This is just amazing, Guy can boil water with his own energy

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Look I am not saying this "power" you describe does not exist! I am open for ANYTHING! I have a pretty open mind. What I am saying is that when belief takes a sharp detour from Testability (kind of like that beer ad , Drinkability?) then Science takes a back seat to faith.

What about the test that Kaytagg talked about in this thread? It was a SIMPLE SIMPLE science test he described!

Asking the monk who uses his "power" or "energy" to make himself lighter to do it while standing on a scale!

The scale is NOT going to lie. It is a scientific instrument that is calibrated.

Would you agree that a test like that would be scientific?

Or would more excuses come about as to a reason that it could not be done on a scale?

If you want a sample of scientific study on westernized Qi gong, here is a sample site that explains the basis of it.

Scientific Aspects of chi

I hope it helps you to a more understanding path that is not paved with ridicule and judgment to those you deem ignorant.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


I totally agree that would be a great test to see if that particular skill was actually being performed or if it was an illusion.

Another I'd like to see would be to shoot him with an Heat Sensing camera to see if there is more heat being produced by his hand which is warming the pot, than the rest of his body.

There are multiple little tests that people could do.

My argument was that Kaytagg was dismissing the idea entirely, based on his very limited experience with Western Illusionists and Magicians. That is a bad principle to live on.

~Keeper

reply to post by LeTan


LeTan I strongly suggest you NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER

compare Science and Scientific experiments to "ridicule and judgment".

NEVER!

EVER!
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EVER!

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


Excuse me if you think that i was referring to you, but the comments made by kaytagg and the video of a tree falling on a man as an example of "mind over matter" was ridicule and judgment no?

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Yes THANK YOU! That is what I wanted to hear!

I completely agree with you that it CANNOT be immediately written off as magic.

It needs to be tested and understood from a perspective of Science.

That is how we Separate Harry Potter and Magic the Gathering from Scientific American and Popular Mechanics.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

 

My argument was that Kaytagg was dismissing the idea entirely, based on his very limited experience with Western Illusionists and Magicians. That is a bad principle to live on.

~Keeper

Well I'm sorry to come off that way, I just have no patience for what Houdini called "Humbug," which was the word at the time for "bull%#@*." And this is clearly humbuggery if I ever saw it. The only reason I KNOW this can't possibly be true is because he performs it in front of whomever is willing to watch, except for a scientist. RED FLAG RED FLAG!

Also, if you watch the video closely, you can see that there is no heat coming off his hand. The Infra Red camera doesn't lie. His hands stay cool, while tinfoil paper thing heats up. It isn't until he grabs the hot tinfoil that heat is transferred from the tinfoil to his hand. Now I'm sure he has an excuse for this, but, there is something very important to consider here:

If he could really control the direction of heat flow, why would his hand get hot from holding the tinfoil? He should be able to stop his hand from absorbing heat from the tinfoil. The Infra Red camera actually tells us that in this demonstration, he is taking heat away from the tinfoil when he handles it with his hands. You can clearly see this, as his hands become white only after grabbing and manipulating the hot tinfoil. Not before.

Go ahead. Watch it again.

reply to post by Kaytagg


MYTH

BUSTED!

After reading all these comments i had to chime in with my 2 cents worth.

Personally i do believe in chi energy. I do think we humans have something in us that can make us do amazing things. I think the link between our mind and body can be strong enough to allow us to perform miracles and i think there have been many people in this world over the course of history who have done very unexplainable things that the mind cannot explain. So we call them magic or miracles. Some people have done things without knowing how themselves and call it a gift from god or divine intervention.

I truly believe in the power of the human mind, spirit and body which is really what eastern philosophy teaches at its core. The harmony and balance of man with himself and man with nature. Once this is achieved then anything could be possible. I think we are ever evolving and changing as a species and that the human brain itself is capable of much more than it was thousands of years ago.

This all being said i do however use that mind of mine to question anyone who purports to have a special ability. I believe in the idea of chi i just do not believe everything i "See" or "Hear", for the very reason that there are people who can imitate the same said feats of wonder without using any special powers. They can deliver the same package to my 5 senses without purpoting to use special powers, rather using MAGIC. So one has to ask themselves, if it is possible to do these same things without powers or abilities harnessed from the mind and body, then whats the point in the first place. If its to show how humans can harness their own untapped abilities then ok again is this so i can save money on electricity and use my chi power instead of my stove to boil my eggs? Surely a group of people claiming such gifts and or abilities has gained more with the lifelong meditation and study than doing simple parlor tricks that a non master can do using slight of hand.

