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Thousands protest in Iran, defying crackdown vow

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posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by john124
It's interesting how the deniers of events in Iran from the perspective of this thread's source just disappear whenever they are asked anything remotely challenging to them.

And besides, these true believers don’t live in an evidence-based world. They live in fantasy; it’s the only way they can be shown solid proof their claims are wrong and yet still cleave to them.

You really need to examine your internal criteria for accepting evidence.

[edit on 10-7-2009 by john124]


John what you don't get is that it's pointless debating a pointless subject.

There is scant little credible news coming out of Iran and the news that reaches you is aimed to how you think as a commercial and political enterprise.

Yes there are Iranians who dislike the regime.

There are though Iranians who love the regime.

Just like here in America there are Americans who hate the Administration.

Just like here in America there are those who love the Administration.

One man's hero is another man's villian, and the lack of credible information makes it hard to debate.

Our government has objectives in Iran it has since 1952, and history clearly documents them. Our government and it's media is going to share with you only as much as fits their agenda and objectives.

Likewise the Iranian Government has objectives in Iran even more credible ones since of course it's the Iranian and not the American government and of course because it's Iran and not America.

They too are going to share only as much information that suits their objectives and purposes and in that process our government is going to block some of that information, is going to twist some of that information and make sure some of it gets lost in translation.

Meanwhile the people in the street in Tehran and through Iran are just as divided in what they want as we are divided here in our own country what we want.

You don't have all the facts and you don't have access to all the facts, you have access to the facts though that you want to hear, from people who want you to hear them, because they feel it's in their interest and suits their agenda to have you hear them.

You have been on ATS for a few weeks basically since this started, full of passion for something you don't even have the basic inkling of the long standing history of deciet, lies, manipulation and violence that London and Washington have used for going on a century on oil wealthy Iran.

There are regimes 10 times worse than the Iranian Republic in Africa you never hear about because (a) an American or European country has the Oil and Mineral Contracts secured and doesn't care that the regime is dictatorial and abuses human rights or (b) the nation has no wealth to pillage and isn't worth a single bullet casing or a can of news reel film as a result.

You are being emotionally manipulated John by people who understand your intellectual limitations, some of us are going to choose not to debate you because yours is simply an emotion based not factual based argument, and unless you had taken a vow of poverty and were a sworn agnostic, with no state to call home, with a vast intelligence network on the ground in Iran of similiar individuals the only facts you will ever have are things that appeal to you emotionally and percptually that have not one little thing to do with the reality on the ground in Iran.

It's called misdirection and smoke and mirrors my friend, and because you believe it, and because you feel you are intelligent and wise, doesn't mean intelligent and wise people are in fact going to believe it and react emotionally in the same fashion.

That's why no one is debating you or at least I am not because basically it comes down to a Hanzel and Gretell was the witch really going to eat them or just use them to clean out the oven, or scare them into not wandering in the woods type of argument going.

Fairy tales for fairy tales.




posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 04:50 PM
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I say take notes boys and girls....this is comming to a town near you. Our leaders smell of dodo also.



posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 08:13 PM
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John what you don't get is that it's pointless debating a pointless subject.


Really, and so that means people like you want me to respect a view that is even more pointless, and has zero credibility.


There is scant little credible news coming out of Iran and the news that reaches you is aimed to how you think as a commercial and political enterprise.


Again you fail to see that people can get news out of Iran through friends and their families.


Yes there are Iranians who dislike the regime.

There are though Iranians who love the regime.


This proves you are so clueless. If you knew anything about the history of the regime, you would know that is completely false. Majority Iranian's who are educated or young hate the regime.


Just like here in America there are Americans who hate the Administration.

Just like here in America there are those who love the Administration.


Oh look you saddos want to compare everything to the US again. What a completely pointless comparison.


One man's hero is another man's villian, and the lack of credible information makes it hard to debate.


You can say that again, nobody has anything worthwhile to contribute for their CIA theories. They don't even think that much of their theories to outline them properly. They believe because they want to believe, not because of evidence. If you can only base this on history and not the present as well, then you don't have much of a theory.


Our government has objectives in Iran it has since 1952, and history clearly documents them. Our government and it's media is going to share with you only as much as fits their agenda and objectives.


Of course, so has Britain much longer, but that is not proof that interference is taking place. If I don't get my information from western media, then how can I be influenced by an agenda? I can use my information I have obtained from Iran to confirm what is being said in the western media to be correct or incorrect.

Or are you going to go all woo-woo on me and say the US govt. controls "everything" - Does that include every person in Iran, every person I know, me, and even all of my electronic devices. Oooooh should I be scared



Likewise the Iranian Government has objectives in Iran even more credible ones since of course it's the Iranian and not the American government and of course because it's Iran and not America.


Did you just make that up off the top of your .? It sounds like you did! As it makes no sense at all!
I know the regime lies to Iranian people, so I know they aren't a credible source. I chose to believe family of my friends. You chose to believe regime officials who you don't even know, and might I add over all western media, all western leaders and all evidence obtained through 3rd parties.

You are claiming this has all been falsified, without anyone in the west speaking out with any credibility and no evidence for it. Who's the one jumping to wild conclusions... you silly fool.


