Want to debate Homosexuality, Religion or Race intelligently on ATS? Don't waste your time!

Your right. Misdirection is a key element of the NWO. While I think there is value in resisting insanity, it definitely dissipates and distracts from more significant issues. On the other hand, not sure what is to be accomplished on ATS. A public forum is hardly the place to plan decisive action and partnering up strangers is a formula for disaster. ATS is entertaining and I like to think I'm at least trying to help other human beings get out from other the clouds, but beyond that I haven't a clue what ATS is good for.

it took some sort of interest in controversy to bring ANY of us here.
(there. we all have common ground.)

that being said, is there any wonder as to why the bickering?

its like two armies mustering for a war, final victory results in stars & flags. or like two rival teams having a pep rally to see which has more pride in their school (of thought). the polarization is staggering. such is the nature of debate, it is a competion after all. intellectual athleticism. ego jocks. without at least two sides there is no debate.

insults and personal attacks are the recourse of the weaker mind. if we can all agree on that then we will have more common ground.

i look at it like a party. everyone wants to have a good time. not everyone has the same idea of what that means.

if we can't discuss drug related topics like adults or have a separate forum for "R" rated topics then perhaps there should not be discussion of sexuality, religion, or race. because, really... if we can't handle drug talk how would we ever be able to rationally discuss something more ingrained than addiction?

it is futile. in a conspiracy based discussion forum all things will come into question. STRONG claims of conspiracy can easily be asserted based on race, religion, sexuality, and drugs.

this is also a STRONG argument for freedom of speech. you take away one liberty and soon another will fall into question.

10-4

I like that television show called "30 Days". How does that old proverb go? "Walk a mile in someones shoes"? It is pretty cool if you have never seen it. A guy tries different stuff for a month. Like living on minimum wage for an entire month. No greater teacher than first hand experience. Then again often times one bad experience can lead to prejudice about an entire category of person or belief system.

Originally posted by KSPigpen
So...T&C aside....we know we have to try harder...we have to expand our puny little brains...how do we do it? A few people told me to meditate, but I don't think that's going to 'fix' every one else. :p and we all know it's THEM that make ME mad.

Yeah I'm not sure meditation is the answer to ATSers not being able to debate these topics rationally, despite what the enlightened ones tell you !

It amy calm us down a bit though!

There are a lot of gay people on ATS.

I think it would be a great idea to give gays their own forum to discuss gay issues without them having to listen to people who don't share their views, and therefore can't add anything of interest to their threads.

There are gay politics, gay laws, gay parenting and so on, that need a separate forum where these topics can be discussed intelligently by gay people or people strictly pro gay.

Edit: Wrong Thread.

[edit on 15/7/2009 by Dark Ghost]

I give you credit for still having hope enough to even raise the issue.
Personally, I've just moved on to enjoying the summer and only come on here on rare occasions now.
The negativity was just too wearing - and tiring.
My "MY ATS" page is blank - no threads.

The "Sigil" thread was probably the only one that had a real positive feel to it 90% if the time.

Cheers mate. Maybe I'll check this place out again in the winter months when there's not much else to do.

reply to post by KSPigpen


I very much like with this poster had to say.

I think its the very nature of open-mindedness that's the issue here. Much like the ideal of "faith", open mindedness is more a concept than a practical, applicable "thing". I mean, it's a lovely concept and a noble one, but let's face it, quite unrealistic. From the moment we step out of the womb, our environment begins to shape our intellect and how we view the world around us and that process continues til the day we die. But by the time we come to forums like this we've already formed very strong ways/processes of thinking, approaching problems, etc. that are NOT going to be swayed or moved much by some words read on a forum of public opinion.

I think one rule of thumb for me is (and yup, I'm waaaaay guilty of being particularly passionate (aka: narrow-minded) on a number of topics) that if I go into it understanding that:

a) I'm not going to change thoughts and/or behavior or change anyone's views

b) I'm not likely to change my thoughts or views (narrow minded yes, but realistic)

c) I am curious enough to want to hear what others have to say on the topic, or what evidence they might offer (sometimes what I read may set me, at most, to asking myself new questions or considering a new approach to a topic - but the process of actually "changing" over from one view to another takes time) More often than not, it will be personal experiences, or something in ourselves that we are SEEKING to change or a new perspective on that leads us to SEARCH out related topics.

d) I recognize that every other person posting/espousing their views on a topic is no different than me EXCEPT for their views and/or opinions and this thought alone tends to humble me quite a bit. That's a good thing!

