What if there is No God? At all!

1. If there was no God, then the ultimate authority in our lives would be the government under which we live. The statement in the American Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." would be irrelevant, and so would the basis of the Bill of Rights. So government would have no constraints.

2. If there was no God, then where would your sense of morality come from? Some in this thread say it would be genetic, but human actions, and the actions of our closest animal relatives say otherwise. Chimpanzees are known to kill other chimpanzees that are not part of their family/tribe. They are known to kill the babies of rivals within their tribe/family. So where is the genetic instinct to protect a small child? In humans, there is usually a strong bond between the parents and child, but even that bond can be broken. Look at how many babies, and children have been killed at the hands of their parents.

3. If there was no God then people would be free to decide for themselves what is morally OK. Would rape be a crime if some people felt the need to rape and humiliate others to make themselves feel powerful? Would robbery be a crime if your chosen profession was to steal from people? In some Native American tribes stealing from a competing tribe was considered an act of bravery. I don't believe that a world without God would be a heaven on earth. It would look more like the old Mad Max movies and instead, it would be hell on earth.

4. So what would happen if scientist were able to say without a doubt that God did not exist? Our current social structures would collapse, and humans would been living under a very controlling centralized government like the one depicted in the book 1984. Or the world would descend into broken groups where each group decided what was moral and what wasn't, and where might makes right. Which one would you prefer?

*Update*

Remember please, this is not debating god him/herself. Just a thought provoking answer needing question, as to how the displayed scenario would affect you closely.

I won't be able to comment back since i'm working, and well it's my birthday so i'll be busy all night.

I do look forward to taking some interesting notes though!

Thanks Amagnon,

We all feel the need to brandish evil

My son and I often hike downtown armed with sticks, swords really, to slay dragons. We were hacking our way through a particularly nasty nest of viscious dragons when their King (a fire truck with it's siren roaring) came crashing down towards us. My son, rushed to the corner to intercept the King and slashed it with one swing of his sword. He raised his stick high up over his head and reveled in his victory over evil. He turned around and said to me, "Dad, we're safe now."

[edit on 11-7-2009 by Rotwang]

I would want my money back...

Originally posted by Antsoair
1. If there was no God, then the ultimate authority in our lives would be the government under which we live. The statement in the American Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." would be irrelevant, and so would the basis of the Bill of Rights. So government would have no constraints.

First of all I think you misunderstood, this thread if I am not mistaken is supposed to be about your personal reactions, not the worlds, but I have to disagree with what you say anyways. The ultimate authority in our lives today is the government, think about it if you wanted to do something illegal that was commanded by God, you do not get pardoned just because you say it was from God. And the declaration of independence would just be interpreted differently, our creator being nature or some nonliving life force. In fact God as referred to in the Declaration does not specifically mean your version, God can mean many different things not necessarily a living being.

2. If there was no God, then where would your sense of morality come from? Some in this thread say it would be genetic, but human actions, and the actions of our closest animal relatives say otherwise. Chimpanzees are known to kill other chimpanzees that are not part of their family/tribe. They are known to kill the babies of rivals within their tribe/family. So where is the genetic instinct to protect a small child? In humans, there is usually a strong bond between the parents and child, but even that bond can be broken. Look at how many babies, and children have been killed at the hands of their parents.

This has been argued a thousand times and more where morality comes from. Morality is personal end of story. Morality does not come from genes or from any supernatural guy in the sky. Animals and humans have some similarities and some differences (differing between each animal and each human). And there are also many instances of empathy seen in nature as well as apathy.

3. If there was no God then people would be free to decide for themselves what is morally OK. Would rape be a crime if some people felt the need to rape and humiliate others to make themselves feel powerful? Would robbery be a crime if your chosen profession was to steal from people? In some Native American tribes stealing from a competing tribe was considered an act of bravery. I don't believe that a world without God would be a heaven on earth. It would look more like the old Mad Max movies and instead, it would be hell on earth.

Society would keep its structure for the most part because we are mostly a rational species. Most of us would see the benefit of keeping our current moral values and for those that are not as rational and lose their morals after such an event they would have to accept the consequences of their actions.

Well if it turns out that way. I don't think life would change much, but I would feel myself hopeless in life.


Btw I would have to accept the fact that we are a product of evolution and.. think about how much of money is wasted on churches if it turned out that way.


1) Do you think you're day to day life would change.

No. It wouldn't.

2) Would you change your behaviour.