They too are going to share only as much information that suits their objectives and purposes and in that process our government is going to block some of that information, is going to twist some of that information and make sure some of it gets lost in translation.


Same old excuse, somehow the govt. managed to lock away all of the evidence and persuaded everybody to keep quiet. And they have some magical control over everyone. That's just not feasible! In all coups by the CIA evidence has been obtained and people speak out. Not here!!! Therefore it's not happening!


Meanwhile the people in the street in Tehran and through Iran are just as divided in what they want as we are divided here in our own country what we want.


Yes they are divided, but are mostly against the regime. The power cut instigated by the opposition required a large amount of Iranian's in Tehran, and even from poorer areas who were traditionally Ahmadinejad supporters, therefore showing he has little support left.

Have you not yet noticed that what I say makes much more sense, and I don't oversimplify the situation. And I don't have to fill in spaces with silly analogies about the US. As I actually know about Iran, and I don't see the need for making pointless comparisons, where there is nothing similar to compare.

I dare you to actually discover real knowledge on Iran.


You don't have all the facts and you don't have access to all the facts, you have access to the facts though that you want to hear, from people who want you to hear them, because they feel it's in their interest and suits their agenda to have you hear them.


Errr no I don't have all the facts. I didn't say anywhere that I did. Hmmm.... that doesn't mean you do either. In fact you haven't demonstrated any facts here at all, just some silly wittering about western agendas that you believe because the regime says it's taking place. Do you base your beliefs on anything more than assumptions, bad logic & Iranian propaganda & lies (shown to be so from many facts).

The facts I do have access to are much more reliable to me than anything you have attempted to demonstrate even to yourself or your fellow believers.


[edit on 10-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 08:56 PM
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You have been on ATS for a few weeks basically since this started, full of passion for something you don't even have the basic inkling of the long standing history of deciet, lies, manipulation and violence that London and Washington have used for going on a century on oil wealthy Iran.


Actually I've been reading here for much longer than a few weeks. And what does it actually prove that I've been here for a few weeks writing threads? Absolutely nothing! Only in your mind of baseless assumptions would that mean something more.

And yes I do understand histories between the west and Iran, and I also understand from an ordinary Iranian's viewpoint how they perceive the illegal regime in power. This allows me to interpret the situation from all angles. You base everything you say on assumptions, not just with Iran, but also with me, and you assume everyone else just doesn't understand if they disagree with you.

And you fail to understand the concept that some people actually understand the middle east and Iran in particular much more than you. And you also fail to grasp the underlying issues that are going on in Iran that are provided by many sources.

Previous western influences in Iran does not automatically equate to current western influences without either a). Basing opinions on assumption after assumption, or b). showing the world some form of evidence whether it be anecdotal or actual proof.

Don't you see the flaws in your belief system.... if you don't require any form of evidence, then you are going on nothing but a gut-feeling. And so apart from this gut-feeling, you have no other criteria with which to benchmark your theory. And in circumstances where you are wrong, you have no way to actually make this correct determination.

I recommend you travel to Iran if you feel the regime is responsible enough to not arrest you, torture you for no reason, and even execute you!


There are regimes 10 times worse than the Iranian Republic in Africa you never hear about because (a) an American or European country has the Oil and Mineral Contracts secured and doesn't care that the regime is dictatorial and abuses human rights or (b) the nation has no wealth to pillage and isn't worth a single bullet casing or a can of news reel film as a result.


Again more assumptions as to why these don't get mentioned as often.

For a start the BBC does report quite often from African countries & their harsh lives on it's news 24 channel, so your belief is quashed instantaneously.

Don't you realise factors such as availability of video cameras, mobile phones, Internet services also play a part. If Iranian's are willing to send us photos and videos, then of course we are going to want to see them.

You don't seem to realise that many Iranian's are educated, Persians are so different from their arab neighbours. You would know that if you knew more about Iran. So, reasonable and educated people such as myself in the west would want to listen to what they have to say more than what the majority of Africans have to say, from extremely poor backgrounds who are less educated. As Iranian's have more in common with westerners. It's not too difficult to understand!?

I notice all of your understanding of the world is based on their relationship to the west from a typical western perspective, which is all so misinterpreting. You can't expect to understand the whole situation by just looking at the issues involvement western interests and benefits. This is just part of a much larger picture.


You are being emotionally manipulated John by people who......... ... .................... ....... facts you will ever have are things that appeal to you emotionally and percptually that have not one little thing to do with the reality on the ground in Iran.


More assumptions eh?? You just never stop with these presumptions do you. You only show arrogance.

You chose not to debate any issues I bring up because you don't have any knowledge about Iran with which to counter them with. That is exactly how it is!

The rest of this paragraph has already been dealt with thoroughly.


It's called misdirection and smoke and mirrors my friend, and because you believe it, and because you feel you are intelligent and wise, doesn't mean intelligent and wise people are in fact going to believe it and react emotionally in the same fashion.


I'm still waiting for something more than assumptions from you. Im reacting to facts I have obtained. You are regurgitating what you believe in which you haven't even seen any evidence of. Your reaction may be emotional, it may not be, but it's definitely not logical & it's definitely ignorant. It's quite sad that you feel so important that your government would want to trick you into an emotional response.

