The unborn undying mind of the Buddha

I think I "get" that there is nothing to get, and that the individual is, at the most fundamental level, as a intrinsic part of life, perfect, whole and complete just as we are in our truest self, whereby there is nothing that needs to be achieved, and nowhere to get to, that indeed, everything is one and nothing/everything - which leads me to the notion of the un-born un-dying mind referenced in the Eastern traditions of Taoism and Buddhism.

The Western mind thinks in terms of a linear causation and the forward motion of time ie: when a bird flies through the air, it's past trajectory can be traced as it's path flying through the air, or in the case of a person's life, a series of events, from birth, leading up to the present, with a future aim or goal of realizing something better, or different from, what went before, with the present moment seen as being like a bubble of now, moving along the line or path of one's life trajectory, ultimately terminating at the point of death.

But could it be, that as part of life, we are fundamentally life itself?

Is not a person's life, more like a wave on water, which though the wave appears to be an individual piece of water moving along the surface, it is not in fact a single wave at all, but just water endlessly moving up and down and then hitting the shore time and again, continuously. Can such a wave said to be destroyed when it arrives at the shore, or was there even a real wave to begin with? And are not the shoreline, and the wave, both part of one and the same phenomenon ie: existence.

But in spite of these philosophical musings, I am still having some difficulty arriving at the conception or the realization, that I am not bound within the confines of a single life, from birth, to death, since the me that is me, is housed within this particular body (wave).

Oh I know about NDE's and OBE's and the quantum holographic universe as a sea of consciousness and how there is evidence that the consciousness of the individual can live outside of the body - but without getting into any sort of subject/object viewpoint, how can I achieve this state of mind Buddhism refers to as the unborn, undying mind? I'm sure it is already there, but how to uncover it, and integrate it..?

From a philosophical perspective, we can see that life meets life in cycles with continuity, and that death is a, part of, life, and is therefore contained within life, and not the other way around, since if death contained life, everything would be annihilated in death. So life meets life beyond the end of each life cycle - which would suggest that if my true nature is that of life, as part of life, then that most fundamental "I am" of being, cannot be cleaved from life at the point of physical death.

But the Buddhists are talking about something else here, about a non-duality which does not even consider the physical/non-physical aspects of the self, but of a no-self self and a no-mind mind, which is the unborn undying mind of the Buddha.

I want it, have caught fleeting glimpses of it in the past. At one point I really had it and said out loud to myself "I am the end of time", but then made myself wrong for it, suspecting that if I'm a part of God, and "the end of time" that at some point in the recurrence I might somehow bring an end to everything, but that's not right either, or someone, somewhere would have done that at some point and again, there would be nothing.

Any help in getting this, this unborn undying mind would be much appreciated. It's a very difficult thing to grasp - ah, but there's the rub, that it cannot be grasped at or "achieved" just realized instantaneously.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Hi Omega,

Very nice post. You say you are having trouble reaching realization "in spite of these philosophical musings." Could it be, at this point, that it is the philosophical musings that have become the problem. The most difficult thing to grasp in this is that there is actually nothing to grasp with the mind, no philosophy, no matter how spiritual, can bring you to the awakening. You cannot be brought to the awakening because you are already there. It is the mind that is blocking the realization. Simply focus on being in the present. The heart is your guide in this. This mind cannot help you. Best to you.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by Silenceisall]

reply to post by Silenceisall


Actually when I go back and re-read what I wrote I can see that I have already gotten it intelllectually and philosophically, so you're right, now it's just a matter of letting go in the mind and allowing the heart to experience it. Thank you.

I made my way up a small hill and on it stood a single willow tree.
I sat beneath it sheltered from the light of the afternoon Sun.
The shade cooled me in conjunction with the light breeze that was present that day.
The birds chirped and frolicked and the breeze swayed the branches of this willow tree.
I reached up,pick one of the fruit present on this willow tree and bit it.
It was bitter and dried my mouth to the point that my only thought was now that I needed something to drink.