Yes. I would...May bye stop reading religious books. But come one,
if there was no supernatural power then why do we need religion in our
schools? .

3) Would you be harsher to people.

No.. Even if there is no hell, and if i go rob someone, steal or promote violence against someone i still would feel me bad.. Because its like wrong..
You know.. have a guilty conscience would remind you all the time. You would just feel ashamed when there is so many good people and people would look down on you.

4) Would you strive harder in life, knowing your legacy is all there is?

Yes.

5) Would anything change, would you continue on praying, knowing 100% in your heart you're praying to nothing, but your own imagination.

Well if praying doesn't help why pray?? .

[edit on 11-7-2009 by 2Unknown]

reply to post by cancerian42


I suppose you are correct that this thread is about how it would affect you personally. But I tend to think of things in terms of how they affect society because the society I live in affects how I live my life. So I hope you will excuse me if I look more towards they way I believe it would affect all people instead of just myself.

But just for the sake of argument, I would like to respond. Of course doing something illegal and saying God told you to do it will not get you off. But like it or not, our legal system, our sense of justice, and our government principles evolved through a world dominated by Christianity. So I would still argue that much that would change if God was proven to not exist.

I also disagree when you say, "he declaration of independence would just be interpreted differently, our creator being nature or some nonliving life force" If there is no God there is no creator. How can nature be a nonliving life force? It is living or it isn't and isn't a nature as a life force just another name for God?

When you say, "In fact God as referred to in the Declaration does not specifically mean your version." I would like to know just what you think my version of God is? I don't remember mentioning that. Perhaps you are making a judgment on me based on your own prejudice? And as far as morals go, humans have shown a wide variety of morals without a whole lot of empathy. If you believe that your morals are not a learned product of the family, community, society, and times that you grew up in then I think you are kidding yourself.

Originally posted by Antsoair
reply to post by cancerian42

 

But like it or not, our legal system, our sense of justice, and our government principles evolved through a world dominated by Christianity. So I would still argue that much that would change if God was proven to not exist.

Yes, but also America was created to be a land of freedom including freedom of religion therefore it wouldn't matter if God in the sense of a live supernatural being didn't exist.

I also disagree when you say, "he declaration of independence would just be interpreted differently, our creator being nature or some nonliving life force" If there is no God there is no creator. How can nature be a nonliving life force? It is living or it isn't and isn't a nature as a life force just another name for God?

I was meaning creator in a not so traditional sense, with God being interpreted as a nonliving thing. A creator doesn't have to be alive, causes create effects. And I wasn't saying nature was the nonliving life force I was just saying the declaration can be interpreted in different ways by different people. And yes you are correct that nature or life force among many many other interpretations can be called someone's God even though they are not living beings.

When you say, "In fact God as referred to in the Declaration does not specifically mean your version." I would like to know just what you think my version of God is? I don't remember mentioning that. Perhaps you are making a judgment on me based on your own prejudice? And as far as morals go, humans have shown a wide variety of morals without a whole lot of empathy. If you believe that your morals are not a learned product of the family, community, society, and times that you grew up in then I think you are kidding yourself.

Everyone has their own version of a god or gods or none at all and you seemed to have at least one version, but I wasn't making an assumption as to what you believed, just using context clues, forgive me if I was wrong. And about the morals you may have a different perspective as to humans' actions then what I have had. And as for my own morals I am not quite sure what to make of them yet, but I assure you I can think for myself.

reply to post by cancerian42


I didn't mean to suggest that you couldn't think for yourself. I meant to say that most of human behavior is learned and that includes our morals. Of course in America, you are free to accept or reject the morals of the community, but they still affect you.

As for me, if science one day proved that there was no God period. Then I would have to wonder why we are even alive and talking about this subject.

Where did the energy that created the big bang come from? What is energy anyway? In other words, I would be back to the same questions that humans have been asking since humans first learned to formulate complex ideas.

To image that the entire universe is a mindless, formless, combination of subatomic particles that joined to form complex chemicals that came from nowhere is as unbelievable an event as it is for an atheist to think that some old man sitting in a chair one day decided to have some fun...

reply to post by Antsoair

Anything is possible.
2nd line

There's a few posts in this thread suggest that without god, we would have no sense of morality.

The truth is that theists will pick and choose from their books which morality to apply. The bible states that the punishment for adultery is being stoned to death. Why don't christians apply this moral point?

