"Anti" religious intollerance

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posted on May, 7 2004 @ 12:59 AM
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After being on web forums for the past 5 years, something has always really bugged me: why is it that many of those who so proudly and vehemently claim the title of "Ant-religious" or "Atheist" or even more intolerant than the Christians, Jews, and Muslims they claim are so hateful, intolerant, backward, and stupid? Isn't this kind of hatemongering just the kind of thing you all despise in these other religions? And why are religions such as Wicca and other "pagan" religions left untouched by these violent "intellectual" reactions?

As a Chrisitian myself, one who believes himself to be very open minded and lover of science, I find this double standard highly disturbing. Labelling all Christians as single-minded and stupid is just as intolerant as lumping all of those people into an equally ludicrous stereotype.

Food for thought. Let the flames come in!




posted on May, 7 2004 @ 01:04 AM
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Beause quite frankly, Christianity, Judiasim, and Islam present the biggest threats to their way of thinking.

We (many of us, anyway) have a foundation in science which supports our religion. But science is their religion, and we're not allowed to use their religion to justify our religion. Therefor the monothiestic religions are a major threat. Who would you attack, the major threat, or the nuscance? (sorry, my spelling is attrociious when I'm away from Microsoft Word...)

EDIT: Fixed the direction of a (

[Edited on 5-7-2004 by junglejake]



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 02:23 AM
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I totally agree with you there!

Another question I want to add is: If all you atheists / agnostics(or whatever) don't believe in God, why do they putt so much energy into trying to prove or convince other poeple God doesn't exist?

Since I dont believe in say Buddism, I couldnt be bothered less by it, why then does Christianity bother you so much if you don't believe in it?



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 08:26 AM
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I have no faith.....but i'm not intolerant of religion. In fact I get jealous of people who have a strong faith because I feel that I am in some way missing out on something. Its not that I haven't tried to believe.....i have really tried but for some stupid reason I can't accept that I am not in control of my life. However, I think i might be able to shed some light for you, on the other side of the coin.

I think the reason that some non-believers attack organised religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) is becuase the majority of people within mainstream religion proclaim their faith to the world. I myself do not think the public show of faith is very admirable. I do however respect people with a private faith and an open mind.

The reason why Paganism is not a target for these people is because Pagans (i think) believe in the power of the natural world and worship tangible idols, something you can see and feel e.g the sun and the wind etc.....whereas organised religion is based on faith and belief in the fact that a God does exist.

OpusDei - i'm afraid you are guilty of stereotyping there mate! Atheists do not ALL try to disprove God or convince anyone that he doesn't...SOME do.... Just because SOME Islamic terrorists want all infidels dead doesn't mean that all Muslims do...........one last thing, why does atheism bother you if you do not agree?? If Buddism does not bother you why does atheism??......best advice i can give is to ignore what they say. If it makes them happy to try to disprove it, let them. You and I know that will never happen, just like trying to prove that god does exist! I'm afraid there is only one person who knows and that would be God himself!!

junglejake - to be honest, NOTHING presents a threat to anyones way of thinking.....People decide themselves what to believe....why the big fuss if someone believes something different to you?

My signature illustates the point.

One persons dream is another persons nightmare.

If it was proved that god existed it would be your dream, but a nightmare for non-believers and vice versa.

anyway think of me in your prayers as i can not pray myself.

**(If i have caused offence to anyone in my post i am deeply sorry)**



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 09:58 AM
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Nerevar, we may have argued in the past, but I don't think you offended anyone in your post, definitely not me. You made good points. It's good to see someone without faith, who may be athiest (I'm not gonna label you, you never said really what you were) who is tolerant of religions and isn't out to get them. I know I accused you of that before, and I'm sorry, it seems as if I was mistaken, and I'm glad for that.

