Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

Originally posted by Archon_Adept
reply to post by Mumbotron

 

More subjective, unsubstantiated nonsense from a pro-zionist. How surprising.

You should read more.

Originally posted by Archon_Adept
reply to post by Mumbotron

 

There are plenty of vocal Americans who reject the wars. You can easily find them on the internet and independent media. Show Israelis who reject what Israel is doing? Where's their voice?

It's funny that you say Mumbotron's comments were subjective and zionist

And, to answer your question with more "subjective and zionist" rhetoric: There are plenty of Israelis who object to much of what happens in Israel, by Israel etc. And, it appears it would be useless to "show" you any proof because it appears you would reject anything contrary to what your mind has already concluded. A simple search by yourself would give you ample evidence. But, apparently, you seem to be one of those individuals that has bought into mainstream propaganda about whatever view point is the "topic of the day" without actually trying to objectively consider all sides; therefore, seeing that all sides MAY have positive and negative aspects.

Again, it's easier to scapegoat the poor jews for everything though instead of actually using your own brain just like it's easier to scapegoat all the arabs for being terrorists.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
my dislike of Israel as a nation, and Zionists, really is just a dislike of the Israeli nation and Zionists.

The MOSSAD (active in all port cities everywhere) even has me on it's protected species list Mike and chuckles at my towering ability to attract static electricity on any subject.

OK PT,

I hear you.

I've caused my own entrapment on this site. Came here because of genuine interest in a lot of non-mainstream subjects and there are informed people. I've worked as a journalist in the past, and being able to do Q & A with knowledgeable people real time is a dream.

But particularly since the Gaza incursion kind of shocked at the incessant vilification of anything and everything related to Jews, Israel, Mossad.

People are shot, murdered, tortured around the world every minute of the day, often for the crime of being a different race or religion. No one cares much. But here we are on an heated extended exchange because some Jews spit at some Christians in Jerusalem. Much worse happens in Jerusalem and elsewhere. Jews being beaten by Christians in Europe or somewhere wouldn't hit the news, merit a video, get a rise on this forum.

The attention getting magnet is consistent "Jew does something bad"

Somebody has to respond to the flood of hate.

The irony is that I was never particularly oriented to the whole Jewish identity and culture. I have more Muslim than Jewish friends and hardly know any Israelis. My social life and personal relationships have been primarily Christian due to living where that's the majority. Canada is in fact 52% Catholic with the French population and immigration from places like Italy, Ireland, etc. I've spent most of my adult life outside North America. Not the time and place but were I to enumerate my extended relationships, socio-economically and demographically, you would find it eyebrow raising.

Granted Israel is hopelessly misgoverned. But the paranoia is not unjustified given past and recent history. Out of all this has come a militarized state, a weapons industry, an intelligence network. Were things more peaceful you might have just gotten a white collar Switzerland in the desert with more shawarma than filet mignon.

But the malice and power seeking attributions are completely over the top. The fact that despite regional military superiority there is still a struggle to just maintain itself pretty much demonstrates how extended the ambitions really are.

The US alliance is also greatly overstated. Israel is not an American colony. It does not dictate foreign policy to the US. The Israeli PM does not give orders to the Pres of the the US.

It has a working relationship with the US, Britain begrudgingly, places like Turkey, France sometimes, and other places. Affiliations come and go as interests change.

The Muslim World has decided it's got go. Many people in the West agree.
The reasons are not so much just because what they do there, but because of who they are.

That's not an easy situation to be in. Criticism and advice come easy in a world where everyone's an expert on everything.

Keeping strong, protecting your people, trying to be ethical at the same time, is a tough balancing act. The Israelis try to do all of these despite how you may interpret their actions.


Mike

Originally posted by Oeden
Again, it's easier to scapegoat the poor jews for everything though instead of actually using your own brain just like it's easier to scapegoat all the arabs for being terrorists.

It is the evil Juice again! Self-pity and deliberately mixing up Zionism with Judaism has become an efficient weapon in the fight against criticism of Israel. Silence them! These evil anti-Semites always scapegoat Israel and the poor Jews.