Most religions subjugate women in way that I would not consider moral.

The only people who are able to correctly and succinctly apply morality are atheists. This is because only the atheist can take a balanced and unbiased decision.

[edit on 7/11/2009 by mithrawept]

Originally posted by mithrawept


The only people who are able to correctly and succinctly apply morality are atheists. This is because only the atheist can take a balanced and unbiased decision.

[edit on 7/11/2009 by mithrawept]

Yes, one of those balanced and unbiased atheists was Margaret Sanger, who wrote several books on eugenics, and lectured on the subject. After all, there ARE too many people in the world. So why not figure out how to get rid of the undesirables and keep only the ones YOU consider worth keeping?

reply to post by mithrawept


I don't agree, Atheist are humans just like Theist are. You are right the morals change but not because some atheist with a superior frame of reference made a change. Changes have come as part of the evolution of humanity.

I am not saying that religious institutions are any better either. I'm just saying that they are different. You can look at the Soviet Union and other Stalinist regimes as an example. They were societies based on atheism. Look at how many of their own citizens were murdered by the wise atheist under communism.

My point still stands, morals would change a lot because the underpinning belief in them would change.

Originally posted by mithrawept
There's a few posts in this thread suggest that without god, we would have no sense of morality.

The truth is that theists will pick and choose from their books which morality to apply. The bible states that the punishment for adultery is being stoned to death. Why don't christians apply this moral point?

Most religions subjugate women in way that I would not consider moral.

The only people who are able to correctly and succinctly apply morality are atheists. This is because only the atheist can take a balanced and unbiased decision.

Morality would be the least of your worries. What people fail to realize is they are actually god in part. It is the part of the father within you that gives you a consciousness to begin with. Without god everyone would be like a bunch of robots without free will and choice.

There would be no understanding at all.

The part about atheists is just a bunch of crap. Atheists and Christians operate in the same exact mindset, they do not know and they do not understand and they only accept what people say.

When in the world are people going to realize that God does not equal religion?

[edit on 7/11/2009 by badmedia]

1) Do you think you're day to day life would change.

Not particularly, other than as a result of the changes in other people who would be more affected by it.

2) Would you change your behaviour.

I don't think so.

3) Would you be harsher to people.

No. My sense of kindness is not attached to fear of being punished. I don't require an external authority to decide for me how I choose to interact with others.

would you continue on praying...

I would continue praying, but...

...knowing 100% in your heart
you're praying to nothing, but your own imagination.

...this is not how I would internalize it. I would not be praying "to nothing" or "to my imagination." I would be praying to a particular "thing/idea/concept," whether or not that "thing/idea/concept" was capable of receiving my prayer.

Think of it this way...some people talk to their pets, right? And some people pat the dashboard of their cars and say gently "come on, you're a good car, start for me....you can do it...good car..." Do these people really believe that their words are understood by the car? Probably not. But what they are doing is praying. To the car. At the car. It is intended communication, whether or not the intended recipient is capable of receiving it.

That's all prayer is. Intended telepathic communication with an "other." When one prays "to god" one is intending telepathic communication with god. But prayer is possible to recipients other than god. Again, when you tell your car it's a nice car and ask it please to start, what you're doing is essentially prayer.

What would you're life be like, if Atheism won, There
is No God, at all in the universe.

It's difficult to answer this without addressing the question of what is this "god" thing you're talking about that we've proved doesn't exist. To me personally, saying that god doesn't exist would be more like saying "the network is not self aware" than "there is no bearded man in the sky."

In a way, the non-existence of god might be a relief. It would be ultimate vindication that there is no authority external to myself in a "proper" position to decide what is "proper." Whether I choose to waste my time playing computer games, or build mighty civilizations and saves lives, or kill and destroy...there would be no external criteria to compare to with which to judge those decisions. In a way that would be very liberating.

But at the same time I don't see the existence of god as being mutually exclusive with there being no such judgement.


I find pleasing the idea that there is absolutely no external authority to decide these things. The idea that even the statement "whatever you decide is ok" is silly because saying it is ok is itself a judgement. And that there is no thing upon which to base any such judgement other than the free will of our own choice.

But I think I understand how some might find that unnerving.

at the end of the day, you can analyze god to the ends of the universe..

like.. if we were created by aliens, who created the aliens? the planets.. the stars..

it was all created, and for that, you need someone doing the creating

there is no way to eliminate god, no matter how far you go. not saying he's an old man and is beating you with a cancer stick, but still..

the more you look, the more there has to be an original creator of everything

Jadette
You don't need Religion if you have Empathy.
The ethic of reciprocity is all we need.

