I think it's good that we're looking at congressional legislation and criticizing them for abusing their power. We should do that. We should however not be completely irrational when we do it.

I've just been noticing a lot of strange talk about this bill: www.govtrack.us... HR 1592. I don't see anything strange about the bill. I don't believe that the government should enforce moral behavior. I do believe that people shouldn't hurt each other. I just have seen a lot of conspiracy theories about the bill saying that it would restrict free speech...

This is in the text of the bill itself.



I see yet a lot of internet rumors about the bill, probably, by people who think they're trying to sound all important by spinning a random theory... which I think in turns discredits us.

I don't quite understand... why there is a lot of talk against this bill.

I do to, mostly from people who are just grabbing for a chance to smear anything the Democrats or Government does. I am by no means for any political party but it sure seems that people are complaining and making stuff up about some things just for the sake of doing so.

reply to post by Frankidealist35

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I am against it because it is racist and sexist. It is already a crime to harm someone. Why should it be anymore of a crime just because you did it because of their race, gender, or sexual preference? This just creates special legal classes of people and it is wrong. If somebody harms me just because they decided to they should face the same crime for harming someone else for whatever reason.

Now if you think all people that harm people deserve more jail time then at least that is fair, but I dont think there is any room in the prisons to hold people much longer.

Let me ask a question, with suffering the risk of attack myself. Is the reason that caucasians are excluded from this bill (as a target of hate) because of the level of minorities that would suffer underneath this bill?

Wouldn't that be true equality? Isn't anything else just pandering to minorities and special interest groups?

Honest questions, no snarkiness meant.

reply to post by grapesofraft

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That is no real argument against it. You just want for people who would normally not be charged for crimes for their violence because they're attacking minorities to not be charged for it. I don't see how this bill is racist or sexist. I think you're grasping at straws here. I'm against government regulation- but- this bill does nothing you say. It provides no special protection. It only applies enforcement to where something should have been there all along. Shouldn't minorities have been protected all this time? This bill doesn't infringe on your free speech. It only enforces protection to people where they should have been protecting in the first place. I don't like government regulation here. I just don't see how this bill is sexist, or, does any of the things people against it say it does. I'll be against bad bills that give the government too much power- I am against the monopolization of force that the government has- but- this bill does nothing that people say it does.

Whether you're a Republican or Democrat, think hard about what Corry adds: "A government powerful enough to pick and choose which thoughts to prosecute is a government too powerful."

www.cato.org...

Quick Rundown (examples):


www.onenewsnow.com...




[edit on 8-7-2009 by infolurker]

reply to post by mikerussellus

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That's a question I've thought about too. But when you think about it- hate crimes aren't usually committed against whites... we aren't usually on the receiving end of hate crimes that often. I would agree that there shouldn't be a racial slant here- but- this bill does nothing that people against it seem to say that it does.

Why are so many people against the hate crimes bill?
Hate crimes.. A savage hypocrisy!!

Well.. If you are going to break the law.. And you hurt someone.. The government wants you to know if you hurt someone else.. Well you better make sure they are the same color as you are!!!

Hate crime bills are a savage hypocrisy!! It only serves to group us up as race and color, but not as human beings!

Did you ever see the south park when Cartman threw the Rock at Tolkin?

reply to post by infolurker

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I don't see what's wrong with the bill. What a hate crime is- is clearly established in the bill. I'm all for criticizing the establishment here- but- can we at least do it honestly? None of those arguments really hold up... I haven't heard of a law enforcement abusing the power to enforce protection of hate crimes to restrict free speech yet... if we're going to criticize the establishment let's at least do it where problems exist.

reply to post by Frankidealist35

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There already are laws against attacking minorities and if they are not enforced now why do you think they will be enforced with another bill.

The truth is there are already laws for harming all classes of humans and they are enforced now, so why do we need another bill.

Why should you get more time for killing someone just because they are black then you get for killing someone just because you wanted to take their money?

Please give me one example where some minority is harmed and it isnt already a crime to harm them just because they are human.

[edit on 8-7-2009 by grapesofraft]

This is the Text of the bill here.

This next part is from Sec 6. Sec. 249 b.1.D.



You mean like this double jeopardy clause right here? This is saying that if the federal government deems a state sentence too lenient the federal government can step in and re-prosecute the case and the person can receive another sentence.

Also at the very end of this bill.



Take away from that what you will, but it states that people prosecuted by this bill before it gets ruled unconstitutional will still have to serve their sentence.

Now for the meat and potatoes of the discussion. Why do we even need a hate crimes bill? We already have laws that deal with crimes, this bill is racist. It pretty much states that people should get longer tougher sentences because of the color of their skin and or gender, or lack there of, or sexual orientation.

It's a stupid and pointless bill that serves no reason other to throw people in jail for a longer period of time because the person they had an altercation with somebody that just happened to be of a different gender, race, or sexual orientation. It's a thought crime is what it is.

If this bill passes the senate welcome to thought crime legislation.

reply to post by zysin5

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That's an interesting argument. You could argue that all the hate crime bill does though is to allow the police to punish people who actually are engaged in real hate crimes. All it does- you could argue is extend the law to the 14th amendment... and that it doesn't really give them any new power. At least let's be honest here.

Every crime is a hate crime, and if caucasians are excluded, isn't that a bias that needs to be addressed?

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

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As I've already pointed out the bill doesn't prevent thought. It only prevents acts against minorities. I see the context as to why it could be constitutionally argued as wrong here- but- really at least be honest if you're criticizing the establishment. This is not going to take away your free speech. You shouldn't really be hurting minorities or other people and getting away with it in the first place. I think that something like this shouldn't be passed in the first place- that is my opinion- but- I don't see anything wrong with it- constitutionally really.

reply to post by mikerussellus

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I think you're reading a bit too deeply into this. I think you know what kind of hate crime they're referring to. We don't need to be intellectually dishonest here when we're criticizing this bill. I don't think we should make bills about race, or gender... but this bill does nothing that you say that it does.

reply to post by Frankidealist35

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Nobody is saying it is just about Free Speech. We are saying it is reverse discrimination against straight white people. Dont we deserve equal protection under the law?

If I murder a man because of his color, or because I'm just a bad person it doesn't really matter. The murder was wrong, the murder is already illegal.

So, what you are really wanting to do is make peoples thoughts illegal.

If it was just a case of the actions those people take, then those things are already illegal. As such, it's the thought/motive that is being added, not the actual action.

reply to post by grapesofraft

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I would think that we get superior protection under the law. Don't you? I however would think that in order for this bill to be completely fair- that they should- not make a distinction of race... but... I actually will probably be the first to admit that blacks do get less protection than we do.

reply to post by badmedia

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Murdering people and thinking thoughts are two different things.

Your thoughts=what you think about
Your actions=what you do in the real world

Thoughts are different from actions.

I dont even see how this law will even be enforcable in the real world. We cant read peoples minds at the exact time they harm someone, so we dont really know why they hurt the other person.

Now lets say I am part of the KKK and I kill a black man in a fight. At that moment do you know for a fact I killed him because he was black or that I would have killed anybody that I got in a fight with at that moment because I was angry about something else.