Then my take away is a lot less angst-y, and the likelihood that I will start a "war" with someone else on a topic that is particularly meaningful or upsetting to me is dulled down quite a bit.

Now, am I able to exercise the above steps EVERY time. Nope. I'm human and I'm very vocal, so I mess up. But it doesn't mean I don't try to 'stay the course' or correct myself along the way.

reply to post by kiwifoot



Actually I will disagree, I have been on ATS for a while now and have never used the Alert button until this last couple of weeks when a new poster got out of hand. You know what it worked, a MOD came by and deleted about a half dozen posts with the standard warnings, and that person got a double warning too.

Whereas I had tolerated his garbage posts before, and the MODS didn't do anything.
Once I used the alert button it worked great, and furthered my conviction that the MODS at ATS are the best on the internet.


My only suggestion is don't cry wolf so to speak with the "Alert" function.
Trolling, insulting posts get axed, off topic posts that distract get deleted too, but if it's just a heated disagreement they let it play out.

[edit on 15-7-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Most gay people are victims of sexual violence in one way or another.

Ya, prove it.
Oh that'as right you can't. BUt I"m sure you'll just keep on cl;aimi;ng that as truth anyway.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


It's not the system that has got me down. The ALERT button works, the Mods are doing their jobs, successfully I might add, it's US.

It's the fact we cannot hold an intelligent debate (for the most part) on these subjects.

Do you know where I'm coming from?

I personally would like to see seperate sections for religion in particular.
In my short time on ATS I have noticed that some threads get hyjacked into religious debates when they didn't need to.

Originally posted by kiwifoot
In the last few weeks I've seen some of the most outrageous posts imaginable on ATS.

Guess what?

They were all either discussing Race, Homosexuality or Religion.


Are ATS'ers incapable of having an inelligent debate with regards to these subjects? Are we just too narrow minded to discuss these topics?
Are these subjects just so personal that it's impossible to be objective, balanced and rational?

Every single thread involving one of these topics just decends into a farce of tit for tat posts where the ATSers pick at comments and posts, ignoring the real issues involved.

What can we do about this guys?

How can we stay focused when these topics arise for debate?





[edit on 13-7-2009 by kiwifoot]

For a site with so many open minded intelligent members, there are an = amount of close minded ignorant members....

I guess the Universe is fully balanced after all.....lol :-)


You definitely have a point though.


I have made a few not so nice comments on here.......they were mostly directed to the individuals you speak of though, but still wrong non the less..

Originally posted by KSPigpen

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Are these subjects just so personal that it's impossible to be objective, balanced and rational?

[edit on 13-7-2009 by kiwifoot]

I know I'm guilty of taking things way too personally. I chalk mine up to intense programming, compounded with the difficulty of expanding ones open-mindedness.

I was taught from a very young age that some things were just wrong. It wasn't right, but it's what happened. It a heck of a chore going back through all that garbage trying to throw away what doesn't apply anymore.

It's not coincidence that it's the more personal, more deeply ingrained beliefs and teachings that are the most difficult for me to accept someone else's view on.

It's a huge collection of personal journeys. Someone who is bull-headed is just as deserving of tolerance as someone endorsing an alternate lifestyle or religion. At least I hope so, because the bull-headed one is usually me.

Also when your beliefs get challenged there are mainly 2 types of people or responses.

1.) People realize that what the other person is saying definitely contradicts what they have been taught to believe in and they keep and open mind and actually think about the fact that some of what they believe in could be 100% wrong or false.
They accept this, learn from it, and use that experience to challenge other beliefs they have and to learn more from life.

2.) They ignorantly dismiss your claims even if you had 100% proof they were wrong it is just too troublesome for them to even ponder that their whole way of thinking is flawed.
They would have to first admit fault in their ideas, thoughts, and beliefs , and sometimes that is just too difficult.

Within this group there are 2 people.

2a.) They don't care about any evidence or proof, they are going to believe what they want no matter what and they won't and refuse to change, even if what they think makes no logical, scientific, or even spiritual sense. These people tend to spit their beliefs upon anyone without regards to thinking " does this person really care what i have to say ? "

2b.) These people realize that some may be wrong but they just choose to supress it rather than lash out at those who have different beliefs. They keep it to themselves and while that is polite to others, it does not help them further their understanding about these different beliefs.

It breaks down to more than that but that is kind of a rough estimate by me.

reply to post by va1963


We do have 2 special area's to discuss this 1 on ATS and 1 on BTS.
If people are hijacking threads in other area's they are veering off topic then, and those posters need to be told.