I can feel sorrow for the loss of innocent lives as were depicted in youtube videos, yet remain level .ed to analyse the situation from all angles using both my knowledge on the ground to determine the accuracy of both news media - in both Iran and the West.

On the contrary your response is only emotional and is shown by your non-existant attempt to provide any meaningful input towards your beliefs, and this appears to show you have deep resentment towards your government so that you base your beliefs on assumption after assumption, which is originally based on the original assumption that your govt. is conning you 24/7


That's why no one is debating you or at least I am not because basically it comes down to a Hanzel and Gretell was the witch really going to eat them or just use them to clean out the oven, or scare them into not wandering in the woods type of argument going.


Yes it's because so many in the west are fooled by these silly conspiracy theories like yourself. The origins of these conspiracy theories are likely from overexaggerated government distrust, and fueled more recently by Iranian regime propaganda since 1979 and Press TV imbeciles with very little back-bone or credibility for discussion, much in the same way as you.


Fairy tales for fairy tales.


Yes... that how "your" "belief system" operates.... assumptions based on lies, based on false logic. That makes great fairy tales for your imagination, but that's all they are! Otherwise idiot follows idiot and so the chain of idiots such as yourself goes on and on and on and on and on and on!


[edit on 10-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 10:31 PM
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John here is what you don't get.

(1) You have no way and neither does anyone else to conduct an accurate scientific poll inside of Iran of what the Iranian people do actually want.

(2) If your friends where Islamic Fundamentalists who liked Ahmedinejad you would be getting an entirely different version of events from inside Iran.

(3) There is such a thing as journalism school and journalistic indegrity and there is a great chance that neither you nor your friends have gone to journalism school or understand the concept of journalistic indegrity.

(4) Reactions are based on emotions, Responses are based on a thorough examination of all the facts and all factors taken into consideration.

(5) Clearly the Western Media as well as Western Governments do not like Islamic Fundamentalism, Sharia Law, Islamic Theocracies or Ahmadenijad, as such would you really expect fair and unballanced reporting from them?

(6) Western journalists have been barred from Iran in part because Iran knows that their reporting will not be fair and unbiased.

(7) Some of us are old enough to remember when there was such a thing as fair and unbiased reporting, where reporters did not attempt to editorialize the news they were reporting or to draw politically correct conclusions from it, but were simply like the good Detectives on Dragnet, just the facts ma'am we are just interested in the facts.

(8) If you have not read about Operation Ajax in 1952 or all the other coups the CIA has staged over the years all over the world you really aren't even qualified to do anything but be a shill for people emotionally manipulating you to their own agenda.

(9) If you think that MI6 or the CIA or the MOSSAD actually reserve some little section in the New York Times to break down the 'proof' of what they are doing right now today, you obviously don't understand what an Intelligence Agency is.

(10) My Twitter Profile is set to GMT -3:30 Tehran Time as a measure to help anyone in Iran who might be trying to get information out of Iran by increasing the number of accounts they have to sift through to do that.

(11) I am not actually in Tehran though, but if I Twittered you or anyone else through my Twitter account and said some rediculous unsubstantiated thing without being a journalist or using journalistic indegrity as long as it appealed to your world view and emotions you would take it as fact.

(12) There is little chance you can even identify all the ellements in play in this little game that range from the Pavlavi Family, to remnants of the SAVAK, the CIA, MI6, MOSSAD, 4 different Political Cantidates inside of Iran and their followers and supporters, and three different Mullahs each either wanting to retain the title of Supreme Leader or to become it, and two different Islamic Sects, not to mention the Russians, and a few different major Corporate interests that would benefit greatly should the West's Agenda of retunring the Pavlavi family to power be realized, which is in fact what the West wants and you don't even know enough about that or Iran or the history of Iran to even know that's why the West is driving this whole thing.

(13) You are likely either a Pavlavi supporter, a rabid Zionist, a Christian Fundamentalist, or just a pie in the sky dreamer who wears your heart on your sleave and thinks with it too.

(14) Your timing to choose to become a member and the topics you pursue with such zeal or indicative of someone with a specific political agenda.

(15) Your inability to examine history and act and behave in a rational and annalytical manner and your desire to belittle those that do is further indicative of someone with an agenda.

In fact John all you have done is taken some recycled pictures that the mainstream media keeps showing over and over again with different captions and different days and an article written by a reporter who if you read the article said in it "I am not in Iran but I just know that the Iranians would have done something big on this date because anniversaries mean a lot to them and no way would they miss this opportunity" and then further speculated it would be much bigger of course but the Government is making it hard.

That's not "facts" that's pure heresay and speculation. It's not journalism because it is just heresay and speculation. It lacks no integridy John and while you probably live in Israel, and might live in London, and could even live here in America...

Real Americans, true Americans have loftier standards and ideals than that. They require better information than that.

You see John people who are acting impetuously and emotionally based on preconcieved notions and prejudices with an agenda minus facts are in fact NO better than the people in the regimes that they want to see replaced and fall, and in fact they are usually worse because they will stoop to any level and do anything to make their Agenda realized.

20 years from now, the most of the truth about what is going on in Iran will come out. That's how long it usually takes John for all the facts to shake out.

One things for certain though, that book will likely have the same 10 pictures that the Media keeps changing the dates and captions on every other day, only it will feature all the people who were spying, lying and manipulating all of this, either proudly talking about how they succeeded or crying about how they failed.

