of Alabama for having voluntary Bible studies in his office. They are leading the way in removing prayer and religious symbols from public schools. They are doing all of this under the banner of their favorite catch phrase – separation of church and state. The First Amendment to the constitution addresses, among other things, religious freedom. Commonly known as the “Establishment Clause,” the First Amendment reads as follows: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Legal opinions have extended the meaning of the establishment clause to include not only congress, but also all branches of government. The framers of our constitution did not want the government to favor one religion or denomination above the others, and in so doing, establish a state religion. The Church of England served as an example of what the founding fathers wanted to avoid. They wanted each citizen to have the freedom to worship in whatever way he or she chose, without having religious beliefs or practices dictated to them by the government. You will notice that “separation of church and state” is not mentioned in the first amendment. In fact, it’s not mentioned in the constitution at all. That phrase comes from a letter that founding father and 3rd U.S. President Thomas Jefferson wrote, that reads, in part: “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.” [1] In this letter, Jefferson is actually responding to a letter he had received from the Danbury Baptists of Danbury, CT. They were a minority denomination in that area and were subjected to persecution for their beliefs. They feared that if the government were to adopt a state religion, as it had done in England, that their minority views would be trampled, and they themselves subject to further persecution. Jefferson wrote his letter to them to reassure them that they would remain free to worship as they wished, without needing to fear government interference in their religious beliefs or practices. In fact, he borrowed the term “wall of separation” from famous Baptist minister Roger Williams. We can see that neither the constitution nor Jefferson’s “separation” letter ever intimates that religious expression must be kept out of the public arena. Yet the ACLU and Americans United continue to lift Jefferson up as a sort of historic “town crier” for their cause. They seem convinced that Jefferson would not have permitted any political recognition of anything remotely religious. Are they correct? You be the judge. In 1774, while serving in the Virginia Assembly, Jefferson personally introduced a resolution calling for a Day of Fasting and Prayer. [2] In 1779, as Governor of Virginia, Jefferson decreed a day of “Public and solemn thanksgiving and prayer to Almighty God.” [3] As President, Jefferson signed bills that appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and the armed services. On March 4, 1805, President Jefferson offered “A National Prayer for Peace,” which petitioned: “Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues. Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth. In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.” [4] As is evident, Jefferson’s belief in a separation between church and state did not preclude the very mention of God under state sanction. If he were not our third president, but our forty-third, I suspect Thomas Jefferson would find himself on the receiving end of a lawsuit for his sundry official statements that specifically mention “God” and “Jesus Christ.” Nearly 160 years after Jefferson’s death, in the case of Wallace v. Jaffree, Justice William Rehnquist offered the decision of the United States Supreme Court: “It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history….The establishment clause had been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years.... There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation [between church and state]….The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.” [5] Offering his dissenting opinion on Michael Newdow’s “pledge lawsuit,” 9th Circuit Appeals Court Judge Ferdinand Fernandez said, in part: “My reading of the stelliscript suggests that upon Newdow’s theory of our Constitution, accepted by my colleagues today, we will soon find ourselves prohibited from using our album of patriotic songs in many public settings. “God Bless America” and “America The Beautiful” will be gone for sure, and while use of the first and second stanzas of the Star Spangled Banner will still be permissible, we will be precluded from straying into the third. And currency beware!” [6] Sometimes, I am left to wonder what President Jefferson would think about Michael Newdow’s lawsuits, about the work of the ACLU and Americans United. I think I found just what Jefferson might say on that matter. In 1781, he made the following statement: “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [7] NOTES: [1] Thomas Jefferson, personal letter to Danbury Baptist Association, Danbury, CT, January 1, 1802. [2] Thomas Jefferson, Resolution for a Day of Fasting and Prayer made in the Virginia General Assembly, 1774. [3] Thomas Jefferson, Proclamation Appointing a Day of Thanksgiving and Prayer, November 11, 1779. [4] Thomas Jefferson, as quoted in The Life and Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson (NY: Random House, 1944), p.341. [5] United States Supreme Court. 1985, Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S., 38, 99. [6] United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, 2002, Justice Fernandez dissenting, Newdow v. U.S. Congress et al, No. 00-16423. [7] Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781, p. 237.




posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by Jomina
 


Thanks for those stats, J - so it's about equal then down the middle.