I then closed my eyes.

...And after a time I no longer heard the birds chirping ,the warmth of the sun and the light breeze.

I was then suddenly filled with joy.

I left and never returned to that spot.

In the midst of the duality...

Living Water

The pain i feel in seeing anothers life finds its root in their lost potential. If i allow myself to be satisfied with the death in ignorance of those that i love because of a deluded sense of an afterlife my life would be a waste. Never let your religion of reincarnation or karma make you apathetic. In apathy there is the greatest of delusion with the tools and material nessesary to build a cage you will never escape from.

We shape and mold society with the knowledge we gain. If the wisest of us decide to go sit under a tree and allow those seeking knowledge to go hungry and die then we have missed the entire purpose of life. Never allow yourself to miss a moment to enlighten another and never stop punching yourself in the face for those who sliped through the cracks. Always move forward obtaining the most valuble of experiance to be shared with those you meet.

Don't eat from a willow tree.
You may never have a perfect place to sit again.

Originally posted by The Utopian Penguin
I reached up,pick one of the fruit present on this willow tree and bit it.
It was bitter and dried my mouth to the point that my only thought was now that I needed something to drink.

Hmm.. Willow trees don't really have "fruit" per se, just seed capsules, but I wonder if you bit something that looked like these?:






There are different varieties. Those are persimmons and a persimmon tree. I wonder if that's what you're talking about because, if you pick and eat an unripe persimmon, it will draw your mouth up unlike anything else I have ever eaten in my life. It's hard to explain to people who have never eaten one. It feels like your mouth is being drawn together by a bunch of strings from the inside. They are only ripe when they LOOK rotten. But are delicious then.

reply to post by bsbray11

Fruit: Open capsules of Salix cinerea with seeds and hairs The fruit is a small, one-celled, two-valved, cylindrical beaked capsule containing numerous tiny (0.1 mm) seeds. The seeds are furnished with long, silky, white hairs, which allow the fruit to be widely dispersed by the wind.

The Willow



[edit on 13-7-2009 by The Utopian Penguin]

I know what a willow tree looks like but its fruit looks like this:



I just find it odd someone would feel the urge to eat that, but of course stranger things have happened.

reply to post by bsbray11


Define the word fruit.(look it up)

Read the Wiki I presented to you.

The tree is still there.

Have you found it ?
Did you sit under it ?
Did you taste it ?
are you confused ?
I'm not lol
Oh... and the fruit were not all fluffy yet lol

[edit on 13-7-2009 by The Utopian Penguin]

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I want it, have caught fleeting glimpses of it in the past. At one point I really had it and said out loud to myself "I am the end of time", but then made myself wrong for it, suspecting that if I'm a part of God, and "the end of time" that at some point in the recurrence I might somehow bring an end to everything, but that's not right either, or someone, somewhere would have done that at some point and again, there would be nothing.

"I am the end of time" - I too had this in my grasps, but as far as I figured it, as soon as this realization happens, that it is you that holds all of this together, you then have to hold all of this together, which is almost impossible, it would require one to be aware of everything at all moments all of the time.

Oh and I also figure that it probably goes around in a circle a little different everytime, so in thought there could be a no - thing , but then it would just start all over again.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Excellent OP OmegaPoint.

I take back all I said about the dangers of you using that Centerpointe wave machine, you have become very aware in what seems a very short period of time.



Seems enlightenment is not dangerous after all.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I want it

Here lies your problem I believe.
Those who nothing want, have it all.
And how can you want nothing? Being fully present in the moment.
The wanting is your attachment to the future and probably even to the past.
I know two methods of being fully present in the moment.
One is meditation, and this is not necessarily "formal meditation".
Meditation here means to pay attention each second to what you are doing.
You could be walking and all you need is pay attention to your feet getting in touch with the floor. Try to follow the movement and the feeling of your feet reaching the ground with your mind. It is quite simple and very entertaining I think. You can meditate with anything anytime. Just be creative and remember to observe mindfully!
The other method of which I know are drugs and sex.
But realize that you will still meditate on it, those are just ways of meditating for lazy people that need a little push from the outside.

