ABUSE CRISIS: Some photos showing Iraqis being tortured and raped, are fakes.

Regarding who develped the pictures...... i found this in the daily mirror :

Kelly Tilford, who worked at the Max Spielman photographic shop in Tamworth, Staffs, yesterday described in graphic detail the pictures she saw of Iraqis being sexually abused.

Kelly, 23, was processing a film taken by soldier Gary Bartlam a year ago.

She handed the pictures to police. They passed them to military authorities who launched a probe.

Kelly told the Mirror: "It was a film of about 24 pictures, all taken in Iraq. Most showed general scenes of soldiers holding weapons, posing for the camera. But there were four that really shocked and disgusted me - they were horrible.

"The first showed a prisoner being forced to perform oral sex on a soldier. The prisoner was screwing up his face in disgust. He looked deeply ashamed.

"The second showed two naked Iraqi men with one apparently being forced to rape another.

"The third appears to be taken in some kind of warehouse and showed a naked Iraqi, looking terrified, being dangled in a net from the lifting gear of a forklift truck.

"He was being held about 15ft off the ground and looked absolutely petrified. At the wheel of the forklift was a soldier in uniform and you could clearly see his face. Two British soldiers were watching what was going on and smirking.

"The fourth showed a group of Iraqi men, all naked, sitting on the ground. There were about 10 of them sitting or squashed up together but none of them was on top of another.

"Some of them looked scared, some of them looked ashamed."

I dont know what kind of porn would show footage of naked arab men and us marines abusing them... or what about naked arab men being threatened and bitten by dogs... hmmm sonds really kinky...

The Arab press would have been reffering to the pictures as pornography simply because they show naked men being humiliated. If they said they were fakes it may have been to save the men involved some face. This whole prisoner abuse thing is unnaceptable and GW and his administration should be held liable not the soldiers who were following orders. Bush called for anyone who abused American POW's to be tried as war criminals, so i think everyone from the abuser to the president should be tried as well

This has been mentioned a couple of times but even after it was brought up I still saw someone posting

"I have seen only a few times and didn't study them closely, but someone is definitely pissing on someone in those pics "

No they are not. This comes from the FAKE set.

There are at least 3 separate sets of photos.

1: The ones from the US prison featuring Ms England and the other alleged 1000 or so images under investigation in the US = REAL

2: The images that appeared in the Mirror, These include the urination shot and the hoods = FAKE

3: The porn flick pics = FAKE

There will almost certainly be more to come, both real and fake.

It seems obvious that the reason the fake pictures came out was not to inflame people but to cast doubt on the validity of all the images and any future ones.

And its working. Already people are starting to speculate about the validity of the real set of photo's. You only need a hint of a hoax for the validity of everything to be called into question.

I suspect the fake pictures were created either by someone or a group sympathetic to the War in Iraq trying to sew seeds of doubt that these abuses were real, or by our own governments.

Its a tried and tested ploy that has been used by governments and the media throughout history.

I garentee you that in the next few months more pictures will come out and some groups will point at the faked images as proof that these subsequent ones aren't real.

[Edited on 11-5-2004 by Simon]

I have to agree with you there "specialasianX", all i keep seeing in the media is that the abusers where told to carry out attacks on the prisoners, but who told them?

They should be made to name the people who told them to do it (top generals too) and they should be getting the same treatment, all should be held accountable! instead of standing there like butter would not melt.

I mean we all know what is morally right and wrong, if someone told me to go and kick someones head in, i would not be able to do it (maybe i am just to soft), i just think it is disgusting what is going on.

We all know that atrocities have happened in the west, but do the children and women deserve to be punished for that? do the men who may not even have anything to do with it?

I don't think so, there is NO excuse!

Originally posted by Simon
I suspect the fake pictures were created either by someone or a group sympathetic to the War in Iraq trying to sew seeds of doubt that these abuses were real, or by our own governments.

The British photos are fake. The regiment concerned has demanded a full apology from the Daily Mirror.
I do doubt that this is something concocted by a political organisation though.
The reason behind these photos being given to the newspaper is far more simpler - MONEY.
Whoever supplied the Mirror with the fake UK photos would have recieved at least a 3 figure sum. British media is notoriously bad at checking up on it's sources and the paper would have paid up without to much fuss. As the Mirror is anti-Iraq invasion, it would probably have bitten the hand off any half credible source to obtain the photographs.

This doesn't mean to say that abuses haven't been perpetrated by UK forces in Iraq and the Mirror will probably use any future prosecution to justify it's position.

I hate to say this but it appears we have more "real" photos than most want to admit.