It is true that many people feel the need to belittle religion (Christianity or Islam in particular), and stereotype believers as ignorant and intolerant. It's true that this is hypocritical, because those people set out to tell us how wrong we are, how stupid we are, and how closed minded we are; but in reality they are guilty of the same thing. I'm tolerant of mostly everyone's ideas (I'm not cool with Hitler, Saddam, etc, you get my point) yet I'm a Christian. I accept other people's beliefs and the fact that people can believe what they want, but I hold my own as the most important to me.

This is the way many Christians and religious people are, especially on this message board, and I'm proud to be a part of that. If those of us on ATS/BTS can present ourselves and our religion in this way, perhaps we can start to spread a better understanding of our religions.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Beause quite frankly, Christianity, Judiasim, and Islam present the biggest threats to their way of thinking.


That is pretty high and mighty of you, don't you think? While I am 'spiritual' (if you desire to call it that), I am not religious, but not athiest. So perhaps I am not the best person to be devils advicate on this, but eee..

Some people are simply out to bash religion; that is true, but your metality seems to be that of the believe that all individuals of such a denomination are this way. Are all christians the kind that beat their wives and sexually abuse their children? Quite frankly that is what I usually hear, but should I believe that a select few that make it into the media are representative of the majority? Perhaps Athiests will stop condeming you when you will stop condeming them...or vice versa. Who is going to be the bigger man?



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by OpusDei

Another question I want to add is: If all you atheists / agnostics(or whatever) don't believe in God, why do they putt so much energy into trying to prove or convince other poeple God doesn't exist?

Since I dont believe in say Buddism, I couldnt be bothered less by it, why then does Christianity bother you so much if you don't believe in it?



Because Buddhism isn't trying to make policy in government. Buddhists aren't lobbying against gay marriage and abortion rights.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 11:01 PM
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i guess you could say i'm an athiest. i dont believe in god and i do not follow any religion.

however i am all for someone else following any religion they want. it is not for me to decide what is best for someone else, that is for them to determine. i choose not to practice any religion, i dont hate religion and i have nothing against it i just feel it has nothing to offer me.(dont try to argue this, its just a personal feeling, i wouldnt try to sway you to believe the opposite of what you believe)

it irritates me to see other athiests and non-believers acting mean and bitter about religion and towards practioners of religion. sad to say but those who are being bashed then in turn make generalizing remarks about how atheists are angry and bitter and hate religion. there are those on both sides of the issue that believe THEY are right and the other side is wrong and ignorant stupid moronic, whatever. there's intolerance on both sides but this is not to say imply or sway you to believe either side is bad, worse than the other. i am merely pointing out people are focusing on those who serve as poor examples for that "side" in this instead of those who give a better example of how to act.

our views are our opinions, much like our faith or lack thereof, it is neither wrong or right, it is what it is.

i support the right of freedom of religion, to practice any religion or none at all. i bash noone for practicing a religion and i never will. we have free will and i will not try to stifle it.

i believe religion in its most basic form is good and does good things for people, but like anything else it can be and has been used for someone else's twisted purposes, usually evil. there's a good and a bad side to religion, practicing it and not practicing it.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by Nerevar
The reason why Paganism is not a target for these people is because Pagans (i think) believe in the power of the natural world and worship tangible idols, something you can see and feel e.g the sun and the wind etc.....whereas organised religion is based on faith and belief in the fact that a God does exist.



I'm pagan and have been a faery-wiccan for many years and I need to correct this statement a bit.

To the issue of worship, pagans really don't worship anything in particular. We certainly don't have idols. The confusion here lies in the fact that we DO indeed look upon the sun and the moon and nature in general as manifestations of the God/Goddess, and appreciate their magickal qualities and associations fully, but never worship them in the Christian sense as being below us. Rather we look upon them and ourselves as being part of the whole. Or rather the all. Meaning we are all made from the same substances, basically.

The reason I think that we aren't targeted for ridicule and blasting is because part of our belief is that we don't proselytize. It's just not our way. We prefer to lead our spiritual lives quietly (for the most part) and set ourselves as examples to others who may come to respect the natural ways of this life.