That's the real world John.

By the way you seem to have miss understood everything I put in my last post you were so busy trying to twist it into something bad and awful.

Real Americans, and realy fair people, will want to wait to get real facts before making real decisions and you can twist that how ever you want to and believe what ever you want to and it's very doubtful you will influence anyone in the process that isn't already drunk on the same brand of kool aide you are.



posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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John here is what you don't get.

(1) You have no way and neither does anyone else to conduct an accurate scientific poll inside of Iran of what the Iranian people do actually want.


And how does that prove your theories?


(2) If your friends where Islamic Fundamentalists who liked Ahmedinejad you would be getting an entirely different version of events from inside Iran.


Oversimplifying again aren't you. My contacts don't just sit in their house all day, they do know something called a general consensus and they have a valid opinion. much more valid to me than yours. You have a chance to make yours more valid by saying more than junk.

It's true I cannot know that I'm 100% right, but evidence I have learnt suggests it is likely to be exactly how I have described.

Similarly many people haven't seen Pluto with their own eyes, yet we know it exists.


(3) There is such a thing as journalism school and journalistic indegrity and there is a great chance that neither you nor your friends have gone to journalism school or understand the concept of journalistic indegrity.


Indegrity?!!
Oh you mean integrity, and you're trying to lecture me on something you can't even spell. You muppet!


(4) Reactions are based on emotions, Responses are based on a thorough examination of all the facts and all factors taken into consideration.


I've made the correct reaction and the correct response from the facts. Not everyone runs away with their emotions. On the other hand you believe in something based entirely on an emotional response.


(5) Clearly the Western Media as well as Western Governments do not like Islamic Fundamentalism, Sharia Law, Islamic Theocracies or Ahmadenijad, as such would you really expect fair and unballanced reporting from them?


Ehhh, I don't even base my view from western media entirely so that point is moot.


(6) Western journalists have been barred from Iran in part because Iran knows that their reporting will not be fair and unbiased.


If they do think that, then it's not legitimate to arrest journalists over that. Or maybe, just maybe they don't want the world to see them beating their own people.


(7) Some of us are old enough to remember when there was such a thing as fair and unbiased reporting, where reporters did not attempt to editorialize the news they were reporting or to draw politically correct conclusions from it, but were simply like the good Detectives on Dragnet, just the facts ma'am we are just interested in the facts.


I never said western media is perfectly balanced, but the Iran issue has not been flipped over 180 degrees to say the opposite to what is true.


(8) If you have not read about Operation Ajax in 1952 or all the other coups the CIA has staged over the years all over the world you really aren't even qualified to do anything but be a shill for people emotionally manipulating you to their own agenda.


I don't deny these past CIA coups. What evidence do you have that a coup is taking place in Iran now? Can you actually make a case without leading yourself to making an assumption that the CIA haven't learnt from their mistakes. Obviously the coup has not worked then?! Are the CIA so useless? Or is it just the Iranian people cannot fight this regime successfully with peaceful protests?

I've already described how this type of outcome of protesting can occur due to bad sentiment between people and the regime.

If you know that's it a coup, then I'm sure you know well what's actually been occurring in Iran over the past 4 weeks.

If there's a coup as you suggest, then why hasn't the regime paraded it's many captives with evidence of this. Why would the regime not contact the UN with details and evidence? The UN criticised Israel in the Gaza war, so the UN aren't kept quiet by the CIA/MOSSAD.

The regime has made so many accusations and changed its story over deaths and blamed different people on different days on state TV in Iran, that they have become a joke. A joke beyond all belief. They can't even lie properly or convincingly. obviously all the parties accused are looking at each other bemused wondering what the hell is going on.



(9) If you think that MI6 or the CIA or the MOSSAD actually reserve some little section in the New York Times to break down the 'proof' of what they are doing right now today, you obviously don't understand what an Intelligence Agency is.


Hmmm I never said that.... but I would expect whistleblowers and some form of anecdotal evidence to be available by now.

Can you also explain this -> www.guardian.co.uk...

The Basij control the hospitals, or are the CIA ops super-invincible so they can go in and out past basij checkpoints, or even employ the whole hospital staff and make them all lie. You would be entering woo-woo land there because that would require mind-control of the whole hospital. If they have that, then why not just mind-control the supreme leader and the president.

I suppose next you'll say every single newspaper in the west is infiltrated by CIA, and that all phone call interviews between doctors and journalists are faked. You see how many people would have to be in on this if this was faked. Too many to keep a lid on it.


(10) My Twitter Profile is set to GMT -3:30 Tehran Time as a measure to help anyone in Iran who might be trying to get information out of Iran by increasing the number of accounts they have to sift through to do that.


Well done. That's one more account for the regime to search through first hopefully.


(11) I am not actually in Tehran though, but if I Twittered you or anyone else through my Twitter account and said some rediculous unsubstantiated thing without being a journalist or using journalistic indegrity as long as it appealed to your world view and emotions you would take it as fact.


Uhh yeah I guessed you weren't in Tehran.

Again you misinterpret what I've been saying. I haven't been using twitter as anything more than as a reserve for the maybe's, the only pieces of information I've relied on for any certainty are from contacts within the country.