Dude, get real! This has nothing to do with being Jewish, this is has to do with the barbaric treatment of Palestinians in the territories. I guess you didn't visit the settlements, where moderate Palestinian families are harassed, abused and their houses burnt to the ground if they refuse to sell them to the settlers.

That's what you don't see while living in Tel-Aviv. I held the Israeli government as well as our Western governments responsible for this. They allow Israel to be above the law, because they have been through the Holocaust as stated in the quote in my signature.

The majority of Israelis are good people, like you and me, but with the green light of the Israeli government, military and police, a significant number of Israelis commit crimes differing little from those committed by other extremist organizations.

I've been to these places, have seen it happening. Next time you should maybe pay a visit to Hebron and stay there for some weeks. May I be so free to ask why you've been to Israel and where exactly?

Some months ago there was a documentary on Dutch tv (which unfortunately does not have subtitles). It was about a Palestinian refugee who currently studies and lives in the Netherlands as well as a Jewish girl from Amsterdam whom had lived in Israel for a couple of years. They went to see both the Palestinian situation and the Israeli situation. For instance, they visited Israeli cities which are under daily fire of rockets launched by the extremist Hamas movement, they were explained how it is to live in constant fear. Additionally, they visited Palestinian families of which the children are constantly scared on their way to school, thrown rocks at and spit on. Families who are killed by settlers as well as farmers whom see their olive tree yards burnt to the ground by Israeli settlers claiming the land belongs to them.

More interestingly, they visited a peace initiative of a Palestinian man whose daughter of 8 had been killed deliberately in cold blood by an Israeli soldier, while buying candy on the street. Together with an Israeli man who'd lost his daughter in a terrible suicide attack, killing many. Instead of fueling the hatred they had decided to start a peace initiative and try to work to a better future together. Last, they visited a theater group consisting of Palestinians and Israelis. One Israeli child who was member of the group was always bullied at school, spit at and harassed. Why? Simply because he was considered to be a traitor to his people

Then there is a problem that many Palestinians see Israelis as evil liars who cannot be trusted while Israelis consider Palestinians as terrorists. Now, I am opinion that the Israeli government is responsible for this. Palestinians know they will never be able to beat Israel, all they want is their own state, a normal live. Obviously there will always be extremists, but in contrast to what Fox makes you believe, the vast majority of Palestinians are just like you me. You must be fully ignorant to think they'd all rather kill themselves than raising their childs. Just some extremists. Now the Israeli government has stated that the US is not going to dictate them whether there will be peace or a stop of settlement expansion. The Israeli government simply doesn't want peace.

Now I have one last question: what other country on earth is allowed to act like this by the West?


[edit on 13-7-2009 by Mdv2]

reply to post by Mumbotron


Where's a link? Show me an Israeli leader who rejects what's happening in Israel? Obama went in front of AIPAC and pledged absolute support for Israel. Show me footage of an Israeli supporting America. Show me an Israeli who says Christians and Jews are friends. Just one. Go ahead.

Well, I have plenty of problems with America and American culture, but we're betting than spitting in peoples faces.

USA > Israel

reply to post by Oeden


Where's a link? Show me an Israeli leader who rejects what's happening in Israel? Obama went in front of AIPAC and pledged absolute support for Israel. Show me footage of an Israeli supporting America. Show me an Israeli who says Christians and Jews are friends. Just one. Go ahead.

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


yes, you are anti-semetic. only the Quran speaks of converting the infidels or killing them. so does the new testament

Originally posted by NoamC
reply to post by ZombieOctopus

 

yes, you are anti-semetic. only the Quran speaks of converting the infidels or killing them. so does the new testament

You are sure?

The Deception Continues

Modern scholars of Judaism have not only continued the deception, but have actually improved upon the old rabbinical methods, both in impudence and in mendacity. I omit here the various histories of antisemitism, as unworthy of serious consideration, and shall give just three particular examples and one general example of the more modern 'scholarly' deceptions.