The ones who profess to being Christian should walk the walk instead of just talking the talk.

Our morals, ethics and very fiber of decencies are going down the tubes at a rapid rate.




posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by nomorecruelty

The same as they are trying to do with the gay propaganda - they work on the notion that if they say it enough, eventually people will believe it. And they count on people not checking their facts and sources.




Pretty much knew somewhere in this thread you would say something about "gay agenda". Man you're obsessed with that lol brings to mind the old phrase "what we hate the most in others, is what we hate the most in ourselves".

Even in a thread having nothing to do with gays, you bring it up, before anyone else.



Sure, most people in the world will generally blithely accept something if it's told to them by someone they consider an "expert." But that goes for all sides of every issue, doesn't it? Including the christian agenda.


And I've already shown you that most of the makeup of the government for many years has been christian based. When shown that, you knee jerk the same response we always hear from people who have the agenda you have... "they're not REALLY christians".

So where does the line get drawn? You were shown quotes and know that from the history of our founding fathers, they were deists, NOT christian, and this has been proven time and time again. Even to a treaty stating FLAT OUT that our country is not founded on Christian doctrines.


Now you claim that the country was founded on christianity, and yet the people who have held the reigns of power here have been christian based for many years... when shown that, you claim they're not really christian.

What the heck? are you just here to flame bait and feel empowered?



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by Jomina
 


Someone else raised the gay issue a page or so back - I responded.

And the tally looks to be pretty much half and half - but I still question the ones that claim to be Christian yet vote against anything related to God or the Bible.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by Jomina
 


Someone else raised the gay issue a page or so back - I responded.

And the tally looks to be pretty much half and half - but I still question the ones that claim to be Christian yet vote against anything related to God or the Bible.




Just re-read through every post on this thread and nowhere was gay mentioned til you did.. .just sayin.


To be fair, there's a lot of things that aren't in the bible in any way, that leaders these days have to face, and they have to deal with the issues, when it comes to things that DO relate directly to things in the bible, that not everyone BELIEVES in the bible.

Therefore, should not be subjected to biblical things.

If you feel they are wrong in that decision, work to vote them out.


But the fact remains that this nation has been run BY christians for a very long time now, because it was the most prevalent religion in the US for a long time. It is not anymore, and that's why you're seeing a change in demographics, as WELL as a change in the ways the laws are being made.


I don't agree with all of them either. Seperate thread. Just saying, not everyone is subject to your rules, and not everyone is going to abide by them just because you say that's hwo it should be.

I wouldn't expect everyone to follow mine, either, but I'm not going to throw a fit about it.

This nation, as has been shown to you in this thread as well as others out there, was NOT founded on christianity. Some aspects of christianity are THERE, yes.. the generic - all - religions - generally - have - them aspects. but not specifically christianity.

To claim otherwise is a twisted fallacy and lying's supposed to be bad, right?



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:07 PM
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I still hold true to my views and thread.


Not a one liner.





posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by Jomina
 


The phrase still isn't in the Constitution as most people have been brainwashed to believe - and it's the ACLU, and orgs such as them, that have worked overtime to try to push that lie onto the general public and media.

The same as they are trying to do with the gay propaganda - they work on the notion that if they say it enough, eventually people will believe it. And they count on people not checking their facts and sources.



And you are correct - I did bring that up first - I stand corrected.

My bad.




posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by rubbertramp
founding father quotes, ignored in video

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785



Uuuuuuuum back on track - how about the OP address these posts - this thread has been TOTALLY DEBUNKED - stop ignoring the blinding reality of the truth.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by rubbertramp
forgive me for any repeats.



George Washington (George Washington was president when the treaty was signed at Tripoli (1797), but by the time it reached the Senate for ratification John Adams was president.) "As the government of the United States of America is NOT IN ANY SENSE FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt the harmony existing between the two countries." "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." John Adams "But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, 2000 Years of Disbelief--John A. Haught "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams Benjamin Franklin "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758 "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758 "Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin Thomas Jefferson "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on a man."--Thomas Jefferson "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281 "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises."--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808 "No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, Elementary school Act, 1817, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305 James Madison "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795 "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught Abraham Lincoln "Christianity is not my religion."--A. Lincoln


[edit on 14-7-2009 by rubbertramp]


And again - if its too inconvenient for you to respond to these fantastic posts by rubbertramp then I will simply keep quoting them until you have the common decency to respond to what are unequivocal rebuttals to your entire premise - totally debunked again.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 09:07 PM
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Didn't think so - good work to rubbertramp for totally destroying this thread - great to see the issue is finally settled.

