I Don't Want To Shoot To Kill

You could always try talking nicely to someone that is ransacking your house and harming your family. But I would expect that a shotgun blast to thier chest might be a better idea.

"You'll be ready for it when the time comes" or "You'll know just what to do" is a dangerous fallacy.

I have personally known highly trained men that froze in place and soiled themselves when confronted with mortal combat...they thought they were "ready".

There has been some ground breaking research on the psychology and physiology of deadly conflict.....I highly suggest that you (or any gun owner) read "ON COMBAT" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman to get real answers on whether you are up to the task.

I will say this....and it has been said by a poster above...NEVER point a gun at anything you don't intend to DESTROY....get the idea of "shooting to injure" completely out of your mind when dealing with firearms...that thought can kill you


[edit on 9-7-2009 by RolandBrichter]

[edit on 9-7-2009 by RolandBrichter]

reply to post by Hazelnut


In your case I would suggest either buying a small hand gun (9mm) and putting it up somewhere. It will be there if you absolutely need it, but won't be "at your finger tips" like say a shotgun leaning next to the front door (I've been in houses where there were guns in every room, this is excessive lol).

9mm doesn't generally cause lethal damage either.. unless you aim for the head of course.. it's a good gun to use if you just want to scare someone away or injure them.

Another option would be a Shotgun ..

Honestly.. you don't even need to keep it loaded.. just the sound of a shotgun being cocked will send any criminal running for their lives. If you feel you want to be intimidating without showing your self, without direct confrontation, and without the possibility of ending a life.. the sound of a shotgun is your best bet. (I would of course keep some ammo in the house, just in case, you never know).

And it's best to make sure everyone in the house knows how to use it.. not just so they can use it in self defense should the need arise, but also for safety reasons, it's best if everyone is familiar with the weapon so that it's not regarded as some dangerous evil thing hidden in the bedroom.

Well, I did a response here and odd things happened, and lost my connection, so perhaps that was the muses of the cosmos telling me it was TMI.

Bravo on your courage Hazelnut, in bringing up this issue. IMO, a person unwilling to take a life should not carry a firearm.

When we lived in the U.S., my Bride and I would go to a remote part of the state and practice, drill, and she learned to quickly deploy her firearm, acquire the target and accurately shoot from a variety of positions and hypothetical sceanarios. We both knew this was vital to do before she ever started carrying concealed.

She used a Gloria Le Master purse, which had a velcro closure at one end seam, had aircraft aluminum in the strap, and was compact and fashionable, at least to my eye. It didn't stand out as anything other than a slender purse. She carried a Baretta .22LR, which I also liked since it had a pop-up barrell and would have been easier to clear a jam, had it ever done so. Weight was an issue, or she'd have carried her revolver.

I would guess there are many who do carry firearms that have not truly worked through these ideas. Also think it's important to remember that carrying concealed, a person has a higher responsibility for a cool head and should never go to places or do/say things that they wouldn't otherwise do if they were not armed.

When we lived in the city, I would frequently notice people who either did a poor job of carrying concealed, or even worse, intentionally "flash" their firearm. That kind of swagger is dangerous and foolish. If a person chooses to carry a concealed firearm, they should practice with it until it becomes a part of them.

Where home defense is concerned, it's incredibly important to always know where your family members are, and to include them in your drills, such that they know what to do. Some of the most terrible tragedies are when people shoot their own in the heat of the moment, or children aren't indoctrinated into gun safety. It's a weighty responsibility.

Legalities matter, however the safety of yourself and yours matter more.

reply to post by Rockpuck


your spot on with the safety side of guns..

Many children are hurt or killed by sneeking into their parents room playing with what they know to be a cool gun,but kept hidden..parents are often doing the right thing from keeping guns from kids,but at the same time not showing them the dangers of them,and just not out right being honest with their children..

Kids always go after what their parents keep secret from them..

Now I'm not saying to show your kids where there at and where the key is to the trigger lock,thats silly but...

If your kids old enough to operate a gun,take them out and show them how it works,and stress that if you do this such and such will happen..

sad storys are the ones were kids are playing with guns found by irresponsible parents where they pull the trigger while looking down the barrel expecting to see something move or happen..

Best way to keep a pistol are those new fandangled touch safes..there fairly inexpensive and quick to open in a paniced hurry..

If anything do not keep your weapon loaded keep mags or shells in a completely seperate hiding spot..This goes if their are kids in the house..

Trigger locks are a must if your weapon is not in a lock box of sorts..Most if not all new guns come with them when purchased..Use it..