In 1962, a part of the Maimonidean Code referred to above, the so-called Book of Knowledge, which contains the most basic rules of Jewish faith and practice, was published in Jerusalem in a bilingual edition, with the English translation facing the Hebrew text.20 The latter has been restored to its original purity, and the command to exterminate Jewish infidels appears in it in full: 'It is a duty to exterminate them with one's own hands.' In the English translation this is somewhat softened to: 'It is a duty to take active measures to destroy them.' But then the Hebrew text goes on to specify the prime examples of 'infidels' who must be exterminated: 'Such as Jesus of Nazareth and his pupils, and Tzadoq and Baitos 21 and their pupils, may the name of the wicked rot'. Not one 'word of this appears in the English text on the facing page (78a). And, even more significant, in spite of the wide circulation of this book among scholars in the English-speaking countries, not one of them has, as far as I know, protested against this glaring deception.

Source

Cannot confirm nor deny this, but it certainly is an interesting question whether it's true or not.

I wonder if someone were to post a companion article about, oh let's say, Muslims cutting the heads off non-Muslims, if it would get 107 replies and a bucket full of stars.

But a small group of hard core Jews spitting on non-Jews in one town, now that's MUCH worse.

Originally posted by Archon_Adept
reply to post by Oeden

 

Where's a link? Show me an Israeli leader who rejects what's happening in Israel? Obama went in front of AIPAC and pledged absolute support for Israel. Show me footage of an Israeli supporting America. Show me an Israeli who says Christians and Jews are friends. Just one. Go ahead.

A link of an Israeli leader who opposes his own policies, not likely. Like I said the actions of the Israeli military have always been controlled by special interests (non-Jewish) and Israel itself wouldn't be where it is today in fulfillment of Bibical end times prophecies if it weren't for a small group of international bankers making that choice. You are a confused person. I'm sticking to the assumption that you come from a small town and haven't ever met a Jewish person. Take it from me- or don't, Jews and Christians ARE friends.

Originally posted by Mumbotron

Originally posted by Archon_Adept
reply to post by Oeden

 

Where's a link? Show me an Israeli leader who rejects what's happening in Israel? Obama went in front of AIPAC and pledged absolute support for Israel. Show me footage of an Israeli supporting America. Show me an Israeli who says Christians and Jews are friends. Just one. Go ahead.

A link of an Israeli leader who opposes his own policies, not likely. Like I said the actions of the Israeli military have always been controlled by special interests (non-Jewish) and Israel itself wouldn't be where it is today in fulfillment of Bibical end times prophecies if it weren't for a small group of international bankers making that choice. You are a confused person. I'm sticking to the assumption that you come from a small town and haven't ever met a Jewish person. Take it from me- or don't, Jews and Christians ARE friends.

So you can't provide a link, and you're a lying propagandist. You crack me. How much do you get paid for posting on ats?

www.ynetnews.com...

Originally posted by Mdv2

Originally posted by NoamC
reply to post by ZombieOctopus

 

yes, you are anti-semetic. only the Quran speaks of converting the infidels or killing them. so does the new testament

You are sure?

The Deception Continues

Modern scholars of Judaism have not only continued the deception, but have actually improved upon the old rabbinical methods, both in impudence and in mendacity. I omit here the various histories of antisemitism, as unworthy of serious consideration, and shall give just three particular examples and one general example of the more modern 'scholarly' deceptions.

Source

Cannot confirm nor deny this, but it certainly is an interesting question whether it's true or not.

Seek and ye shall find it on the Internet.

Maybe appropriate for here, this is from an apparently Born-Again Australian bible-thumper site. The quote is from a scandalized lunatic fringe chemistry professor named Shahak, who is called a Rabbi here but was not. He was reviled in his day but found an audience with Neo-Nazis and White Supermacists. Though not recognized by the mainstream, he is the most quoted Jewish scholar in the Muslim world.

en.wikipedia.org...

Shahak's works have found a receptive audience among neo-Nazis, antisemites and Holocaust deniers, and his articles and the full texts of his works can be found on websites such as Radio Islam, Bible Believers, Jew Watch, CODOH, and "Historical Review Press". David Duke mourned Shahak, stating he had exposed "numerous examples of hateful Judaic laws... that permit Jews to cheat, to steal, to rob, to kill, to rape, to lie, even to enslave Christians,"and dedicated his book Jewish Supremacism to him. Duke's antisemitic theories defaming the Talmud and Judaism drew on material from the works of Shahak and Elizabeth Dilling.