QED.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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Should be noted, most of the founding fathers were Christian.

Specifically, some were Protestant, three were Catholic, some were Methodist, and many other denominations.
Several were against organized religion, and many were Deists.
It wasn't a united Christian group, by any means.

The First Amendment was to preclude the government from declaring a State religion, or showing preference to any on religion over the other.
Based on the thirty minutes of news I get, I'd say that that's been effectively ignored by the Government, and much of America at large, as there seems to be a prejudice in favor of Christianity.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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sorry, i was hoping for a back and forth. the fathers actually wrote alot of things. books upon books, poetry, manuscripts, constitutions, letters, no e-mail or cell phones, so wagons of letters.
it would seem some went back and forth in their own minds as far as what they really believe.
kinda' like i do.



posted on Jul, 26 2009 @ 05:06 AM
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reply to post by nomorecruelty
 


im sorry, but ben frank, abe linc, george wash, tom ed, and many more were deists, not christian.



posted on Oct, 10 2009 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by nomorecruelty
 



People should honestly take the time to read the Constitution and understand what it actually says about religion.


Yes, they really should!

From the constitution itself:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion


Here is what Thomas Jefferson has to say about the first amendment and what it means in regards to separation of church and state, one of our founding fathers BTW who happened to be a deist, not a Christian.

LINK


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.


You Christians need to stop attempting to rewrite history to fit your own beliefs and agenda's. It's offensive, insulting, pathetic and disgusting. It's bad enough that you've attempted to kill off as many non-believers as you possibly could get away with. You people are going to far.

Your failure to learn history and your ability to read what you want to see does not supersede what actually happened and I don't care how much you want to kick and scream in protest about it. My country is not a Christian country and congress has no constitutional right to make it one, and for that I am proud that our government has since it's inception remained a secular government free from the irrationalities of religious thought. Especially from Christians who follow a false messiah, failing to heed God's word about doing so.



posted on Oct, 10 2009 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by nomorecruelty
 


Christianity played a big part. That was the popular religion at the time (and I think still the most popular to this day, maybe second to Islam)

But there still remains the fact that: It is clear the founding fathers did not intend to favor christianity. If they did, then they would have said so in the constitution.

Then there is the fact that some of the more well known founding fathers were deists.

But ultimately it is a pointless debate. Religion and politics should be kept separated. If you want to see what happens when you combine the two take a good look at some middle eastern countries.

There is a reason they should be kept separate, ethically.

Not everyone has the same beliefs. Their beliefs are private.

But politics, politics affects everyone.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 09:40 AM
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reply to post by audas
 


audas,

Your posts appear on the surface to be reasonable...logical and intelligent but once one knows some history it becomes clear that your posts are none of the above.All you are doing here is stumping people who are not well versed in history or any historical knowledge.
It is obvious by your posts that you as well are missing some historical knowledge.

Observe here this pattern...


"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816


Suggest you read John Foxe and his "Book of Martyrs." a very interesting read. This book details many of the atrocities of the Roman Church against Christians. Not only the Roman Church but also the Lutherans and Anglicans as well.

There is an assumption made in history very often and it is given a free pass by "logic and reason" to play through as Christian when it is in fact not Christian at all. That erroneous assumption is that Rome is Christian. It never was nor never will be Christian.
For no Christian Church has any authorization to operate in the manner that Rome has historically operated...not only by secular historical records but also by the historical records of Rome herself. The usage of the words "Holy Mother Church" should be enough to tell one versed in history what it is with which one is dealing.

This assumption...is that Rome by the non virtue of its size..represents all of Christianity carte blanche,...by default. This is in error and not true..and never will be. This poor tack is how so many non believers, atheists, agnostics, and secularists get over on Believers. This simply because so many Believers are poorly versed not only in the Bible..but also in History..even Bible history. Sad but true.

