Want to debate Homosexuality, Religion or Race intelligently on ATS? Don't waste your time!

In the last few weeks I've seen some of the most outrageous posts imaginable on ATS.

Guess what?

They were all either discussing Race, Homosexuality or Religion.


Are ATS'ers incapable of having an inelligent debate with regards to these subjects? Are we just too narrow minded to discuss these topics?
Are these subjects just so personal that it's impossible to be objective, balanced and rational?

Every single thread involving one of these topics just decends into a farce of tit for tat posts where the ATSers pick at comments and posts, ignoring the real issues involved.

What can we do about this guys?

How can we stay focused when these topics arise for debate?





[edit on 13-7-2009 by kiwifoot]

have a "race and gay" forum and a "religion" one.
i think that would solve the problem and take the discussion to a level we can all be proud of.

reply to post by kiwifoot


Well in the case for gay marriage or whatever, there is no intelligence on half the debate. Being those that oppose it. Like people say, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry one!". A reasonable person should come to the conclusion that if two men marry, it doesn't affect them. Minus religion and preconceived notions, there is no reason for people to interfere with a legal contract between two adults.


Religion I think is a little easier to discuss but of course, like the gay debate, it tends to head for the worst. But I suppose having the idea that all religions can be used correctly makes having a discussion a little easier

I don't see a lot of race related threads so can't say anything about that.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by ghaleon12]

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Are these subjects just so personal that it's impossible to be objective, balanced and rational?

[edit on 13-7-2009 by kiwifoot]

I know I'm guilty of taking things way too personally. I chalk mine up to intense programming, compounded with the difficulty of expanding ones open-mindedness.

I was taught from a very young age that some things were just wrong. It wasn't right, but it's what happened. It a heck of a chore going back through all that garbage trying to throw away what doesn't apply anymore.

It's not coincidence that it's the more personal, more deeply ingrained beliefs and teachings that are the most difficult for me to accept someone else's view on.

It's a huge collection of personal journeys. Someone who is bull-headed is just as deserving of tolerance as someone endorsing an alternate lifestyle or religion. At least I hope so, because the bull-headed one is usually me.

Well let's take my gay agenda thread for example.

Now mind you it was satire, but it did bring up some very nice points and some great discussion.

How did I keep it from getting ugly? The Alert button.

All the mods will tell you I am an avid user of it, especially in my threads. I can mod it myself that way and make sure that personnal attacks and the like are removed before other members have a chance to retaliate and devolve the thread entirely.

It's a nice thing to use.

~Keeper

Originally posted by KSPigpen

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Are these subjects just so personal that it's impossible to be objective, balanced and rational?

[edit on 13-7-2009 by kiwifoot]

I know I'm guilty of taking things way too personally. I chalk mine up to intense programming, compounded with the difficulty of expanding ones open-mindedness.

I was taught from a very young age that some things were just wrong. It wasn't right, but it's what happened. It a heck of a chore going back through all that garbage trying to throw away what doesn't apply anymore.

It's not coincidence that it's the more personal, more deeply ingrained beliefs and teachings that are the most difficult for me to accept someone else's view on.

It's a huge collection of personal journeys. Someone who is bull-headed is just as deserving of tolerance as someone endorsing an alternate lifestyle or religion. At least I hope so, because the bull-headed one is usually me.

You know, you really do talk a lot of sense there.

Open mindness goes both ways.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


So you think that a bit of self policing is in order. I hear you.

But what about the general direction of discussions.

Personal attacks aside, are there just some of us who are too set in our ways to embrace even intelligent conversations on these subject?

Originally posted by ghaleon12
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

Well in the case for gay marriage or whatever, there is no intelligence on half the debate. Being those that oppose it. Like people say, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry one!". A reasonable person should come to the conclusion that if two men marry, it doesn't affect them. Minus religion and preconceived notions, there is no reason for people to interfere with a legal contract between two adults.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by ghaleon12]

And that right there is what the OP was talking about when he mentioned narrow mindness.

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Personal attacks aside, are there just some of us who are too set in our ways to embrace even intelligent conversations on these subject?

Short answer, I think, is Yes. We are powerless to change others...their opinions included...when they step out on their own personal journey, they will either learn to adopt some open-mindedness, or they won't.

I like the idea of doing a little self-policing of your threads, but it sure would be nicer if we (myself especially) could behave ourselves.

Check out this thread if you feel that way.
Its about religion and not a single person is being rude.
The OP did a good job keeping it clean.
I think your argument might need a bit of a tune up.
Also if a thread is getting ugly then just alert a mod...simple.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by kiwifoot

Are these subjects just so personal that it's impossible to be objective, balanced and rational?

I think that something like a view on a race/sexual orientation could be something that is really personal and therefore, people can't objectively think about it.

As for religion, outside of ATS, I've had many discussions with people about Christianity and their religion. In general, people don't mind talking about religion. I think though, when it comes to religion/religion based topics on ATS, there are some that are so certain about their point of view that they're unwilling to waver. I'm not sure why this is though. Perhaps due to the nature of the site--one must be really certain of what they believe about the paranormal if they're going to discuss it with people.

This "unwaveringness" comes from both ends of the spectrum too--not just those with a faith or those without. From what I've seen, there are those of the Christian persuasion that are so convinced that they're theological viewpoint is right, that they're unwilling to consider a different view. A good example of this would be the doctrines eternal security or the Rapture. Then there are those without faith that are so convinced that those that believers in any faith are "hopeless sheeple" that they feel that ridicule is the only way to get them back from the "dark side".

