i'm personally tired of this christian society talk. i was having a conversation the other day with a local militia member who was talking the same way. i told him that my beliefs are, that no matter what the founding fathers thought, they were bright enough to add 'freedom of religion'. knowing that they could not hold the country together if they excluded non-christians. like my family.
he was surprised when i told him that i figured we were on the same team till after the revolution, and people like him tried to force america to accept a 'christian society'. i told him at that point the second revolution will start, and that i will be his enemy.

i just scanned through the website. please show me where it says 'christian' anything in the constitution-bill of rights.
otherwise, what he doesn't mention is that the founding fathers practiced christianity by personal choice, while keeping it out of thier political views of a new nation.
about the only thing i wouldn't argue, is that the 10 commandments are not a bad place to begin. but, these are human instinct, not just christian values.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by rubbertramp]

It sounds as if you didn't watch the video? The answers to the questions you are asking are detailed, and quoted, in the vid.

And I'm not trying to beat a dead horse bringing this up as a thread - I posted it only because I have heard sooooooo many people recently talking about how this country wasn't founded on Christianity - and this video, and information, debunks their debunking.

maybe you didn't understand my reply. i'm not arguing the point that the founding fathers were self proclaimed christians, and the fact that they created this nation using their religious beliefs as a base. then adding that freedom of religion is a basic right.
but, like i said, many of these ideas are in the christian bible along with being part of many other religious beliefs. if you, and the guy in the video, i watched some of it, and scanned some of it, want to believe that living in a free nation, while following common human law like the commandments is exclusively a christian idea, then i and i believe the founding fathers would disagree with you.
i'd still like to see where the founding fathers expressed their strictly christian beliefs in the constitution-bill of rights. they used their beliefs as a base, and then said anyone else with these similar human rights in mind is welcome to join us.
do you believe that only christian minded people should be in congress?

by the way, that vid is long and boring, please express more of your personal beliefs than just using him as an example.
i tried a quick search for a transcript of his preaching, but have yet to find one..

just caught your seperation link. not part of my conversation. not in the constitution. not important, freedom of religion is .

[edit on 14-7-2009 by rubbertramp]

[edit on 14-7-2009 by rubbertramp]

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
School text books, television documentaries, newspaper editorials and articles have jumped on the bandwagon to claim that America was not founded on Christianity or Christian leaders.
...

If the US was founded on Christianity, please tell me where to find these things in the bible:

* separation of powers
* the office of president
* congress
* the concept of trial by jury of one's peers
* freedom of religion
* a judiciary
* voting

The guy isn't a preacher - he's a historian - but the link to his website (wallbuilders) is included in my first post.


If the video is boring to you then you have probably never read the Constitution either?

Again - if anyone wants the hard copy proof, watch the video - hard proof that our country was founded on Christian beliefs.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty


The guy isn't a preacher - he's a historian - but the link to his website (wallbuilders) is included in my first post.


If the video is boring to you then you have probably never read the Constitution either?

Again - if anyone wants the hard copy proof, watch the video - hard proof that our country was founded on Christian beliefs.

like i said, our country was founded on christian beliefs as a base, and the founding fathers were bright enough to then include all others who agreed with these simple human rights and instincts.
i'm not gunna' argue about things in the vid, if there's a transcript i'll argue a few quotes.

so, i asked you a very simple question.
do you believe that non-christians should be members of congress?

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
I wish Christian minded people were the only ones in Congress - this planet wouldn't be in the mess it's in now if that were true.

LOLOLOL!!!! I really hope you are being sarcastic here. George Bush???? Dick Cheney????? Those are the people who would make the world less of a mess????

People who believe that this dude is the creator of all??:

""You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD."

"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened."

"It is a day when the LORD's anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! "Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground.""

"The descendants of Joseph attacked the town of Bethel, and the LORD was with them. They sent spies to Bethel (formerly known as Luz), who confronted a man coming out of the city. They said to him, "Show us a way into the city, and we will have mercy on you." So he showed them a way in, and they killed everyone in the city except for this man and his family."

Ya, those are the people I want in power... Yeesh.

founding father quotes, ignored in video

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

forgive me for any repeats.



George Washington (George Washington was president when the treaty was signed at Tripoli (1797), but by the time it reached the Senate for ratification John Adams was president.) "As the government of the United States of America is NOT IN ANY SENSE FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt the harmony existing between the two countries." "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." John Adams "But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, 2000 Years of Disbelief--John A. Haught "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams Benjamin Franklin "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758 "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758 "Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin Thomas Jefferson "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on a man."--Thomas Jefferson "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281 "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises."--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808 "No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, Elementary school Act, 1817, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305 James Madison "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795 "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught Abraham Lincoln "Christianity is not my religion."--A. Lincoln


[edit on 14-7-2009 by rubbertramp]

Completely unrelated, but how's this for a weird paradox, Britain has a state-religion and the monarch is known as 'Defender of the faith', yet we have Charles Darwin on our £10 notes.

America, where there is supposed to be a seperation of church and state, has 'In God We Trust' written on its banknotes.

NOT attacking anyone, just pointing out an interesting observation.