[edit on 10-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 11:27 PM
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I could have sworn The Government had set money aside for this in 2006 or 2007. To help the Iranian people protest the Iranian regime.

I can't seem to find it now, maybe it doesn't exist. If anyone knows what I'm talking about could you please post it or let me know where to find it, or just tell me I'm crazy.



posted on Jul, 10 2009 @ 11:49 PM
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The state tv station in Iran is undeniable evidence of the regime changing it's lies over and over again. And that evidence is the most easily obtained from Iranian's. Each consecutive lie is as meaningless as the last one, and therefore proves my case.


(12) There is little chance you can even identify all the ellements in play in this little game that range from the Pavlavi Family, to remnants of the SAVAK, the CIA, MI6, MOSSAD, 4 different Political Cantidates inside of Iran and their followers and supporters, and three different Mullahs each either wanting to retain the title of Supreme Leader or to become it, and two different Islamic Sects, not to mention the Russians, and a few different major Corporate interests that would benefit greatly should the West's Agenda of retunring the Pavlavi family to power be realized, which is in fact what the West wants and you don't even know enough about that or Iran or the history of Iran to even know that's why the West is driving this whole thing.


I don't doubt that each of these parties will become involved at some point or that the Russian's already play a part. I know if evidence surfaces of involvement at a later date, then you just assume this means that the west instigated the protests, even though it won't.


(13) You are likely either a Pavlavi supporter, a rabid Zionist, a Christian Fundamentalist, or just a pie in the sky dreamer who wears your heart on your sleave and thinks with it too.


I'll just stick with labelling you a judgemental and presumptuous idiot.

You commonly mistake matters that can occur without CIA involvement and don't appear to show CIA involvement, with the possibility of CIA involvement at a later stage.

To presume the US is always involved in every attempted coup, and that the US is involved in Iran 24/7 and cannot keep their hands out of the biscuit barrel, is highly presumptuous.

And remember you were saying it was western instigated. And I'm saying the regime basically instigated the mess themselves by behaving in a most unsuitable and inappropriate manner, even for a fundamentally driven religious Islamic regime, and they have even trashed the Islamic codes of conduct they wrote themselves.

Just to note - any western influence after the recent protests at some later time were never part of the dispute on here.

I would predict it's likely that the west will end up provoking Iran into a war sometime later this year or early next year by what could be seen as justifed reasons for meddling into the illegal regime. And so going for regime change.

And I've already outlined reasons as to why the regime caused their own downfall. I bet CIA/MOSSAD are pissing themselves with laughter at how incompotent the regime have become. We can see evidence of this incompotency on their state tv as I've previously explained.


(14) Your timing to choose to become a member and the topics you pursue with such zeal or indicative of someone with a specific political agenda.


Ohhhh noooo conspiracy everywhere
There are conspiracies but not here with me, and not everywhere. Aren't you also pursuing responses with zeal?! Aren't you also the one not answering my specific questions with any directness at all, and yet I'm providing you with more insight and answers every time. You cannot, or refuse to do this, and you're indicitive of your own accusations.... or should I just call them assumptions as that's what they are!


(15) Your inability to examine history and act and behave in a rational and annalytical manner and your desire to belittle those that do is further indicative of someone with an agenda.


I did ask you to examine the present with healthy sceptisim, and since you didn't, you became the laughing stock. Historians aren't always experts on the present... yes it helps to know history.... and I do.... but things "change" so to speak. The situation in Iran is unique since 1979, and in many ways it imitates the Islamic revolution.

The regime provides an opportunity for us to belittle them, and so do you.

It helps to know the present, as well as the past!!!!!!



In fact John all you have done is taken some recycled pictures that the mainstream media keeps showing over and over again with different captions and different days and an article written by a reporter who if you read the article said in it "I am not in Iran but I just know that the Iranians would have done something big on this date because anniversaries mean a lot to them and no way would they miss this opportunity" and then further speculated it would be much bigger of course but the Government is making it hard.


No, I've done much more than that! And what have you done... except provide an opinion based on vast assumptions because the CIA can be nasty!

There's much more anecdotal evidence to suggest what I've said from doctors, might I add in Basij controlled hospitals from eyewitness accounts.

OK presume nothing I can say is accurate, and tell me how that provides any evidence for your case. Can you give any Iranian stories from the side of the regime that aren't official regime propaganda websites or tv stations? Is that a no? Oh of course the magical powers of western media stations have managed to prevent this from getting out even though they aren't even in Iran because they were kicked out!
If the regime has control over the people and have crushed the protests for good as they state in their press tv #e then why haven't the Iranian's who love the regime (who you say are plenty in number) getting out their messages to the world that the regime treats them well. Unless this is because they are very small in number, or are all linked to the regime, and the majority who hate the regime are getting their message out that I and many others are witnessing.




[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 12:25 AM
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That's not "facts" that's pure heresay and speculation. It's not journalism because it is just heresay and speculation. It lacks no integridy John and while you probably live in Israel, and might live in London, and could even live here in America...


And yet you ignore the same ideals in a different way that you blame others of not keeping to. As I have to keep telling you... you are presumptuous about the whole matter, and you're lying to yourself or hiding evidence.

