What Proof That The Flt 93 Black Boxes Were Faked?, page 1

reply to post by weedwhacker

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Is that all you had weedwhacker; a bunch of gibberish and anonymous innuendo? Do you deny that the mass of the entire aircraft would have been in the alleged hole in the strip mine ahead of the black boxes; if one is obliged to believe this Wile E Coyote cartoon physics official fairy tale?

Or are you just bluffing your way along because you are stumped without a quickie new strawman argument to throw into the mix?

Calling Reheat.

Calling Reheat.

We desperately need a new strawman or red herring. Quickly.

reply to post by jd140

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Translation- don't try to convince a truther that 9/11 wasn't an inside job.

That has a corollary in another hotly contested topic -- evolution.

"truthers" arguments are similar to the creationists' when the subject of Darwin and evolution is raised. I sense a definate parallel.....

Click here to learn more about this warning.

reply to post by OnTheFelt

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You sir are a punk.

Ahhhh......the IRONY!


"Common sense, and reason" you say?

All right. Stay tuned. AND please observe how each and every time anyone actually uses scientific principles in a discussion, and real 'common sense' they are simply shouted down with the same, old, tired, regurgitated clap trap.


To wit:

Originally posted by SPreston

Is that all you had weedwhacker; a bunch of gibberish and anonymous innuendo?

IF just once....ONCE!!....these folks came up with solid, undeniable irrefutable evidence, then they will begin to be taken seriously.

What has been the pattern, ad infinitum, is a stubborn refusal to look at real science, real 'common sense', actual reason and instead cling to a fantasy world that more resembles Hollywood blockbuster action films than facing reality.

[edit on 9 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by SPreston

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The Flt 93 black boxes were small, light-weight, of relatively the same size, and located next to each other in the tail of the aircraft.

Correct...relatively same size, located near to each other near the tail.
"light-weight"?? What would you consider 'light weight'? Two pounds? Five pounds?

How about, one unit in an average cooler, taking two people to lift it into the back of a truck? How 'light weight' is that?

Here is a representative video of the DFDR and DCVR from the USAir Airbus 320 accident in New York, last January. The units installed on the Boeing 757 are similar:

Common sense dictates that the tail section of the aircraft allegedly and officially flying upside-down and diving into the ground at a 40 degree angle from the horizontal... *skipping drivel*... would have broken off when the tail hit the ground and tumbled away carrying the black boxes with it, and shattering across the surface

"Common sense" dictates no such thing. SPreston has that cute animation that actually refutes the claim that he just made.

SPreston would have us believe that the kinetic energy (momentum) of the empennage section of the airplane would allow it to suddenly make an acute angle change of direction and travel off, rather than continuing on its previous trajectory into the ground. His 'theory' defies the laws of physics!!

reply to post by weedwhacker

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Look, I'm not here to character assisinate you, but I gotta tell you it is my impression that you literally get off by jumping around from thread to thread on ATS and showing everyone that you're the king sceptic around here. I get it, that's your thing, having a big ego and letting everyone know about it. To each his own I guess.

Now don't get me wrong, a balanced view is very important, and I will admit that there are quite a few posters that need a good dose of reality with some of the threads that are created, but at the same time if the "truth" is the "truth" then it shouldn't matter who says it.

But to imply that 911 truthers refuse to look at real science is down right insulting. What do you think, we get off on this? Do you think that everyone has some axe to grind? Quite the contrary, we only want the truth, because up until now we haven't gotten it.

Case in point:

"there is no way that an aircraft . . . would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control ... Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a 'conspiracy Theory' does not change the truth. It seems, 'Something is rotten in the State.'" - U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director, decorated with the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal

President of the U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board, who also served as Pentagon Weapons Requirement Officer and as a member of the Pentagon's Quadrennial Defense Review, and who was awarded Distinguished Flying Crosses for Heroism, four Air Medals, four Meritorious Service Medals, and nine Aerial Achievement Medals, is a member of a group which doubts the government's version of 9/11

"We've never finished the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. I've seen that for a long time." - U.S. General, Commanding General of U.S. European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, decorated with the Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Purple Heart

"Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism." - Lieutenant colonel, 24-year Air Force career, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs at the Defense Language Institute

"9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war", and it was probably an inside job - 20-year Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer, the second-ranking civilian in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence, and former CIA clandestine services case officer


But these find folks are all dillusional as well, right?