Rome is a very poor and sorry example of Christianity and is even a counterfeit of Christian. Yet so many use Rome as an example to represent Christianity
The ability to spot counterfeits is key to knowing the difference.
I will be take this line of thinking further in my post...counterfeits.


"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson


One thing is known by those well versed in history and religious systems..particularly in occult religions. The origins of the cross are not from Christianity but from pagan occult religions. The cross was known to the romans, to those in India and other nations before the Christian Era. This is known historical informations.
There are no symbols for a Christian. No crosses, no fishes, no birds etc etc. There is only the Holy Spirit...and there is no symbol for this.
Once again many Believers are never taught this ..even by their pastors. Many havent a clue and their preachers/pastors are not teaching them the "Whole Council of God." This is not accidental.


"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor


Here we have an example of the very error of which I am speaking. As if speaking of Rome as an authority on anything Christian. Rome is not Christian. This is historically demonstrable.

There is no instruction for any Christian Church to carry out an inquisition or to kill off Believers in another faith. Yet we have Rome doing exactly that. There is no such Biblical instruction to do so yet we see so many peoples by logic and reason using Rome as an example to represent and cast a shadow on all Christian beliefs by this illogic and ill reason.
What Rome is ...is a counterfeit of Christian, The historical example of such dealings is from Pagan origins...to kill off ones competition in this manner. It does not come from Christianity and the New Testament.
The Christian example from the New Testament is to separate from this type of conduct. "Come out from amongst them and be ye separate."
Yet so many out here by logic and reason would falsely use Rome to represent all of Christianity by Default.
And ignorant Christians/Believers sit mute at your examples because they are unknowledgeable...even in their own Bibles.... much less any history..even Biblical History. Astonishing but true.


"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803


I have taken the liberty of putting together these two quotes out of order in which they are listed to make a point here. I will return to the others of which I skipped over to make this point here.

Notice the usage of the word "priesthood" For what is known by those who study religions ..particularly occult/pagan religions is that many religions in and of this world have priesthoods. Even Pagan/Occult religions have priesthoods and even women in positions of power and authority.
What is also known about Occult/pagan religions is that they too have trinitys. Astonishing to me that most Christians and Believers do not know this history or informations.

What is interesting as a record of history is the concept of "Divine Right of Kings" In the western world this was put to rest by the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell in England with the beheading of King Charles 1st. in 1649 over a hundred years before the founding of this country. This religious dispute began with dissent in the English Parliament over the concept of the limits of a kings power and authority, wound up in a civil war, and was put to rest with the beheading of Charles 1st.
A kings power and authority was Limited and not Divine Right...from God and therefore not unlimited. The king was accountable for what he did or did not do.
This is a very important milestone in history because this marks the first time recorded in history where an ordinary people had executed their king. Now kings had been killed by other royalty in plots, schemes, machinations etc etc. But never by an ordinary people. Very bad news for the king club.

This is what Adams and Jefferson refer to in the Priesthood. A priesthood used and misused to support Divine Right Kings and their shakedown of the people of nations, The ability of people in nations to accumulate wealth and property because of the Divine Right of Kings feudal systems of confiscation which existed in most nations between the Royalty and priesthoods. This is sometimes referred to as the tendency of governments to "mischief.'

In some histories this is also called "the craft" though this line of thought is carefully hidden from us today...hence it's occult mark. Jefferson is correct in the usage of the word "craft" here. It is also not accidental that this is hidden from us in our educations of today.

This too is obvious because of our tendency today...without the knowledgeable hand of religion amongst our peoples and the return of systems of "confiscation" of our wealth and property by non religious governments. We are returning to the olde systems of confiscation of wealth and property by governments claiming to be secular and non religious. ....or are they really secular and non religious? I contend that they are occult and deeply religious by their pattern of operation. Their true religion is hidden, concealed frome us, even esoteric. I know this because we are rapidly going back to the confiscation of wealth just as was done in "Divine Right of Kings " nations.

I contend that ..."Ye shall know them by their fruits."
From Matthew 7:16.

I also contend that..."
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."
From Hosea 4:6

Notice also here in this Old Testament verse the end .."I shall also forget thy children. Very appropriate and telling to those of us with a conscience...and not just logical reasonable expediency.

I will continue on my next post as I am running out of characters at the bottom of the page.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by audas
 


continued from my previous post..