If buying used,buy a trigger lock with a key..I had one with a key pad of sorts and had a hell of a time opening it up one night when I needed to,half asleep..It whent in the garbage the next day..i did not replace it as there are no children in my house,but hidden in false heating vent in the floor next to my bed..My long guns are locked up in a safe,and ammo stored in other parts of the house..

when me and my wife first moved in together i had taken her to the range and showed her how to shoot for the first time..She loves shooting..A great stress releiver..

We just recently had a problem across the street that involved the swat teem and a drug bust..I have been blamed for snitching on them,but they hung themselves probably..But I know for a fact that I have been blamed,and wouldnt surprise me I any reprocusions come my way,but anyways I broke out an old 870 modded it a bit within the parameters of the law and gave my wife a refresher on how to operate it..And came up with an exit plan if bad guys come in from the front or rear door..At night the lights go out..We know our home better than anyone,and can menuver in complete darkness..bad guys cant with out stumbing..Flash lights make for a moving target..On both sides..

Now i dont now what lengths they may go to if any but I had asked my wife with the straightest of faces,''could you kill a man?''And her response was if he kicked in the door and pointed a gun at me,you had better beleive it..

I knew this all along,but wanted to re-inforce just what a gun is meant to do..

[edit on 10-7-2009 by Redpillblues]

[edit on 10-7-2009 by Redpillblues]

I too applaud the fact that you're thinking about this ahead of time but mostly agree with those saying, in essence, when push comes to shove you'll do (or try to do) the right and necessary thing by instinct. Success, timing, and later possible remorse and regret are a whole other story though. When we look back, we too often focus on the horror or wrongness of a decision made in a moment and too often forget everything else that was going on at that moment in time that led us to that particular decision. Overthinking things ahead of time or afterward can be the real killers. What it all comes down to is do you really trust your instinct or not.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
I too applaud the fact that you're thinking about this ahead of time but mostly agree with those saying, in essence, when push comes to shove you'll do (or try to do) the right and necessary thing by instinct. Success, timing, and later possible remorse and regret are a whole other story though. When we look back, we too often focus on the horror or wrongness of a decision made in a moment and too often forget everything else that was going on at that moment in time that led us to that particular decision. Overthinking things ahead of time or afterward can be the real killers. What it all comes down to is do you really trust your instinct or not.

I like the way you put it, it makes more sense than my ramblings in the OP. I do overthink things and this issue is especially disturbing for me for a lot of reasons. One being that my husband was a sniper and a POW years ago. He has overcome the terrible mental anguish that arose from that time in his life. I have to be 100% sure before I ask him to reevaluate his stance for my sake.

I also was an expert shot (in training) and thought that I could kill to defend my country. I intended to if the situation called for it.

But now I'm a civilian and wonder if I'm being paranoid about the future, reading to many ATS posts on TSHF or if it really is going to happen.

I'm almost positive that I will be able to convince my husband to help me arm us for practical reasons. I just need to be sure and time (it seems) is running out.

I do overthink things and you are 100% correct about that being a real killer!

For anyone interested, I found this interactive "game" on basic rifle marksmanship from the GoArmy.com site.

Basic Rifle Marksmanship by GoArmy.com

reply to post by Hazelnut


Hi Hazel Nut,

You are alright. I suggest you wait until your life feels like it is really being threatened before you get a gun, because a gun is what you really think you need. Bad times may never show up.

To have a gun is a lot of responisibility if you have kids or adults around. You have to have it someplace where they can't play with it or its bullets. If they do play with it, death becomes an option. Therefore getting a gun before it is time to get a gun is not a good idea. So wait until you really need one my friend.

reply to post by Hazelnut


well, see, you and the poster directly after bring up another good point. are we so focused on guns when we think about what might happen when the SHTF that we might be overlooking thinking about other things? is that in itself a danger? are we preconditioning ourselves in a way to think "shoot first?" personally, my attitude about having guns in the house and knowing how to use them is that they are there just in case. and that in my view is not a bad thing. and i think that the people who don't have them or have never been exposed to them at all or may even be opposed to them will learn fast if the need should ever arise.

((oh and thanks for getting me thinking about this again. it makes me think to ask my dad (who lived through wwii and taught me some attitude and common sense about this ) what he thinks would have happened if they had more guns.))

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
I too applaud the fact that you're thinking about this ahead of time but mostly agree with those saying, in essence, when push comes to shove you'll do (or try to do) the right and necessary thing by instinct. Success, timing, and later possible remorse and regret are a whole other story though. When we look back, we too often focus on the horror or wrongness of a decision made in a moment and too often forget everything else that was going on at that moment in time that led us to that particular decision. Overthinking things ahead of time or afterward can be the real killers. What it all comes down to is do you really trust your instinct or not.