What I have said is as much confirmation to me as the Pluto existing because I know credible Astronomers have witnessed it. Much in the same way to me credible people have provided this evidence for me.


Real Americans, true Americans have loftier standards and ideals than that. They require better information than that.


I truly hope not all Americans are as naive as you.

Iranian's have shown themselves to me to be a most resourceful people whose young generation are exceedingly brilliant, brave and amazing. I haven't seen those qualities in abundance anywhere else for a long time. Maybe not since the events leading up to the Battle of Britain for the British, and the years following it. I definitely don't see these qualities in you, and I fear for the future of Western Europe and the US should the majority turn inwards and fall for non-existant issues, instead of dealing with both the real domestic issues and external issues.


You see John people who are acting impetuously and emotionally based on preconcieved notions and prejudices with an agenda minus facts are in fact NO better than the people in the regimes that they want to see replaced and fall, and in fact they are usually worse because they will stoop to any level and do anything to make their Agenda realized.


That's exactly what the Islamic regime is doing by manipulating people who believe in their conspiracy theories. The regime has the hidden agenda, whilst hidden from you, it's not hidden from me.

It's better to have emotions, and deal with the issues using both rationality and a logical approach. Having emotions does not compromise this entirely, it's what makes us human, and we can still make the correct decisions.


20 years from now, the most of the truth about what is going on in Iran will come out. That's how long it usually takes John for all the facts to shake out.


Of course, but I would expect at least one anecdotal source besides the regime in favour of western instigation at the moment to take it more seriously.

Therefore if we assume your statement correct for the sake of argument, that it takes around 20 years, how can you make any real conclusions either?!!


One things for certain though, that book will likely have the same 10 pictures that the Media keeps changing the dates and captions on every other day, only it will feature all the people who were spying, lying and manipulating all of this, either proudly talking about how they succeeded or crying about how they failed.


That's a nice story... and I don't doubt there will be! But not of the instigation of protests, the regime messed up the place themselves, and spies will be involved later on most likely.

And the media can't confirm the dates of many videos, they keep saying so, it's not a secret. You can view these yourself on the Internet, and determine the date yourself. Don't blame the media for your own laziness.


That's the real world John.


You are basing the real world on past events, assuming they will occur over and over again the same way for each plot, without realising the possibility of different events occurring causing a change and so a different outcome. So the real world is more complicated than you presume.


By the way you seem to have miss understood everything I put in my last post you were so busy trying to twist it into something bad and awful.


Not bad, but awful... absolutely shocking because you base everything entirely on presumptions. Not one shred of evidence to even see or hear for yourself!

And you haven't provided anything more than a string of presumptions.


Real Americans, and realy fair people, will want to wait to get real facts before making real decisions and you can twist that how ever you want to and believe what ever you want to and it's very doubtful you will influence anyone in the process that isn't already drunk on the same brand of kool aide you are.


Fair enough, you don't anything to say with absolute certaintly either, I was saying you were wrong to make an assertion without evidence to see or hear for yourself about western instigation. You really don't have to believe that I'm providing accurate evidence from reliable sources in Iran.

Just like I can't accept your viewpoint as you cannot provide more than presumptions based on past CIA operations.

After all you are claiming that the CIA instigated the protests.

I have no problem if you can't accept it as fact that the protestors did it on their own, providing you can admit you cannot provide anything concrete either for CIA instigation.

And my opinion also covers possible CIA getting involved at a later date. My opinion is the CIA were in Iran in the past at different points in time, have not been involved since around 2007, and will be involved shortly.

[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by Strictsum
I could have sworn The Government had set money aside for this in 2006 or 2007. To help the Iranian people protest the Iranian regime.

I can't seem to find it now, maybe it doesn't exist. If anyone knows what I'm talking about could you please post it or let me know where to find it, or just tell me I'm crazy.


Any sources would be nice if you read this somewhere?



posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 12:53 AM
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delete
[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]

[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 12:53 AM
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reply to post by john124
 


John you are so funny! The only thing I said is I don't believe what's being said.

I didn't put forward any theory. It's fun watching you go on and on about my 'theory' when all I am outlining is why, at this early stage in absence of so many of the pertinent facts there is no point to having a 'theory'.

It is hysterical how my "No Theory Yet" stance...inspires you so!

Read my post John...

Repeat I have no theory, other than I think it's wise to get all the facts first.

Like an intelligent person would.

How exactly can a person without a theory have a wrong theory.

In fact all I said is I would not accept the theory you support, or any other theory.

Oh and the fact that the United States wants the Shah's son back on the Throne over there.

Do you really think monarchs enjoying running around nationless John?

That's like no Pizza at a Pizza Parlor.

Really.



posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Yes it was others who had a stronger opinion on CIA involvement, although you did portray that you felt that to be true several times... this being one example:


One things for certain though, that book will likely have the same 10 pictures that the Media keeps changing the dates and captions on every other day, only it will feature all the people who were spying, lying and manipulating all of this, either proudly talking about how they succeeded or crying about how they failed.


Here you talk about spies which can be interpreted as western spies instigating the protests.

When in actual fact young unhappy Iranian women are likely the instigators of the protests to begin with.

And my comments aren't just for you, I hope many others read them too, especially those who were convinced of CIA involvement already.