As I think about it, I think that the name calling and unwillingness to discuss religious issues stems from pride, plain and simple. People are so certain that they're right that there is no way that they're wrong! [And that video I saw on YouTube/elsewhere earlier can't be wrong either!] I guess another thing that contributes to unwillingness to discuss are people's attitudes toward those that don't agree with them. An example would be this:

Originally posted by ghaleon 12
Well, in the case for gay marriage or whatever, there is no intelligence on half the debate. Being those that oppose it

An attitude like that isn't really conducive to discussion because, "I'm arguing with fools".

reply to post by kiwifoot


Well I can also help in that aspect, as well as recruit some of my fellow ATS friends to help move the conversation along properly.

With my gay agenda thread I used 3 or 4 of my good friends on the boards to post some very good long posts so people had something to talk about.

It took the focus away from the morons and placed it in the hands of the well discussed, well written replies.

I mean there is no sure fire way to move a conversation in the direction you want, there will always be those who just post for the sake of posting and have nothing to say.

But I just use my friends, and if the thread gets too out of hand, I ask a mod to close it.

~Keeper

As I mentioned in another thread, things get messy when people allow their irrational prejudices to get in the way.

An example could be arguing about the gay agenda. Most gay people are victims of sexual violence in one way or another. The trauma from an assault can cloud a person's judgment. On the other hand, violence can also force someone to live a straight lifestyle. Either way, by arguing from your own irrational prejudices nobody wins. They do it out of cognitive dissonance rather than to make a meaningful contribution.

reply to post by KSPigpen


Mate, I honestly think that if you are aware of your stance on some of the issues, and you know why you have those valid opinions, you cannot be considered one of the nasties I've seen of late.

There's no rulebook on ATS on what is correct, we are an accumulation of beliefs and ideas aquired from the day we are born, don't let me or anyone tell you you're wrong.

But it's the way we ( WE) seem to treat each other in these threads, the bitterness and closed minded arguing that gets me.

You know what I mean?

Originally posted by DrumsRfun
Check out this thread if you feel that way.
Its about religion and not a single person is being rude.
The OP did a good job keeping it clean.
I think your argument might need a bit of a tune up.
Also if a thread is getting ugly then just alert a mod...simple.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Okay, a slight over exaggeration, but you know what I mean!

Yeah, I know what you mean. I posted a thread about being mad a few days back. Got some really good responses from some really enlightened people. Got called ignorant, you know typical day.

I have an obligation to myself to try and improve. I can tear myself up anytime I want by closing my mind and holding tight to a tired argument, but that serves me no purpose. It does allow me to continue living in my own ignorance though. Sometimes that is more comfortable than trying to accept something that I can't understand.

We're not bad people, just because we have a hard time expressing ourselves, or because we can't agree. Even if we lash out at each other, out of ignorance or fear, it doesn't mean we're bad, just need some extra love. I know you aren't calling anyone bad, or anything. I just think it's important to strive to be non-judgmental, as that is at the root of so many of my problems.

My old man taught me how to hate, but he didn't teach me how to accept, tolerate or nurture.

It's up to ME to learn those things. Its up to all of us to either contribute or derail, but sometimes we might need a loving nudge in the right direction.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by KSPigpen]

reply to post by kiwifoot


Yeah I do man.
I just always disagree with blanket statements.
I think the key is to keep the thread as neutral as possible when making it.
If its not right on the fence then it will swing one way or the other which will attract the mudslinging from the people who are not talking from a neutral position.

Originally posted by KSPigpen
Yeah, I know what you mean. I posted a thread about being mad a few days back. Got some really good responses from some really enlightened people. Got called ignorant, you know typical day.

I have an obligation to myself to try and improve. I can tear myself up anytime I want by closing my mind and holding tight to a tired argument, but that serves me no purpose. It does allow me to continue living in my own ignorance though. Sometimes that is more comfortable than trying to accept something that I can't understand.

We're not bad people, just because we have a hard time expressing ourselves, or because we can't agree. Even if we lash out at each other, out of ignorance or fear, it doesn't mean we're bad, just need some extra love.

I know you aren't calling anyone bad, or anything. I just think it's important to strive to be non-judgmental, as that is at the root of so many of my problems.

My old man taught me how to hate, but he didn't teach me how to accept, tolerate or nurture.

It's up to ME to learn those things. Its up to all of us to either contribute or derail, but sometimes we might need a loving nudge in the right direction.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by KSPigpen]

I rally think you've got me confused with those enlightened souls we see on ATS lol!

I'm one of those angry guys that get's annoyed when people don't agree with me.(I'm learning slowly to just walk away, or stay calm and let them lose it!)

I got that from my dad too, we've got that in common mate!

His bad example taught me how not to be.

But enlightenment is thrown artound too easily on ATS, you can see these so called 'enlightened ones' being as judgemental and unforgiving as some of the true biggots you see. But because they are coming from an 'enlightened point of view' it's fine.

Noone is perfect, although a lot of us think we are.

All men/women can improve, have faults and need help, at least you know that mate.

reply to post by DrumsRfun


You know that's a really good point, the way the OP is worded can effect the direction of the thread.

I never really thought of that.

Cheers.

So...T&C aside....we know we have to try harder...we have to expand our puny little brains...how do we do it? A few people told me to meditate, but I don't think that's going to 'fix' every one else. :p and we all know it's THEM that make ME mad.