This post is an perfect example of nearly all of the emotions one must understand when considering the responsibility of protecting your family and yourself in a world that is getting more dangerous everyday. If the end result is your families and your own survival in a bad situation and you acted in their best interest with honest intent, you have done no wrong nor should you dwell on the outcome. It is paramount that blame is put on the perpetrators not you for acting in a responsible manner.
Zindo

[edit on 7/10/2009 by ZindoDoone]

Originally posted by ZindoDoone

It is paramount that blame is put on the perpetrators not you for acting in a responsible manner.

There you go.

Make sure someone else takes the fall when you are forced to defend yourself.

Perhaps those that deny that 9/11 was an inside job and insist that arabs did the deed are the true patriots after all.

[edit on 11-7-2009 by In nothing we trust]

My patriot sister Hazelnut, never have a weapon you are not sure you can use, as someone will pick it up and use it on you. Hesitation has killed many trained soldiers; there are no second place prizes in combat, just the living and the dead who were not quiet well enough trained.

The conflict we are now about to enter into will include not only ‘Red Coats’, but roving gangs of heartless thugs that will not hesitate to do unmentionable things to you and your family; they for certain will not have your moral qualms. Yours to decide.

However, if you cannot fight, GET OUT OF THE CITIES and to a Christian sanctuary. This is exactly WHY they are being set up.

By the way, the word ‘provide’ in the scripture “Those who do not provide for their families are worse then an infidel…” means to protect, care for, and nurture. “Live by the Sword” Literally translated means “To trust in skill with weapons” for safety like a soldier; the idea being to trust FIRST in God, but pass the ammunition if needed. Which is why the highest praise Jesus ever gave was to a Roman Centurion of the Italiana’ Legion of the Roman Army – the most ruthless and bloody Legion they had and the one the Jews hated the most; he came humbly trusting God for his servants healing and requesting it, rather than trusting in his position as a Centurion of the bad among the bad, who could have had Jesus brought to him in chains and ORDERED to do his bidding; i.e.: he did not live by (trust in) his sword.

Also note that Jesus ALSO said that the day would come that you should sell your cloak and buy a sword. A contradiction? No, just a bad translation of the “live by the sword”.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
just the sound of a shotgun being cocked will send any criminal running for their lives.

From personal experience: no it won't. Not always. That's a dangerous notion to get in your head.

Anytime you even draw a weapon, things have progressed to the point that you better be beyond any thoughts of just "scaring" someone.

You may not actually have to kill them, but that better be your mindset, because they'll sure as hell kill you.

Originally posted by RussianScientists

You are alright. I suggest you wait until your life feels like it is really being threatened before you get a gun, because a gun is what you really think you need. Bad times may never show up.

Another dangerous thought. When the wolf is at the door, he's not gonna wait for you to run down to the gun store and arm up. Forewarned is forearmed.

There's also the issues of familiarizing yourself with your primary weapon beforehand. Having had military training, you already know the basics, but each type of weapon is different, has different control setups and shooting characteristics. These need to be familiar to you before the evil day comes, as while you are under stress is not the best time to start learning them.

[edit on 2009/7/11 by nenothtu]

My posts above were just random responses to things I saw as dangerous mindsets. THIS is my reply to the OP.

It's good that you're thinking this out ahead of time. In an emergency, we usually respond with the minds we have already set up, before the emergency hits. If we haven't set anything in our minds, we have no ready response, and so we hesitate. Hesitation can led to really bad things. So it's good to think it through ahead of time, and be prepared. That doesn't mean you'll ever have to use that response, but it's ready if you need it.

Avoidance of conflict is always the best avenue, but sometimes that's just not an option. The conflict comes to you. You have to have your response set firmly in your mind ahead of time, and you'll be able to do what you need without over thinking it.

Taking a life is NOT always an easy thing, I don't give a damn what anybody says. If it comes to that, there are some that you will live with for the rest of your days, long after they're dead and at peace. The key here is that you WILL be alive to fret over it. It won't hammer at you from all sides forever, but it will pop back into your mind from time to time, unbidden. The longer you live, the less frequent that gets. As far as I know, it never goes away altogether. That's something you should be aware of beforehand, to factor in to the decision making.

That said, there are folks around who just plain need killin'. There really are monsters out there, and if you don't do them in when they come for you, they won't hesitate. And they'll do EVIL things while they're at it. A curious thing is that some of those 'stone cold killers' that come for you, big and bad as they are, will revert to childlike behavior, and cry for their mommas like children while they're laying there bleeding out when they lose. You'll still hear those cries 30 years later, but if you think about it a minute, you'll realize that could have been YOU laying there instead, and that guy may have been just having a good 'ol time with the folks you care about, You'll realize it could have been worse, from your viewpoint. If it comes to a general war situation, rather than an isolated incident, they aren't all like that. You'll know beyond doubt that some just plain needed killin' and that's that.