"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.


Very interesting here... Notice that Thomas Jefferson swears on the altar of God.
Now Jefferson is correct in that one must needs be very careful about the Clergy.

I have a very old book somewhere entitled.."Separation of Church and State in Virginia." This is an olde and difficult book to read though not thick in dimensions. However in the olde style the print is very small and thus somewhat difficult to read. What is of interest is the explanations of the attempts made in several of the colonies to make a state run authorized religion as is the Anglican religion in England or the Roman religion in many nations. One thing is also clear in this book...the founders did not want the Roman Religion to be the state authorized religion. For the founders most certainly knew of the history of this sect and did not approve of the historical mischief of governments under Rome.

For our founders wisely knew of the mischief done under the dogma of "Divine Right of Kings" with the clergy hiding in the pocket of the Kings or vice versa. It was historically a very nice, convenient, fleecing or shakedown arrangement by government.

Be Warned here. It is not accidental that these concepts are missing from your public educations.

By the way...who pays for your public educations....government!!?? Can this lack of historical knowledge be accidental?? I dont think so.

How many posters here on ATS/BTS even make mention of the dogma of "Divine Right of Kings" while constantly spouting off on and on and on about "Separation of Church and State??"
Once you know the history and can contrast "Separation of Church and State" with the dogma of "Divine Right of Kings" ..you know know more about the reasons why our founders rightly were concerned about this use and misuse of power in the hands of religion to fleece, to confiscate, to shakedown the wealth and property of a people in a nation.

The problem we have is that we are rapidly returning to this system of shakedown, fleecing, and confiscation of a peoples wealth and property in a system claiming to have separation of church and state. A system which claims to be "secular" in nature.
I contend that by inspecting their fruits ..that they are lying and deceiving the public and doing so deliberately and purposefully.
I also suspect that we are being lied to and deceived in this by the dumbing down of our people through public education which has become nothing more than an emotional train wreck. A television/movie education in lieu of the ability to understand facts and pattern recognition in history and events.


"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814


Notice something very interesting here. First a warning once again about the priesthood being hostile to religion. I agree with this statement. But notice that Jefferson also states that the priesthood has perverted the purest religion ever preached to man in mystery and jargon.

Thus Jefferson believes that there is a pure religion..not an absence of religion or God.

Notice also in a previous quote about the Platonic mysticisms in a letter from Jefferson to Adams. What is being spoken here is about the ancient mystery religions...pagan mystery religions. What is also not known my many ..even by Believers ...is that many of the pagan religions had trinitys.
Jefferson goes on to say that by keeping these religions and their dogmas secret/mysterious...it was a safer engine for their purposes. Once again very telling and also the very fingerprint of occult mystery religions. Many of these religions are still with us today. Many in updated forms but still carrying on the ancient traditions and purposes.

There are two primary systems of thought in logic and reason in the West..

The logic and reason of Aristotle and the other of Plato.

The third one is the logic and reason or Wisdom of the Bible and God's Word.
Which of these three do you think this world and the god of this world wants us to stay away from in guiding our thinking and behavior today???

Be Warned!!! Be Aware!!


"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"


This is a very misleading statement and quote if one does not know much history ..even secular history.

Notice what has been left out of this quote..even by Jefferson himself...even by those who would post such a quote.?? What is missing is that this very fingerprint also applies to pagan nations in history. What is known also but often avoided deliberately is that in pagan nations millions of men, women, and children have been killed, tortured, burnt at the stake, fined, imprisoned etc.etc. et al.
Once you know this history it becomes very stark and telling as to what is missing from a post and quote like this.
What you are looking at in this quote in modern times is the history, behavior, and track record of Communist nations and how they treat their peoples. Is it not??
The facts are that you do not have to go back that far in a time warp to know that this fingerprint of human abuses is happening in our times. Times of secular Humanistic intelligence, logic, wisdom.
Now who is lying and deceiving who here??? Think it through carefully.
Once again...do Christians have any such authority to conduct themselves in this manner from the New Testament instructions for the conduct of a church??
You will find no instructructions to carry out a crusade nor an inquisition or any other type of chaos. It is not there.
Any church which conducts itself in this manner is not conducting itself as Christian. You will however find this template in Pagan dogmas and religions. It is not difficult to understand once you know the history and pattern of operation. By their fruits will ye know them.
Are you getting a clue as to why history is such a poorly taught subject today...even Biblical history??
You might even accidentally start thinking on your own and outside authorized arenas.