I also give pause to someone who refuses to allow themselves to be tested. If you live in the light then your not afraid of your truth being brought forward into the light so others can wonder at this marvel and maybe want to learn it as well. Why does any group seek to keep special abilities closed to only themselves and their innner sanctum of buddies or family. Why dont they want ALL of man to share in this. Hell seriously if i had the power to levitate and i woke up one day being able to do this the first thing i would do is try and have it tested and find out HOW i am doing it so others can learn too. This is a gift that would benefit all of mankind and i would go down in history as being the one who taught it to my fellow humans. My immortality would be set, and everyone would remember me forever lol. To me the only reason anyone keeps anything in the dark is to keep it concealed from prying eyes who would eventually discern the truth and reveal the mystery. This is the same principle with which stage magic operates. Conceal the truth of the trick.

I enjoy stage magic for the same reason i enjoy all things mystical. As a human i am drawn to things i cannot explain and things of wonder. Mysterious things such as UFO's, the supernatural world like ghosts, esp, etc etc. The human mind craves these things. thats why not one kid ever, has failed to be awed by magic. Its our nature. I want to be mystefied and sometimes i just dont want to know how. Faith and the belief in things unprovable is what gives mankind hope. In the darkest days of your life there will come a time when faith is the only thing that will sustain you through the trials of your life. Faith in something or someone. The beliefs you have give you hope for better days. Sometimes its the veil of uncertainty that keeps us going.
If you demystify everything and explain everything one day with science then what then. What does our ever questioning mind do then. Let those who wish to believe have their belief!

reply to post by fizzy1


That is the beauty of Science fellow ATSer! There is ALWAYS another door behind the one that you opened!

We discover smaller and smaller pieces of building material the more powerful instruments and devices we design and build.

From Molecules and Atoms to Protons and Neutrons and Quarks to Clusters of Galaxies to Super Clusters. Heck even something called like the Great Wall of super clusters formed together. We do not live for very long 100 years if we are lucky and if we could beat aging we would still have to beat damage to our bodies and minds that destroy brain cells.

Maybe someday we will live forever but right now we live through time. We live through generations.

Pass on all we have learned and acquired to the next generation through data and information.

We have that as an advantage though. We have time on our side. Time to keep building and progressing. Building giant telescopes and electron microscopes and Particle Accelerators.

The discoveries we can make HAVE no limit! As much as we think we understand about something there is more that we do NOT know about it than we do! There is ALWAYS going to be another question to ask. Or an accident that happens that leads to a discovery.

The great human is not the one who is entertained by the magician but the one who looks behind the curtain.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

There are no tricks involved, if that were the case, than I would not be able to use my Chi to have OOBES and other amazing things that go on when I meditate.

You can use chi to have OOBEs? Can you U2U me a guide on how, or better... Make a thread for everyone?

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers and Kaytagg


Me: "Hey Science!"

Science: "Yes?"

Me: "How does gravity work?"

Science: "Uhm...."

Me: "Then, you mean it does not exist?"

Science: "Er...."


Yeah.... thought so.

Any more bright ideas?

-Edrick

Nice find!

Starred and Flagged!

Me: "Hey Science"

Science: "Yeah, what?"

Me: "Why is it that all of our different models of atomic structure do not work in all instances?"

Science: "Uhm... were working on it."

Me: "So, you mean that there are FORCES in the universe that SCIENCE cannot currently explain?"

Science: "Er, yeah."

Me: "got anouther question for ya..."

Science: "What now?"

Me: "If matter is energy (E=MC^2) and Energy can neither be created nor destroyed..."

Science: "Yeah?"

Me: "Where did the big bang come from?"

Science: "Well, we don't really know that..."

Me: "So, if you don't know something, then it does not exist, right?"

Science: "THAT IS NOT HOW SCIENCE WORKS AT ALL!"


Science can neither prove nor disprove things that cannot be directly observed.

This includes the supernatural, God, Magic, Chi, Most Universal forces, etc...

This does not mean that science has necessarily DISPROVEN them, it just means that humans currently lack the perceptual abilities, theoretical framework, or current observational hypothesis to explain them.

Do not project abilities onto science that it does not posess.

-Edrick

reply to post by Edrick


Come on think about what you are saying here.

"Wow I do not understand how that works but I WANT to know and will devise experiments in an attempt to test and understand it"

Is a FAR cry from saying

"Wow I do not understand how that works...It must be magical"

Originally posted by Kaytagg
If they can't do it in a controlled environment, where a scientist can measure it, then they are faking it.