You see we're not questioning 911 from our parent's basement. We are your soldiers, professionals, vicitims families, 1st responders -- and include myslef in that mix as I am a defense contractor who also has 18 years of military/government experience...and here's an eye opener for you, 9/11 is a dirty little secret in the defense community. We don't openly talk about it or bring it up, but trust me when I say that there are many still in the business of "war" who know that 9/11 was a perpetuated sequence of greed, lies, and deciet.

reply to post by SPreston

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Even if the tail of the aircraft had entered the strip mine following the previous mass of the aircraft; why would the light-weight black boxes be buried deeper than the alleged multi-ton turbofan engine allegedly found mere inches below the surface?

What's IRONIC about that statement is it's followed by an official Government EXHIBIT photo that was accepted and verified by a Court of Law! In fact, THREE of the photos in the OP have the same verification. It is only an unsubstantiated claim by certain individuals as to the veracity of these photos.

AND that 'multi-ton turbofan engine'?? It's known as an "APU". Seriously, anyone can look that up, see what it is, where it's installed, how big it is, etc.

And with no serial numbers from the Flt 93 black boxes proving where they came from nor the identity of the aircraft, and in fact not one single serial number from any of the four alleged 9-11 aircraft proving aircraft identity or black box or any single individual part; these alleged black boxes are bogus. The Flt 93 black box photos could have been taken anywhere in the world; even in Italy ...

Here, the Op is intentionally (or unintentionally, from being misinformed) distorting facts. AND beginning to take his own OP off-topic, with a reference to Pentagon photos, and other airplanes from 9-11...

Anyway, focusing on UAL93 'serial numbers', the actual ID plates on the outer casings are not the ONLY means of establishing the authenticity of the Recorders, and which airframe they were installed on. The extreme forces in the crash damaged the S/N exterior info, but the encoded internal data is SPECIFIC to the airframe. There are many, many other points of reference to prove that those Recorders "belonged" to the airframe that was UAL93. IF the top-notch researchers would just bother to do the research!!!

Here we can learn actual facts regarding the Flight Recorders, and their functions:

www.aerospaceweb.org...

The Flight Data Recorder collects data from a number of sensors to monitor information like accelerations, airspeed, altitude, heading, attitudes, cockpit control positions, thermometers, engine gauges, fuel flow, control surface positions, autopilot status, switch positions, and a variety of other parameters. Most parameters are recorded a few times per second but some FDRs can record bursts of data at higher frequencies when inputs are changing rapidly.

The data measured by the different sensors is collected by the Flight Data Acquisition Unit (FDAU). This device is typically located in an equipment bay at the front of the aircraft beneath the flight deck. The FDAU assembles the desired information in the proper format and passes it on to the FDR at the rear of the plane for recording. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) required the FDR to record between 11 and 29 parameters, depending on aircraft size, up to 2002 but now requires saving a minimum of 88 sets of data. Analog FDRs can save a maximum of around 100 variables while digital recorders are often capable of collecting over 1,000 parameters over the course of 25 hours.

Please follow link to diagram here (I do not know how to bring it from the source)

Diagram of data flow to aircraft black boxes

Narration continues:

** skipped extraneous info **

...A common misconception states that the black boxes are "indestructible." No manmade device is indestructible, and no material has ever been developed that cannot be destroyed under severe enough conditions. The black boxes are instead designed to be highly survivable in a crash. In many of the worst aviation accidents, the only devices to survive in working order are the Crash Survivable Memory Units (CSMUs) in the black boxes. The remainder of the recorders, including the external case and other internal components, are often heavily damaged.

Another image from the source is here:

Interior cut-away of a black box design

Continuing:

The CSMU, however, is contained within a very compact cylindrical or rectangular box designed to safeguard the data within against extreme conditions. The box is composed of three layers to provide different types of protection to the recording medium. The outermost shell is a case made of hardened steel or titanium designed to survive intense impact and pressure damage. The second layer is an insulation box while the third is a thermal block to protect against severe fire and heat. Together, these three layered cases allow the FDR and CVR to survive in all but the most extreme crash conditions.

Current regulations require the black boxes to survive an impact of 3,400 g's for up to 6.5 milliseconds. This rapid deceleration is equivalent to slowing from a speed of 310 miles per hour (500 km/h) to a complete stop in a distance of just 18 inches (45 cm). This requirement is tested by firing the CSMU from an air cannon to demonstrate the device can withstand an impact force at least 3,400 times its own weight. The black boxes must also survive a penetration test during which a steel pin dropped from a height of 10 ft (3 m) impacts the CSMU at its most vulnerable point with a force of 500 pounds (2,225 N). In addition, a static crush test is conducted to demonstrate that all sides of the CSMU can withstand a pressure of 5,000 pounds per square inch (350 kg/cm²) for five minutes. The fire resistance of the CSMU is further tested by exposing it to a temperature of 2,000°F (1,100°C) for up to an hour. The device is also required to survive after lying in smoldering wreckage for ten hours at a temperature of 500°F (260°C).