Shahak has been accused of fabricating incidents, "blaming the victim", distorting the normative meaning of Jewish texts, and misrepresenting Jewish belief and law. According to Paul Bogdanor, Shahak "regaled his audience with a stream of outrageous libels, ludicrous fabrications, and transparent hoaxes. As each successive allegation was exposed and discredited, he would simply proceed to a new invention." Ari Alexander, co-founder of the Children of Abraham Organization for Jewish-Islamic dialogue, while noting the widespread use of Shahak's works by neo-Nazis and in Arab countries, concludes that:

'the texts that Shahak cites are real (though Shahak's sporadic use of footnotes makes it difficult to check all of them). Oftentimes, the interpretation of these texts is debatable and their prominence in Judaism negligible, but nonetheless, they are part of Jewish tradition and, therefore, cannot be ignored.'

Mike


[edit on 13-7-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by Archon_Adept


That's because no world leader opposes their own policy. Now that you have resorted to personal insults, it's clear your opinion is founded on your own weakness and a lack of knowledge. Nobody pays me to be here, what about you?

Let's Please Stay On Topic

Our topic: Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

Unsurprisingly, the subject is somewhat controversial, but that doesn't excuse bad behavior. Personal attacks and other forms of flamery are always off-topic in our forums, so let's please try extra hard to be calm and resist the impulse to drag the discussion into the mud.

Thanks.





Some handy links worth noting:

Courtesy Is Mandatory

The END of Hate Speech, subtle or otherwise, on ATS

The Ha'aretz article fails to mention the reason the elderly man spat at the Orthodox Priest. It could have been the Priest said something insulting at the government meeting? Also, a person wearing a Kippah (Skullcap) does not mean they are Jewish. Muslims and some Christians also wear Skullcaps.

Most of you do not look at the news and see that after some years will be far worse off than Israel. The cold facts are 1). The lost of 1/2 jobs a month and un employment running out. 2). Changes in laws that is copy write laws changed to use fees, Hate crime laws, fairness act, police the net, gun confiscation, on and on over the next four years. 3). The S & L cases go to trial starting about 2012 and kiss your butt good buy. 4). Cases like if an earthquake were to hit northern Call 3/4th of that state would be drinking salt water. That would end farming there and the people would move elsewhere. All that is just for starters as even *at best* with over 90 Trillion in unfunded mandates the government would paint it self into a corner and be forced to use confiscation. Many people would leave before then. South Israel is on the list for me due to the common decline in moral laws when judges go wacko how they are worded. For example beds being ordered in the street so people can watch the homosexual rape of any passer by. You can marry a dog, horse or cow. Every room in your home must have a working video cam. The madness that can come out of these people could be endless. You can look at it and fill it in your way but you get the point.

Most of you do not look at the news and see that after some years will be far worse off than Israel. The cold facts are 1). The lost of 1/2 jobs a month and un employment running out. 2). Changes in laws that is copy write laws changed to use fees, Hate crime laws, fairness act, police the net, gun confiscation, on and on over the next four years. 3). The S & L cases go to trial starting about 2012 and kiss your butt good buy. 4). Cases like if an earthquake were to hit northern Call 3/4th of that state would be drinking salt water. That would end farming there and the people would move elsewhere. All that is just for starters as even *at best* with over 90 Trillion in unfunded mandates the government would paint it self into a corner and be forced to use confiscation. Many people would leave before then. South Israel is on the list for me due to the common decline in moral laws when judges go wacko how they are worded. For example beds being ordered in the street so people can watch the homosexual rape of any passer by. You can marry a dog, horse or cow. Every room in your home must have a working video cam. The madness that can come out of these people could be endless. You can look at it and fill it in your way but you get the point.

reply to post by mmiichael

I've caused my own entrapment on this site. Came here because of genuine interest in a lot of non-mainstream subjects and there are informed people. I've worked as a journalist in the past, and being able to do Q & A with knowledgeable people real time is a dream.

Friend Mike believe me when I say I feel for you. One of the things I have been seeking to help you possibly greater consider is that the whole issue of Israel much like Obama's Birth Certificate has been set up from the get go to explode.