Learn to become a fruit inspector.


"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787


Be very careful here. For here Jefferson shows his eastern pagan diestic education by the usage of the term "her." Also by the appeal to reason and logic...as if it is totally wisdom.
The Christian dogma is to fear God..not men. And be careful of men of reason and logic. For many even here would use reason and logic to deceive you in many things. Reason and logic is fine properly applied. Just have enough knowledge to check up on reason and logic and be very careful of people "appearing" to use reason and logic to appeal to and control your baser passions. This misuse so popular today is that "shakedown" of which I speak. It is nothing more than the abuse and misuse of the public for power and votes also so popular today. It is mob mentality.
One thing about our founders is clear. They did not approve of mob undisciplined or mob mentality. They believed in discipline, education, and thinking. And religion properly used is discipline.


"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810


There is alot of truth to this quote above by Jefferson but you very seldom see or hear unbelievers or people of logic and reason tell you why and how this is. Nor do you see or hear them tell you of the branch of Believers who did not go this route and are still here today teaching and preaching His Word in obedience to THe Great Reformer...the Lord Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins.
This lack of explanation is how a counterfeit system is passed on to us by default. By our lack of knowledge as outlined in Hosea 4:6. This is also how our children are coming out to be spiritually dead people...forgotten as also outlined in Hose 4:6.
Once you know and understand..and keep the Faith...you will catch this lack of knowledge very quickly in and all around you....every day.

continued again on the next post..



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by cbianchi513
 


Freedom OF, yes, not freedom FROM - as the ACLU and other orgs have tried to convince people of.

People go around misquoting that entire issue and never even check the Constitution to see what it actually says.

Those are the people that the nwo are going to love.



Also, people tend to forget that means all religions. Too many people believe that its "not freedom from" only when Christianity is being promoted.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by audas
 


returning to my last quote above for further clarification


"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810


When you know the history of men...going back milleniums...you will see what Jefferson is quoting above as what was to become the dogma of
"Divine Right of Kings." This is very clear and what is the basis of the fleecing arrangements of which I am speaking. To fleece a people of their property, their labors, their very souls. This is the history of most Feudal governments...including Communism and socialism which are also Feudal in their natures.
And Feudal governments with Divine Right Rulers have thier origins in paganism....going way back historically before the Christian era and also before the Hebrew nation we know as Ancient Israel.
Teach yourself such that you do not allow others to deceive you about history or the nature or men or governments.


"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785


This is only a half truth. What is known in history is that when a people ran into this trend in religions becoming organizations and institutions as such ...certain members began to break away and form their own churchs. This because they did not like the corruption of these "nicolaitians."
What Madison here is speaking about is the large denominational churchs..Rome, Church of England, Even the Lutherans who were also to carry on some of the fingerprint of Rome.
What is not known is of churches which never were in the Roman, Anglican, or any other pattern and were from the River Jordan and John the Baptist unto today. For these churches never sought to become large organizatioins..but remained instead small living organisms.
One of these smaller groups of churchs which suffered persecution at the hands of Rome in Europe and was to leave ..is today called Amish. Mennonites are another. These groups were persecuted by Rome in the inquisitions. Another group persecuted in Europe were called Albigensins, another Waldensens.
Puritans were to leave England after the return of the king Charles 2nd and the persecutions which followed there. Some of these same Puritans left England earlier than this and founded Jamestown in 1607, about 30 miles north west of me here in Virginia.

These peoples do not seek to join large bodies or become part of a large church organization or association. They remain small and independent and for a reason...such that they do not become nicolaitian in nature.
Once you become organized as such you become subject to men and easily counterfeit doctrine and dogma.


Not quite on track audas. Much of what you post looks initially logical and reasonable but it is not once one sees a bigger picture. To do this one must know certain facts in history.



Someone mentioned the gay issue. I am going to show or demonstrate the facet missing from our knowlege and history which shows the origins of his issue..though it is not limited to the gays but the non gays or straights as well.

The Biblical position ..both Olde and New Testaments is that no one under such a dicipline is to define who and what they are by thier sexuality. EVER!! It just isnt done by a thinking moral people. EVER!!