This is posted on www.drudgereport.com

"Pentagon possesses three disks of photos, one of which includes a photo of soldiers sodomizing prisoners with glow sticks... Many of the photos are redundant, and some have little to do with Iraqi detainees but show sex between U.S. soldiers... Pentagon officials prevailed at least temporarily in their insistence that the administration not immediately release the images, which include the forced masturbation of a detainee... "

I hope we bring all charges against the troops that did this. If for no other reason than for the danger they are putting all the other troops in. Now all Americans are seen as deviants and are targeted because of this. Those who did this abuse should be charged, possibly with treason for the risk they are putting their fellow soldiers in.

Also aren't we worried the same may be happening in Gitmo? We need some strong military leadership to take over the handling of prisoners, obviously what we have has failed.

Just my .02

Rumsfield himself said that... Rummy is going to get his walking papers here very shortly and Bush will get his in November. You may not believe me now but watch. Cheney and Bush screwed with the CIA and now they are getting it back 100 fold, it will be the ruin of them.

Here is a thought. Does anyone realize that these photos showing abuse and sexual humilation are exactly like what you hear about stories from our own prisons? Remember the guards kicking the naked prisoners down the hallways a couple of years ago? What about the fact in our prisons the gangs actually control the prison and sex is used to control inmates.

Did we not just setup our own state prison system in Iraq? I am not saying it is not wrong, but is it surprising?

It IS war isn't it?
Screw the "rules of war".
That's foolishness - extract information any way you can.

For the record, I'm Japanese.

you are also living in the past .
torture is a very dumb way to gather information , the tortured will tell you what ever you want to hear to stop the torture .

Believe it or not, there are ATS members who make claims that the still emerging Abu Ghraib photos, including the infamous mauling of prisoner by military dog, are fake.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sad to see. But that is ATS for you, freedom of speech, freedom to be ignorant.

Sorry if this sounds I guess, weird, to some but of all the pictures I have seen. Very few have shown actual Iraqi abuse imo.

Humiliation? Yes
Torture and abuse? eh....if you say so....

I guess you can make the argument that humiliation is a form of abuse, but I'd rather have that than all out torture.
I know that real abuse is going on (it's gone on in every war before this and will continue in every war after this), but I doubt if they'll bring cameras and leave obvious trails into the interrogation rooms. The pics are sick, disgusting, vile, and yes someone should pay for that, but pics of REAL REAL torture and abuse I doubt will show up anytime soon or at all.

Yes we all know you are the smartest guy on the block but belittleing people for questioning things that do not seem Kosher in there minds is only dumbing yourself down. Use your wisdom in a positive way or soon everyone will click ignore.

Originally posted by dahei
you are also living in the past .
torture is a very dumb way to gather information , the tortured will tell you what ever you want to hear to stop the torture .

There are ways to determine if a person is just telling you what you want to hear or telling the truth. Ask a former vietnam POW.....

I'm sure there are FAKE torture pictures floating around the internet. But, that does not rule out the REAL ones that show torture and various froms sexual torture. The soldiers, under orders from the NEOCONS, applied extreme torture to these 'detainees', so dont allow these fake picture to divert your attention from the FACTS.

Rape did happen, ask those Iraqi women are now pregnant and others that have commited suicide because of the defilement.

Dont fall prey to ignoring the TRUTH.


NeedTruth

Originally posted by NeedTruth
Rape did happen, ask those Iraqi women are now pregnant and others that have commited suicide because of the defilement.

Ok, you're going to have to provide a link this one.

In all the pictures I have seen (excluding the confirmed fake ones). Not one has shown an Iraqi woman.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
provide a link this one.

In all the pictures I have seen (excluding the confirmed fake ones). Not one has shown an Iraqi woman.

I did not state that I saw REAL pictures of women being raped but there are enough reports out there. Do a search on google. Here is one:

truthout.org...

NeedTruth

Originally posted by factfinder38
Yes we all know you are the smartest guy on the block but belittleing people for questioning things that do not seem Kosher in there minds is only dumbing yourself down. Use your wisdom in a positive way or soon everyone will click ignore.

Be my guest, please. Maybe not "everyone" will follow.

But our preference should be for people engaged in discussion to begin with and operate with the facts. Read the other thread if it interests you, and establish what is "kosher" for yourself. And the truth of Abu Ghraib will still be there, no matter how sadly you try to discredit the photos.



Dumbing down is US government policy, not mine.

The fake photos sound like "covert disinformation" to me. The point of such a disinformation would be to diminish the impact of the real photos which is quite in character with the treachery and lies demonstrated by the bush administration. The bottom line is that most of the photos are real and you should give anyone that says otherwise a swift kick in the butt.

You like to talk about facts MA, but when someone says something that is true but you don't seem to like, you claim that those people are wrong... Notice how I say in the original story "some photos.....,are fakes."

I was reporting the facts, if this is what you were referring to when you questioned "my credibility" in another post, you are truly a sad person for trying to slander someone else who is posting real news.