** skipping **

Another factor important to the survivability of the black boxes is their installation in the tail of the aircraft. The exact location often varies depending on the plane, but the FDR and CVR are usually placed near the galley, in the aft cargo hold, or in the tail cone.

Comment: On the Boeing 757 they are not in the tailcone, as that location is taken up by the APU. The Recorders are easily accessible by maintenance personnel for checking and servicing. ALSO, they are not IN the aft cargo hold...they are aft of that location.

The recorders are stored in the tail since this is usually the last part of the aircraft to impact in an accident. The entire front portion of the plane acts like a crush zone that helps to decelerate the tail more slowly. This effect reduces the shock experienced by the recorders and helps to cushion the devices to improve their chances of surviving the crash.

Further comment necessary here. The above paragraph is true in normal airplane crash scenarios! UAL93 was far from 'normal'.

Once the black boxes have been located following an accident, they are typically taken into custody by an aviation safety agency for analysis. In the United States, responsibility for investigating most air accidents belongs to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). Many countries lacking the capability to analyze black boxes also send their recorders to the computer labs of the NTSB or some of the better-equipped investigative organizations in Western nations. Care must be taken in recovering and transporting the recorders so that no further damage is done to the devices that might prevent important data from being extracted.

Upon receipt of the recorders, the NTSB uses a series of computer and audio equipment to process and analyze any information that can be recovered. The data is translated into formats readily usable by investigators and is usually critical in identifying the probable cause(s) of the accident. This process may take many weeks or months depending on the condition of the black boxes and the level of processing required to make sense of the data. Outside experts are also often consulted to help analyze and interpret the data.

So, to try to summarize (this time):

The evidence taken in its entirity is overwhelming; an aircraft did not bury itself in that strip mine and disappear.

No...the evidence points to the contrary. It is only the OP'S opinion, based on an incredible lack of understanding and due diligence.

There is no chain of custody on anything.

Wow!!! What an incredible, blanket, completely unsubstantiated statement to make! Hyperbole, at its finest, ladies and gentlemen!

Alleged official photos of alleged Flt 93 aircraft debris cannot be traced nor verified as to authenticity.

Man, I wish I'd never given him that Thesaurus!! The non-'alleged official photos ARE verified, as noted above. Wishing those facts away does not help.

There was no jet fuel in the soil contaminating the ground water.

Oh, that ripe old chestnut?!? Again with the bait-and-switch? Looky, you can make all of the hit and runs with comments you wish, but your crediblity goes WAY UP if you will provide citations to go along with them.

What is the ground water table height in that area? Prove your claims, instead of dropping them like ticking time bombs of innuendo!!!

And, try to focus, please?

Thank you.

reply to post by OnTheFelt

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OTF,

With respect to the your last post, you are grossly mistaken as to my motives.

I won't be so undignified as to quote specific phrases from the above, it is there for others to review...but I don't entirely disagree with some of the points raised/suggested by SOME of those military people you quoted.

Will quibble, though, with the first one. Lost communications and transponder failures...while not usually occuring simultaneously, DID occur with certain regularity in the past. There was not a spring-loaded mindset on the part of the ARTCC controllers to immediately call NORAD for an intercept. If anything, pre-9/11, there would have been a general attitude of irritation, or annoyance, on the part of the controllers invovled, at first. Think of how long it took before they finally intercepted golfer Stewart Payne's LearJet. Of course, not a perfect example for obvious reasons, but an example nonetheless.

No...I don't absolve the Bush Administration, or by default, any of its lackeys, from responsiblity. NOR the Clinton Administration, for that matter. Lord knows there are layers and layers of obfuscation involved, and it should be outted.

I guess you could say I'd fall into more readily believing the "LIHOP" mindset (not saying I do, yet) than the "MIHOP", or 'staged/faked' crowd.

IN FACT, to be honest, since I do see "LIHOP" as more plausible, (and WAY, WAY above the little minds of someone like our former Presidents), then the noise from the other camp is actually getting in the way, I think.

reply to post by weedwhacker

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Thank you for your honest assesment, as I truly appreciate it. I can accept that we will just continue to agree to disagree on many aspects concerning the offical explanation regarding 9/11.

reply to post by trebor451

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In respect to Seagull and ATS I will bite my tongue, but trust me when I say I also know your type as well in the DOD community. It always fascinates me how you 3 letter agency guys with your full scope polys think you are God's gift to the earth.

However, do me a favor and don't put words in my mouth.

I'm aware of are the idiots who denigrate the memories of those who died on 9/11 and who accuse the Pentagon and military establishment itself of executing this. Like you! And CIT. And PfT. And AE911.