Just ask any magician if he can perform his tricks in a controlled environment, where scientists can measure it. He/she won't be able to. Why? Because there is nothing special going on here -- just an illusion.

for a start, it is just conceivable, and this may be difficult for some people to come to gripps with, that our science isn't capable of perceiving or understanding all the forces in our world. and perhaps this chi energy is one of those forces. i know the possible fallibility of our science is sacriledge for many people, but really, how are new discoveries in science made? from things we dont understand.

the chinese have great knowledge of herbs and medicines and have been curing people for millenia. curiously all their medical knowledge supposedly came from their first god-king/emperor, who came from the stars. (Alien medicine and science? no wonder we dont understand how it works).

scientists from a university (i forget which one) did go out and observe and try to measure this stuff with instruments - there is a video on youtube. they were quite spooked and their instruments registered stuff that they couldnt explain.

on a personal note i've had a massage and been given chi, and the hands on my back felt BOILING hot. hotter than you could get from friction; so i dont know how he did it.

personally i believe there's something to it; and the guy who can burn paper looks genuine to me. i dont see whats so strange really. why not? its probably why acupuncture is effective for many people.

this remind anyone of star wars? maybe chi is 'the force'. use the force, lonestar.

Originally posted by Kaytagg

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

 

My argument was that Kaytagg was dismissing the idea entirely, based on his very limited experience with Western Illusionists and Magicians. That is a bad principle to live on.

~Keeper

Well I'm sorry to come off that way, I just have no patience for what Houdini called "Humbug," which was the word at the time for "bull%#@*." And this is clearly humbuggery if I ever saw it. The only reason I KNOW this can't possibly be true is because he performs it in front of whomever is willing to watch, except for a scientist. RED FLAG RED FLAG!

Also, if you watch the video closely, you can see that there is no heat coming off his hand. The Infra Red camera doesn't lie. His hands stay cool, while tinfoil paper thing heats up. It isn't until he grabs the hot tinfoil that heat is transferred from the tinfoil to his hand. Now I'm sure he has an excuse for this, but, there is something very important to consider here:

If he could really control the direction of heat flow, why would his hand get hot from holding the tinfoil? He should be able to stop his hand from absorbing heat from the tinfoil. The Infra Red camera actually tells us that in this demonstration, he is taking heat away from the tinfoil when he handles it with his hands. You can clearly see this, as his hands become white only after grabbing and manipulating the hot tinfoil. Not before.

Go ahead. Watch it again.

everyone's a skeptic these days. sometimes i wonder if its cuz they're scared of what they cant understand.

everyone's like: prove it to me.

why should someone with genuine abilities feel the need to prove them to people who laugh?. i certainly wouldnt.

skeptics... live a little. the world just might be a more wonderful and mysterious place than you give it credit for.

there are other forces too - like intuition. our science denies it even exists - and yet - intuition is behind a lot of scientific and other discoveries all the time. my intuition says this is real...

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by Edrick

 

Come on think about what you are saying here.

"Wow I do not understand how that works but I WANT to know and will devise experiments in an attempt to test and understand it"

Is a FAR cry from saying

"Wow I do not understand how that works...It must be magical"

Are you done putting words into my mouth, and completely missing the entire point now?


I am saying, that just because science CANNOT explain it, does NOT mean that it does not exist.

Like how science cannot explain Gravity, or Quantum mechanics, or whatever else they still have not figured out.

And yet these things still EXIST.

I am SAYING, that this "Chi" energy is NOT magic, but a form of knowledge (Read in LATIN: SCIENCE) that we have not fully investigated, or explained yet.

"Any sufficiently Advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arther C Clarke.

-Edrick

I use to have a lab flask that i could make boil by holding it.

Very simple to make just take a lab flask and fill the ball of the flask about 3/4 full and draw a strong vacuum on it and seal it.

As long as you hold it by the stem it will not boil.
if you hold it by the ball part where the water is the heat of your hand will cause it to boil.

The boiling point of water drops under a vacuum.
this is why your blood would boil in space if you did not wear a spacesuit.

You want to get a piece of paper to burn by touching it just soak the paper in sodium or potassium chlorate and let dry.

Then just before you want to do the trick put a little petroleum jelly on your finger(to protect your finger) and then put a drop of sulfuric acid on the finger.
When you are ready to do the trick pick up the paper with your other hand (the one without the acid)and touch the paper with the finger with the acid on it.
And the paper will burn where touched.


As for this guys boiling water check this out it creates IR radiation and would show on a IR heat sensing camera as heat.
www.faqs.org...

The foil acts as a reflector causing the heat signature on the back as the IR pad was moved.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by ANNED]

I feel truly sorry for those who have never experienced this.
I had experiences with it when I studied martial arts.

Believe it or not, but when you deny all things 'unseen',
its only you that misses out.

It must be too far out of a comfort zone just to say, well...what if?
Can't quite figure out that mentality. Maybe its just fear.
You can always go back to your happy place if its all 'baloney'!

Wow, I really thought this stuff was common knowledge!
Like I say, thats too bad so many are missing out on the benefits.

I could start a thread every day on all the good it has done me.
Good luck in life everyone! S & F

[edit on 9-7-2009 by dodadoom]