[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]

[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 01:20 AM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
John what you don't get is that it's pointless debating a pointless subject.

...

You are being emotionally manipulated John by people who understand your intellectual limitations, some of us are going to choose not to debate you because yours is simply an emotion based not factual based argument, and unless you had taken a vow of poverty and were a sworn agnostic, with no state to call home, with a vast intelligence network on the ground in Iran of similiar individuals the only facts you will ever have are things that appeal to you emotionally and percptually that have not one little thing to do with the reality on the ground in Iran.

It's called misdirection and smoke and mirrors my friend, and because you believe it, and because you feel you are intelligent and wise, doesn't mean intelligent and wise people are in fact going to believe it and react emotionally in the same fashion.

That's why no one is debating you or at least I am not because basically it comes down to a Hanzel and Gretell was the witch really going to eat them or just use them to clean out the oven, or scare them into not wandering in the woods type of argument going.


I couldn't express this in my words when I read his comments about the so-called silence :-) You have pulled these words out, which is stucked in here.

One additional note to the OP: Please don't see everything so black and white, the world is much more colorful than that.





[edit on 11-7-2009 by yiersan]



posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by john124
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Yes it was others who had a stronger opinion on CIA involvement, although you did portray that you felt that to be true several times... this being one example:


One things for certain though, that book will likely have the same 10 pictures that the Media keeps changing the dates and captions on every other day, only it will feature all the people who were spying, lying and manipulating all of this, either proudly talking about how they succeeded or crying about how they failed.


Here you talk about spies which can be interpreted as western spies instigating the protests.

When in actual fact young unhappy Iranian women are likely the instigators of the protests to begin with.

And my comments aren't just for you, I hope many others read them too, especially those who were convinced of CIA involvement already.


[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]

[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]


Wow John if the CIA ISN"T INVOLVED it's not doing what it's paid to do or it's mission.

It's absolutely absurd to think the CIA isn't involved.

Only someone with absolutely no understanding of Government, Foreign Policy, and the Middle East and Asia or a disinformation Agent would even think the CIA isn't involved.

It's what we pay the CIA to do John. What do you think they do sell girl scout cookies?

Wow!



posted on Jul, 12 2009 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by yiersan

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
John what you don't get is that it's pointless debating a pointless subject.

...

You are being emotionally manipulated John by people who understand your intellectual limitations, some of us are going to choose not to debate you because yours is simply an emotion based not factual based argument, and unless you had taken a vow of poverty and were a sworn agnostic, with no state to call home, with a vast intelligence network on the ground in Iran of similiar individuals the only facts you will ever have are things that appeal to you emotionally and percptually that have not one little thing to do with the reality on the ground in Iran.

It's called misdirection and smoke and mirrors my friend, and because you believe it, and because you feel you are intelligent and wise, doesn't mean intelligent and wise people are in fact going to believe it and react emotionally in the same fashion.

That's why no one is debating you or at least I am not because basically it comes down to a Hanzel and Gretell was the witch really going to eat them or just use them to clean out the oven, or scare them into not wandering in the woods type of argument going.


I couldn't express this in my words when I read his comments about the so-called silence :-) You have pulled these words out, which is stucked in here.

One additional note to the OP: Please don't see everything so black and white, the world is much more colorful than that.





[edit on 11-7-2009 by yiersan]


I just follow the evidence, and if evidence surfaces of CIA instigation then I will accept it as fact. Until then I have to assume that it's the people struggle vs the regime, as my sources on the ground tell me. I'm not going to just discount all of that to satisfy someone's imaginations on here.

I could easily say if you don't have information directly from the ground in Iran, then you have less capacity to conclude than someone who does.

And lastly I never said it was impossible for the CIA to be involved, just that they haven't been spotted. Past involvement may not necessarily equate to current involvement.

I think your analogy of seeing in black and white is moot. We're all seeing in shades of colour, it's just some of us with less distinct colours, whilst I'm seeing the whole range of the spectrum.



posted on Jul, 12 2009 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by john124
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Yes it was others who had a stronger opinion on CIA involvement, although you did portray that you felt that to be true several times... this being one example:


One things for certain though, that book will likely have the same 10 pictures that the Media keeps changing the dates and captions on every other day, only it will feature all the people who were spying, lying and manipulating all of this, either proudly talking about how they succeeded or crying about how they failed.


Here you talk about spies which can be interpreted as western spies instigating the protests.

When in actual fact young unhappy Iranian women are likely the instigators of the protests to begin with.

And my comments aren't just for you, I hope many others read them too, especially those who were convinced of CIA involvement already.


[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]

[edit on 11-7-2009 by john124]


Wow John if the CIA ISN"T INVOLVED it's not doing what it's paid to do or it's mission.

It's absolutely absurd to think the CIA isn't involved.

Only someone with absolutely no understanding of Government, Foreign Policy, and the Middle East and Asia or a disinformation Agent would even think the CIA isn't involved.

It's what we pay the CIA to do John. What do you think they do sell girl scout cookies?

Wow!


The CIA's job is not to specifically target the Iranian regime.

Has every coup in history been instigated by the CIA?

Has the regime paraded any CIA agents with the evidence to prove it, or at least contacted the UN about it and shown evidence?

The answer to both is 'no'.