Please kindly point out where I ever accused the Pentagon and military establishment itself of executing this. With your 25 years of participating in the DOD community you should know how compartmentalized it is and that it would be absurd to think that the military establishment would execute an inside operation.

Do yourself a favor and begin to look at those above the pentagon and military establishment and you will soon find your answers. The evidence is out there if you want to find it.

My last question to you is why is it that whenever someone questions 9/11 they are relugated to unpatriotic or someone that is denigrating the memories of those lost in 9/11? I really don't get this.

Based on the definition, it would appear the word "patriot" is just another word for love - love of country and love for our fellow citizens who share a freedom seldom seen in the rest of the world. Since no law can legislate love, and since love is an emotion born in the heart, no one can make us love one another or our country. It must come from the heart.

Down through our history we have seen terrible things committed by counterfeit patriots seeking to advance their own agenda. In the '50s, demagogue Sen. Joseph McCarthy conducted a witch hunt purportedly to expose communists in and out of government.

To those who would ask why raise these embarrassing moments in history, the answer is simple. The past can teach us a valuable lesson and enable us to recognize phony patriotism so we can prevent it from happening again.

True patriots are average Americans who each day go to work to keep our industrial engine humming. They marry and raise families that are the glue that unites us all. They come from many places, but they come of their free will. Their patriotism gets stronger each year as they live the miracle of America.

Their patriotism is quiet, not bellicose or strident. It is born of love of country and love of all our fellow citizens.

reply to post by weedwhacker

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Therefore you are upholding the 9-11 Flight 93 OFFICIAL STORY script which states that 80% of Flight 93 was buried up to 40 feet deep in the mine strip hole and that one black box was buried 15 feet deep and the other black box was buried 25 feet deep. Correct?

By light-weight means the black boxes do not weigh tons like the engine. (APU unit according to you) But the black boxes were allegedly buried much deeper than the engine which looks like it just came out of the backhoe bucket.



How did the black boxes somehow drill their way through the alleged 70% or so compressed mass of the fuselage and its contents which were allegedly buried in the hole before them? Or do you believe 70% of the aircraft was buried between 25 feet and 40 feet deep in the soil? If so, how did all that soil above the 25 foot deep level manage to flow down into the hole and cover up the crater? More 9-11 magic? The soil was actually heaped up a bit over the alleged tiny hole containing the large airplane.



Cartoon science? More only on 9-11 physics? Was the soil liquified only on the morning of 9-11 and then the science returned to normal later on? Where is all that mass of aircraft? How did those small backhoes dig down 40 feet when all the available photos show them sitting on the surface? Why didn't they dig deeper than 40 feet?

posted by SPreston

Even if the tail of the aircraft had entered the strip mine following the previous mass of the aircraft; why would the light-weight black boxes be buried deeper than the alleged multi-ton turbofan engine allegedly found mere inches below the surface? And assuming that the mass of the fuselage containing seats, passengers, landing gear, baggage, fuel, and crumpled aluminum was buried ahead of them; how could one light-weight black box be officially buried at 15 feet, and the other light-weight black box be officially buried at 25 feet? Sounds fishy to me. How did those black boxes get past all of that alleged aircraft mass buried ahead of them?

[edit on 7/9/09 by SPreston]

posted by weedwhacker

SPreston would have us believe that the kinetic energy (momentum) of the empennage section of the airplane would allow it to suddenly make an acute angle change of direction and travel off, rather than continuing on its previous trajectory into the ground. His 'theory' defies the laws of physics!!

Well you weedwhacker, in another thread, (here and here and here and here), tried to convince us that the turbine blading when the engines impacted the ground would fly off and suddenly make an acute angle change of direction and travel off, rather than continuing on its previous trajectory into the ground, and fly two miles away into the 2nd alleged debris pile at Indian Lake. Then you hightailed it out of that thread when your science was shown to be the nonsense which it was, didn't you?

Flight 93 alleged impact speed - 495 knots - 570 mph - 255 mps - 836 fps

Is that called hypocrisy?

Do you think you are fooling anybody with your deliberate disinformation weedwhacker?





[edit on 7/9/09 by SPreston]

posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by OnTheFelt

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I guess you could say I'd fall into more readily believing the "LIHOP" mindset (not saying I do, yet) than the "MIHOP", or 'staged/faked' crowd.

IN FACT, to be honest, since I do see "LIHOP" as more plausible, (and WAY, WAY above the little minds of someone like our former Presidents), then the noise from the other camp is actually getting in the way, I think.

Change of strategy perhaps?

UhOoh. You did not get permission first did you? Bad idea weedwhacker.

Does faking the Flt 93 black boxes and LIHOP have something in common?

Or is it more compatible with MIHOP?

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