Honestly there are just so many things involved beyond your control, my control, that as much as you may want to help, there is that albeit sad possibility that there is no way to difuse something that the ticking on started 19 centuries ago.

They have packed a lot of gunpowder in that puppy in the meantime if you can appreciate the annology.

I think more than anything what this particular story highlights and we see it manifest again and again throughout the Middle East is that moderates just have little impact on the situation.

It is the extremists both hawks and doves that drive the agenda leaving a lot of very decent people with the best of intentions in the middle scratching their heads jumping up and down waving their hands hoping the teacher will call on them, but alas the teacher never does.

I can honestly say I don't know what the right approach is on Obama or Israel. The people that have set these things up to explode have an uncanny ability to anticipate almost every avenue one might take towards defeating or stale mating them and to actually use that as a catalyst and leverage towards their goal.

Many times as I have wrestled with the Powers that Be, I think ah ha this ought to stick a burr under the old horses saddle only to find that once the beast had stampeded it just simply arrived in a great hurry exactly where they wanted the beast to be.

Unlike a lot of people on ATS Mike the Powers that Be are not some abstract mythical group of larger than life charachters to me, but people I actually know, have done business with, dine with, share intimate experiences and moments with, even a few laughs and tears that all have names and would pick up the phone when I called even if it was in the middle of a press conference and say wow, PT on the phone really, I wonder what the heck he is calling for.

There is an excellent chance that no matter how you try to affect the balance and outcome, or I try to affect the balance or outcome all these manauvers have already been factored in to their strategy, in large part because these people do know people like me well, and people like you well.

Honestly Mike I am in awe of your genious, you are an amazingly studied, articulate, wise and reasonable person. People like yourself in many ways represent the best of the best at what can be thrown in the way and affect the balance, create a better outcome, change the world for the better.

The darn problem is, these guys know how to harness that and actually get it to work out for something better for them but worse for everyone else.

Israel, whether the Jews of the world like it, or the Christians of the world like it, or the Muslims of the world like it, or the Zionists of the world like it, the agnostics or the athiests of the world like it is a 'lightening rod' for something that is in many ways bigger than the sum total of all the people who find something near and dear and special in it, including those many different types of people who call it home or want to call it home.

The United States of America to a lesser extent is also a 'lightening rod' for something far bigger than it's amazingly diverse populace and many competing ideals are.

The world truly is on the cusp of a major change, few people would deny that anywhere in the world at this stage.

Some people are ahead of the curve Mike, you are one of those people, but like anyone ahead of the curve you are a voice crying in the wilderness and all you can really do is keep spreading your message with as much patience and good manners as you can possibly muster and for what it's worth I think you do a great job of that.

It will all eventually come out in the wash it always does.

There really is a very well organized, exceedingly wealthy, incredibly disciplined and interconnected group of people with a heirachy and clear chain of command that are using these things as a catalyst towards a goal that they do not and will not share with practically anyone, even the coconspirators they parcel out bits and pieces to play and carry out.

Out thinking them is the challenge of a lifetime, their current goals are the culmination of several generations and lifetimes worth of work and ambition.

There might not be a way to stop armegeddon so many people are intent upon seeing it come to fruition.

All I can say is listen to your inner instincts, trust in them, do what they tell you too, and maybe with enough Mikes involved it won't work out that way.

I don't know. The reality on the ground is the reality on the ground. The fog of war obscures a lot of things, history and players, motives and goals as well.

I am almost inclined to say let the ultra-Orthodox Hebrews whom Jerusalem and Israel means the most too and are most fanatic about it, have it and Israel exclusively and remove every other Jewish, Christian, Zionist, Muslim and International element from it as the best means to keep it from becoming a touch stone to armegeddon...

Alas you see how passionate all these sides are though about wanting their piece of it, controlling their piece of it and making it about them exclusively.

In the military it's called a cluster expletive!

Any Cavalry Officer will tell you there is no way to avoid getting covered in what you step in, accidentally or not.

Keep your faith Mike be true to yourself and with luck it will see you through friend.

Once I had a Jewish boss and him and this other Hebrew guy started badmouthing people who belive in Santa Claus. They seemed like they wanted to spit on them. It is sad when a few Jesus haters make Judism look bad.