Ok, but you seem to be suggesting that there is some sort of "need" for certain results. Sure, I agree that we don't need an external "god" to choose to be nice to people...but why do you assume that there is some fundamental value to being nice to people?

Yes, an "ethic of reciprocity" could be sufficient for people to choose to behave a certain way...but upon what do you base this assumption that the behaviors that you want, the behaviors that some people need god and others need an "ethic of reciprocity" for...what's the basis for the judgement that these behaviors are desireable?

The idea that there is absolutely no external thing upon which to make any such judgement, be it god, or morals, or anything else...I find that idea very pleasing.

If THAT is what you mean by "there is no god" then I for one would feel very liberated.

Wouldn't change my life too much, I try to be as "good" a person as possible without any theistic beliefs - just because I think being nice to people makes the world a bit better and that benefits me... so kinda selfish there of me.

I'd just worry about losing traditional holidays from work.

If they were able to finally say that all religions are based on a lie, I would celebrate.

I mean, I would feel sorry for those who would have their ideologies shattered, but it would (I hope) eventually enable us to progress to realizing that we are all biologically equal as human beings, born on earth, living on earth together with no other purpose than to do so, really.

Personally, I don't believe morals come from religion. Yes, religion has helped many parents teach morals to their kids, by making them fear justice from some higher power. I kind of think though, when people are involved in an organized religion, they give too much authority to their religious leader, who can project his/her own opinions about what is 'moral' into their sermons and compel their congregation to do things that are not actually very moral.

I believe that my own morals come from respecting other people in general, and understanding that quite often life sucks and I shouldn't make it harder for anyone else. I guess my morals come from my conscience, but I don't remember ever being taught them... besides my grandparents teaching me that "Jesus loves all the little children of the world" song and telling me "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you".

Rather than saying there is no purpose to anything if there is no God, I would say there should be more purpose to everything. Life I think is about wonder, especially if there is no God. That makes everything more miraculous to me, that means we are so lucky to exist.

Yes, life often sucks, but if there is no God, no predetermination to any of this, doesn't that make your actions even more important? Doesn't it mean that we have the ultimate power to make an impact on others and on our society? You can create your own purpose, rather than "find it". If we're all here by random chance with no real reason, doesn't that mean that we're all just victims of chance and it's even more important that we be compassionate toward one another?

But hey, that's just my opinion... I could probably rant endlessly.

I'll let it be known though, I personally do like to believe there is some sort of force at work beyond my control, but if I don't call it a 'Godhead', I can just call it the force of Chance that interacts with us all and is affected by us all, affecting others in turn. When something good happens to me, I'll still say Thank You, because nothing can happen to me that isn't connected to the actions of others in some way or another.

reply to post by eMachine


Jesus says that one can believe "for the very works sake". Now, I am not a christian, so I am not saying that means to "believe in Jesus" as a person. Jesus says those who believe will keep the commandments. The OT says, that those who keep the commandments do so out of understanding.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

So, even if you don't believe in god or Jesus etc, you can still believe for the very works sake. Meaning, you can still understand why his actions and "way" is the correct way to live.

And when it comes to the subject of morality, that is what people generally do without realizing it. Now they don't keep them 100%, but if we were to sit here and listed all the "moral" things we can see and understand as being right or wrong, then you will pretty much find that Jesus(not the church, not religion) is an example of someone who is following that.

Such is why it kind of drives me a bit nuts with arguments between atheists and Jesus. They argue over what is accepted as truth, and they ignore what is important in the process - understanding which is available to anyone who seeks it. On and on the bible talks about understanding and wisdom rather than acceptance, and I see people wanting me to accept that either the way the church says is true, or the way the church says is false. They are the same thing to me.

I find it a bit humorous(not in a bad way) that you mention god and the word "chance". Because it is because of god that there is chance, choice and such to begin with. This universe is based on action and reaction. Laws that are repeatable in a lab over and over. It has no room for choice or chance.

God is the "observer" of quantum physics. Soon as you throw consciousness and choice in the mix, it becomes taboo and our basic foundation of science breaks down as things are no longer repeatable over and over when choice enters into it. No god, no choice, no observer, no life, just a bunch of patterns happening over and over like a machine does.

You can't even generate a truly random number in this universe.