I've already stated how a CIA coup would have been detrimental to protests, and why the people of Iran can be angry without been told to be, and can plan protests without any help from outside. You have yet to provide any reasonable argument to show these to be false.

Therefore the CIA would be doing it's "job" if they avoided giving the regime the opportunity to rally the people of Iran against the west. Maybe the CIA has learnt from previous mistakes and stayed out of it at this crucial time.

Did you also know that the regime on state tv 3 weeks ago stated that the BBC correspondant Jon Leyne paid agents murdered the girl named Neda. Previously the regime blamed Israeli's, and then Saudi's, and then the CIA, and then protestors. Can you see.. the regime has no consistency, and reeks of lies.

Did you also know that 2 weeks ago on state tv the regime blamed Amnesty International staff for beatings and murders of protestors, and said interpol had been sent relevant evidence. Western journalists phoned Amnesty International & Interpol to ask them about this, and the reply was "uhh what are you talking about?!".

All directly from who are reliable sources to me - who have witnessed this regime propaganda first hand in Iran. I'm not talking about twitter, I'm talking about families of some of my friends. If you were in the same position this kind of evidence would also be worthwhile and reliable to you.

For the regime to have the credibility to be telling the truth, then the CIA would have to control all international organisations such as interpol and the UN. Since that would be utterly impossible, the regime lacks credibility so it's logical to assume the regime tells porkies quite often.

These inconsistent lies and cover-ups show how pathetic and incompotent the regime have become.

Now we could say the CIA have been extraordinarily careful and managed to cover up all tracks 100%, and the regime has been forced to falsify evidence of the CIA involvement. Yes that's possible, but you would expect the regime thugs to have done a little better at flushing them out IMO should the CIA be there. The Basij break into enough people's homes (multitudes of videos on youtube), that even an incompotent regime and it's thugs could find at least something to use as real evidence.

Yes I know the CIA would support the opposition if the chance to make an advantage towards them occurred. And vocally within the CIA they will support anyone anti-Islamic regime. But who's the one jumping the gun and maybe not seeing the whole picture here? Quite clearly your last comment did just that!



[edit on 12-7-2009 by john124]

[edit on 12-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 12 2009 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by john124
 


John you clearly don't even understand that there is such a thing as the CIA, what the CIA does for a living and how and why.

You clearly don't understand that there is such a thing as foriegn policy or that it is run with objectives that have nothing to do with any nation's best interest other than ours.

You have not one credibly source of information but the rantings and ravings of third parties well removed from the sources of the conflict with their own lesser agendas that allow them to be manipulated by those who are the source of the conflict.

It is true that missery loves company and they certainly have found great company in you but your arguments couldn't sell a glass of water to a person dying of dehydration in the dessert.

Ignorance is bliss John I bet you are one happy guy!



posted on Jul, 12 2009 @ 01:56 PM
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John you clearly don't even understand that there is such a thing as the CIA, what the CIA does for a living and how and why.


That's just not true.


You clearly don't understand that there is such a thing as foriegn policy or that it is run with objectives that have nothing to do with any nation's best interest other than ours.


Of course I understand the CIA have foreign policies in the middle east, and as such the best move by the CIA would be to keep out of it for now. And such vague statements of this does not go any way towards providing your case.


You have not one credibly source of information but the rantings and ravings of third parties well removed from the sources of the conflict with their own lesser agendas that allow them to be manipulated by those who are the source of the conflict.


So what?? These are sources I can trust, I don't care about you. At least I have provided a reasonable argument in my previous post for how I see things.


It is true that missery loves company and they certainly have found great company in you but your arguments couldn't sell a glass of water to a person dying of dehydration in the dessert.

Ignorance is bliss John I bet you are one happy guy!


That was a typical response to someone who cannot answer the questions I've put forward on the table, which quite clearly show flaws in what you think.

I know the CIA has objectives in Iran, and I do think they can be involved very soon. And I've already outlined quite clearly as to why the CIA would not have/need to get involved to instigate protests. You haven't provided a similar argument for you case that they have, except assuming on foreign policy history. Can you make a case that the CIA were actually needed for protests to take place?

[edit on 12-7-2009 by john124]



posted on Jul, 12 2009 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by john124
 


John I can assure you as an American as opposed to a British Citizen which you are...

That you do not work for the CIA, that you know nothing about the CIA and know no one who works for the CIA.

While in your mind you feel well qualified for the job of 'knowing' how the CIA runs and what it's goals would be...

I can assure you that they are neither bound by, operate under or share your highly speculative and biased oppinion on something you have no intimate involvement, knowledge or responsibility towards.

You simply like everyone else on ATS have a theory and are prepared to brow beat people and endlessly go on and on why everyone else should share your unqualified theory based on what is nothing but "The world according to John" and the only one who lives in that world in fact is "John"

Ignorance is the one objection that can never be overcome John because the ignorant will not consider any other view or perspective but their own.

This is why people will not debate you, this is why your thread has garnered little interest as you seek to dictate to others your world view as being the only 'correct' view.

Should you come by any credible intelligence from Iran by qualified sources do feel free to post it as those of us with open minds enjoy weighing and considering all credible and intelligent sources of information which your third party article that you originally posted and your third party oppinions don't constitute.

Thanks.




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