I am not going to go into the UFO forum and start quoting scripture for example, that would just be really stupid.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


But people do that exact kind of thing all the time. To everyone else it would sound pretty far off-topic.. To them, they might be trying to apply it to UFO's in general thus they would justify it as a valid post.

But I see what you mean.

People come on here from all walks of life, all ages, all maturity levels, and they come to ATS to have a discussion. I will say from experience that most of the really good, really interesting threads are rarely a simple discussion.

In alot of cases so much is open to interpretation and subjectiveness that people let their pre-existing biases and beliefs get in the way of really putting things in perspective. And even though most of us at ATS are firm believers in denying ignorance, it isn't always that simple. If you believe in something so adimantly that you would defend those beliefs by any and all means, you are always going to be seen as closed-minded.
I'm not saying its good to be closed-minded.. I guess I'm just saying I understand.

People are going to get attacked, people are going to defend their beliefs. Not all threads are like this.. I guess it just depends on the OP's post and the evolution of the discussion.

What I really hate is how people feel so sure of themselves when I wish they'd just have a personal realization that they don't have it all figured out (because nobody does). Some of the most annoying posts I've ever seen were not necessarily personal attacks. They are actually really thoughtful, valid posts worded in very insulting and demeaning ways.

But Things like posting scripture in a thread on religion doesn't necessarily add to the debate at hand. It just re-affirms someone's already existing beliefs. That doesn't really contribute anything to an open discussion about the possibilities and the unknowns about religion, itself. But some people just think they have it all figured out. I think this is one cause for alot of the personal attacks and nastiness. Ignorance always seems closely interlocked with arrogance and closed-mindedness. Having beliefs and opinions is completely normal. Shoving those beliefs and opinions onto other people is taking it a little too far.

You just gotta be able to respond to people in a civilized manner while at the same time challenging their ignorant beliefs in a rational, thoughtful, and easy to understand manner. If they flip out, so be it! The truth only hurts if you can't face it.

I agree that people should put themselves in check before it even reaches the point of inflammatory responses. But it's also true that some of the most impressive threads I've ever seen involved semi-inflammatory discussions that deal with the cold, hard facts and an objective debate on both sides.

IMO, a little feather-ruffling is O.K. as long as you do it right! And in some cases it can really add to the discussion and get other people to chime in. It's only when it gets really nasty and out of hand that it detracts from the discussion/debate. I've rarely seen it get that bad.

-ChriS

Honestly, I believe religious threads should now be banned on ATS. I am quite sick of the amount of pointless, tedious and inadequate threads appearing to "spread the gospel"

Religious extremists attacking "the gays" or "those Muslims" are seriously testing the very fabric of ATS and giving this site a bad reputation. Nothing conspiracy related to those threads, just paranoid zealots and zealous hatred towards another sect of humans.

Wouldn't be surprised if Abovetopsecret is listed as a hate site in a few years.

(This posts is not a direct criticism of the owners, or the moderation, just frustration at a hateful minority on ATS)

reply to post by infinite


The idea of banning topics that have major implications in the world seems contrary to the purpose of ATS. Learning how to effectively communicate sensitive topics with others is the answer, not banning important topics.

Originally posted by infinite
Honestly, I believe religious threads should now be banned on ATS. I am quite sick of the amount of pointless, tedious and inadequate threads appearing to "spread the gospel"

Religious extremists attacking "the gays" or "those Muslims" are seriously testing the very fabric of ATS and giving this site a bad reputation. Nothing conspiracy related to those threads, just paranoid zealots and zealous hatred towards another sect of humans.

Wouldn't be surprised if Abovetopsecret is listed as a hate site in a few years.

(This posts is not a direct criticism of the owners, or the moderation, just frustration at a hateful minority on ATS)

Wouldn't it be a little unfair to ban religiously themed threads but allow any atheist-themed threads to remain? I understand where you are coming from, but doing this would provide free reign for those who oppose or dislike religion to attack it ruthlessly, without fair opposition. This would inevitably lead to more hate threads, ironically, directed at Christianity and its followers.

There is no such thing as "those Gays" or "those Muslims" because an extremist minority is not reflective of a whole populous. The extremists in all aspects of life are the ones that are intolerant and unwilling to accept others that are different. Whether these people are from the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Gay community, THEY are the ones that ruin it for everyone else.

reply to post by C09JayLT


Yes, but the topics being created by these zealots is nothing important about the world, its future, et al - just endless hate threads.