It is however..done constantly by a pagan religious people.

Anyone knowing any history at all would know this. Understand now??

I am not saying people do not have sexuality. I am saying sexuality is not who or what we are.

Yet we have this one group of peoples..homosexuals..who want and intend to force legislation down our moral ethical fiber ...based on thier sexual orientation. You have to go to school and be educated into stupidity to not recognize this nonsense.
People are so much more than sexuality. Only public education of the pagan type can dumb people down so far they no longer recognize this as nonsense while they go about on thier emotional jags.

However...to be fair about this...heterosexuals are also heavily bombarded today..if not more so than the homosexual community with pagan sexuality and debauchery..in order to define themselves by thier sexuality. What a stupid bunch of people.

Are some of you catching on yet as to the institutional nature of stupidity.
Especially in the hands of politicians who are financing our public education systems in order to groom, program, educate, and indoctrinate the next generation of overly emotional, train wreck, voters??
Are some of you sufficiently wise and intelligent enough to connect the dots here? You are being had on this issue. And your leaders in hidden pagan templates are leading the charge. And your leaders finance public education and social engineers to indoctrinate you in this template..without you even being aware there are other ways of looking at it. No competition allowed. Are some of you catching no yet??

Bewarned. This issue is about grooming programmable, predictable, malliable voters, particularly in high electorial vote states where most of this group of voters dwell.

Abortion is exactly the same template..about grooming programmable, predictable, malliable voters in high electorial vote states. You can gaurantee the outcome of an election ...local, state, and federal by this method of takinig advantage of train wreck, emotional peoples on sexual issues like these.

People are so much more than sexuality.

Are you catching on yet?? This is not natural law..it is naturally stupid.
You have to go to school to get this stupid. People left to thier own devices are not this naturally stupid. Hetero and homo both.

What do you think our founders would think of the emotional train wreck people abounding today and the politicians taking advantage of them for votes?? Think carefully on this one ..for your educators and media, looking out for, you will not allow you this knowledge.



Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 13-10-2009 by orangetom1999]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 12:30 PM
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Separation of Church and State.

I don't believe there is much thinking going on here today by either Believers or unbelievers on this issue.

So many in posts like this hold this up as a badge of honor when in practice every day ..it is a badge of dishonor and disgrace.

The amount of disinformation and ignorance on the workings of this is astonishing both on the part of Believers and unbelievers. They are both losers on this issue.

I strongly suggest some of you ..believers and unbelievers find out how many of the Churches out here have tax numbers. Most I believe are filed as a 501c corporation. A corporation is a creature of the state. This means that such a corporation has no separation of church and state. Get it now?

Both Believer and unbelievers are incredibly stupid on this issue.

You have Churches out here receiving a tax subsidy on the part of government to the Churches...by the non virtue of this tax number. This is not separation of church and state. It is the illusion or facade of separation.
When people take off their taxes..their giving to the Churches ...this is a tax subsidy by the government. A price support. The government is not separate. What is just as bad...your preachers, priests, pastors do not mention this to their flocks.

The Government and the Churches are in bed together. No separation.
What on this earth are some of you thinking here?? This is not honorable..it is a lie. An out right lie.

You have to go to public school to get this stupid. Ordinary people left to their own devices are not this stupid. Did they teach you this in public school. If not..why did they not teach you this???
Don't you think it is important to know the nature of a lie?? I do!!

The government and the Churches are both lying to you on this issue.
If the Churches step out of line and teach and preach something not authorized by government...they are subject to being audited.
This is not separation but control.
I know of only a handful of Churches which are not filed as state corporations and do not have corporation numbers/tax numbers.

Are any of you catching on yet.??

Wake up out there and think. Don't just emote.

This issue is a lie and a counterfeit. Do you know the name of the counterfeiter...by name??? I do.
It says "In God we Trust" on the moneys. When and why did our government switch to the god of this world? When did they switch secretly to the father of lies and not tell anyone they did this. Is this not what the Hebrew leadership did privily and not tell anyone they had done this. Do we have Pharisees in government...in positions of leadership??
Did the Hebrews, by 70AD, not lose their very nation because of this lie??

Think on it.

Thanks,
Orangetom






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