Don't ever pick up a gun, should you decide to get one, thinking you're going to scare someone with it. For whatever reason, and it's probably too deep to get into right now, a really huge number of folks will rush you while you're trying to 'scare' them. If that happens and you hesitate to drop the hammer on them thinking you were 'just gonna scare them', you're done for. They won't worry a lot about just scaring you.

Fear and panic are funny things. No one knows for sure how they'll react until they're dropped in the grease. I know of a fine young man, combat trained, who got caught in an ambush on a convoy in a jungle. it was his first time under fire, and evidently he panicked or something, and froze. He was standing there, in the middle of the road with bullets whizzing by and grenades going off all around him, holding his weapon at port arms and staring straight ahead, like he was on a parade ground instead of in the middle of an ambush. Just standing there, stock still. Another guy who had been in the grease before took an extra second while diving under a vehicle to knock that shocked fellow's legs right out from under him. When the action was over, and the ambushers had all been taken out or run off, that guy was found laying flat on his back in the mud, still staring straight up, weapon still at port arms. He lived to fight another day because one of his brothers took an extra second to drop him flat.

I know other people that are just as cool, calm, and collected as can be under fire. They look like they're on a vacation. Then, after it's all over and the danger is gone, they just fall all to hell. Nervous mess. The key is that they don't allow that to happen until they're out of the danger zone. Most folks fall in between the two somewhere. A very few are probably certifiable psychopaths, live to kill, and never ever worry about it. Most of those don't live all that long in a combat situation.

The key, I think, is to do just as you're doing. Think it all out beforehand, get a firm determination that you are gonna live through it, whatever it is, and prepare your mind, and your hardware, accordingly. Firmly understand that if it comes to kill or be killed, you know which side of that you want to be on. Know that there is evil in the world that will have to be dealt with, one way or the other, if it ever comes to you. Know that just because you win the fight, you may have to live with the results for a while to come.

Know that you'll be alive to do that.

When there is an intruder.

You can all try reasoning with them...


Some may try to kill them kindness...


Me?

If they get anywhere near my kids I'll give them six warning shots in the face.


[edit on 11-7-2009 by SLAYER69]

What you honestly need to realize OP is this:
When presented with a scenario in which you would have to take another's life to protect your family or yourself, the aggressor will not think twice. As you decide, you will die, leaving your family unprotected. In a worse case scenario it is kill or be killed as many soldiers will tell you.

I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but sometimes people need to hear the harsh truth.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Hazelnut,
Hi! I've read a few posts of yours on other topics and decided when I read this one it was time to say "Hey". I'm another ex-military preparedness-minded female out here in the world. I also have concerns for my child's safety and well-being that are very related what you describe in another thread about your daughter. So first I wanted to say, know you are Not alone out there. I have had to gaurd my son, spiritually and literally from 'family members' who are quite off the wall religiously speaking, too. I've always known that I would do whatever was necessary to protect my son from them and that has included being armed and prepared.
I hope I am never in that position. I hope you aren't either. Heck, I would hope that no one ever is, but it happens and if TSHTF it'll happen much more often.
The thing I wanted to mention for you to consider is:
Which is more cruel in a SHTF situation...
shooting to kill (to protect you and yours, of course)
OR
shooting to wound when there would be no medicine, chance of medical care, etc. and condemning someone to a slow, painful death thru blood poisoning, gangrene, or any of the other myriad of complications that go with being wounded?
When I was in the Army I was trained as a medic before being trained in other medical areas. (All military medical personnel have a base MOS of Medic.) After learning how wounds can go if not treated, my answer, for myself, is that it is MUCH more cruel to purposely wound someone and leave them to suffer. So, again for me, wounding in a SHTF situation isn't just a bad choice tactically speaking, but also ethically and morally.
I would never try to tell anyone else what to do, how to choose... but I do think this aspect of the situation might be worthwhile for you to consider.
GB,
~pre

(Ideally, if you set up defensive measures, maybe you (one) would never have to face this situation.... Think broken glass on paths, thorn bushes under windows... things of that nature.)
~pre (prepared to type more and more run-on sentences anytime...) =)

I'm thinking if it comes down to them or me, it's gonna be all about me after the fact if ya know what I mean. To me that's not even a question, but then I grew up in the south. We'll give the shirt off our back to a stranger in need, but if that stranger tried to steal that same shirt we'd give him a butt full of buckshot without even thinking twice.

Originally posted by jd140
Someone threatens my family with violence I will shoot them right between the eyes and not lose any sleep over it.

Unless you are an EXCELLENT marksman, aiming between the eyes is a bad choice. Especially when shooting at a moving target in a combat situation. Always aim for the center of mass.