I like the thread.
S+F for you Omega!




edit: Also, I think the Ocean is the best meditational object. It always passes on some incredible insights for me. Maybe because I'm a surfer. Or I'm surfer because the Ocean keeps calling me. Who knows? It just works!

[edit on 13-7-2009 by Geladinhu]

reply to post by Geladinhu


But I really want it (said like a child).

Meditate on what precisely?

I guess we cannot enter through the gate, but that the gate must be allowed to enter into us, and then we become the gate.

Like someone else said, you have to want it more than life itself, and be willing to die to get it, to go to ANY lenghts, in order to get to the very end of the self and self seeking.

The mind cannot grasp the mind trying to grasp the mind, and in the same way, we cannot have what we want, because it is in the wanting, that we do not have it.

Eventually I will give it up, and then it will be mine!

reply to post by Geladinhu


Very well presented Geladinhu.

In expressing "you want it" OmegaPoint you have expressed a desire.
In trying to GRASP... It has eluded you. You now appear to feel loss.

If you keep your keys in the same spot all the time and place them there with intent ...you never need to search for them.

reply to post by The Utopian Penguin


Could you describe it Utopian Penguin? The unborn undying mind?

And if you cannot say what it is, can you say what it is not?

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by Geladinhu

 

But I really want it (said like a child).

Meditate on what precisely?

I guess we cannot enter through the gate, but that the gate must be allowed to enter into us, and then we become the gate.

Like someone else said, you have to want it more than life itself, and be willing to die to get it, to go to ANY lenghts, in order to get to the very end of the self and self seeking.

The mind cannot grasp the mind trying to grasp the mind, and in the same way, we cannot have what we want, because it is in the wanting, that we do not have it.

Eventually I will give it up, and then it will be mine!

Meditate on whatever you feel like meditating.
It doesn't matter the object, it could be birds singing, it could be a beautiful landscape, it could be food, whatever pops in your mind as a desire. Do it, but remember you are doing it! And never forget you are doing it.

When I started getting into spirituality (about 3 years ago) I wrote things on my hands and arms as to not forget what I really wanted to remember.
So for example, you could write (with a simple pen) on your arm something like this: Do it. Don't forget you are doing it.
I don't know, you can come up with whatever is more comfortable with you.
But since our mind is so easily distracted I like to have something with me all the time to remind me to stay focused.

And I have to disagree that you have to want it more then you want to live. That doesn't make sense. If that was so you could just kill yourself and you would have it. I think what was trying to be said here is that you should not fear anything, not even death. Once you accept and embrace all possibilities, even death, you will have it.

I also have to disagree that the mind cannot grasp the mind trying to grasp the mind. That is exactly what meditation is about. The words used here are confusing. If you are able to grasp the mind trying to grasp the mind with your mind you are freeing yourself from the mind. The mind that is grasping the mind trying to grasp the mind is not mind anymore, it is consciousness. And consciousness grasps everything.

Normally I would have something today about this philosophical stuff, but I am afraid that this one is out of my league. The unborn undying mind is something that I can't even begin to fathom. I spend my life measuring and calculating existence, so I find it more than difficult to comprehend this.

reply to post by Mr. Toodles


Well there can be no doubt as to it's existence, and it represents the end of all doubt, and all further grasping. It is the fully liberated mind and way of being, and, according to Buddha himself, it's "nothing special".

To have it would be to have everlasting peace and life and utter contentment and complete freedom, to be one's completely natural self, authentic, and without care or concern, although not lacking in compassion.

Glad to have presented something Mr. Toodles which would pose a challenge to you and your thinking.

Surely existence cannot be divided.. nor the mind or the self divided or divided from the existence within which it is emersed and imbedded.