Now this in no way means that we impugn any religion whereupon proselytizing is a major cornerstone of their belief system. Not at all. My personal opinion is that a persons spiritual beliefs are sacred and if this is what you believe you are to do. More power to you.

The only problem I have is in religious persons who think the way my mother does. Love and acceptance just isn't the byword here. Only quoting rules and regulations and "do's" and "do nots". And the BIG one that really gets me, judging EVERYONE by the way they look, think, act, feel, wear...etc etc.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye

Originally posted by OpusDei

Another question I want to add is: If all you atheists / agnostics(or whatever) don't believe in God, why do they putt so much energy into trying to prove or convince other poeple God doesn't exist?

Since I dont believe in say Buddism, I couldnt be bothered less by it, why then does Christianity bother you so much if you don't believe in it?



Because Buddhism isn't trying to make policy in government. Buddhists aren't lobbying against gay marriage and abortion rights.


Well, here's the dilemma. Homosexual marriage is not something for a Christian nation, and there is no "right" of abortion. A right is something one can do that will not effect others, and it is obvious that abortion is not as such.
Also, look a little broader, not just nationally. The climate is changing, and not merely on the internet. Disdain for Christians, Jews and Muslims is going to rise even further. A new religion is going to come about that is not exclusive, except to those three previously mentioned religions. The new religion is going to be a mix of religions like paganism, Hinduism and Taoism. It'll give you a feeling of spirituality without any concrete morals or ethics.
Why the new religion? Because we are programmed to be spiritual, to search for a God. Those pursuing the New World Order know this, and they are going to give it to us, only the "Rainbow" Religion will not interfere with their agenda.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 09:15 AM
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I'm not the preaching-kind of agnostic, but maybe those who are, are just trying to free the minds of some of their brothers and sisters?

Maybe they're just deceived to see so many people fooled so easily by religions?

Just my opinion on the issue..

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by m0rbid]



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 09:28 AM
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Also, look a little broader, not just nationally. The climate is changing, and not merely on the internet. Disdain for Christians, Jews and Muslims is going to rise even further. A new religion is going to come about that is not exclusive, except to those three previously mentioned religions. The new religion is going to be a mix of religions like paganism, Hinduism and Taoism. It'll give you a feeling of spirituality without any concrete morals or ethics.


are you saying that unless you're a christian jew or a muslim you are without a moral compass of any kind?

are you daring to imply that those who do not follow the "big 3" are somehow morally bankrupt or corrupt?

do you truly believe that only these three or religion in general can give a person a sense of morality?

or are you saying that those who do not follow the "big 3" are morally ambiguous at best?

i understand you have some deep issues with liberals and socialists but dont confuse them for athiests and non-followers of the big 3.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 09:55 AM
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I am saying that these three religions are what the rest of you call intolerant, or exclusive. I am saying that these three are not the types to conform easily or to mold with otehrs, therefore they must be removed, one way or another.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 09:58 AM
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As far as having "issues" with people who have different beliefs than I, I certainly do not choose to throw rocks. Needless to say, I know that I am correct, but I have no doubt that if my beliefs were different, I'd still feel that way. As the old saying goes, there but for the grace of God go I. As long as a belief does not involve violating another's rights, I do not feel ill about them.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 10:11 AM
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then perhaps you should have said that instead.

but i still dont see your point.

religion (in any form) is not there to conform to anyone or anything else. just like people, they do not conform, compromise perhaps or alter themselves to fit in but this has been done to religion numerous times, catholicism being a prime example of this. its been shaped and reshaped to fit the mold of those who run the church, however what they have done is taken their religion and bastardized it. its not religion anymore, its dogma and stigma, an idealized way of life from some very sick hypocrites.

the twisting and warping, the censoring and editing of these religions over the centuries have made them all but unrecognizable from their original forms, and since many a holy man has destroyed scriptures that didnt fit their ideals we may never know what these religions were truly like way back when.

even the heads of these are not without a fault, they let their own agenda get in the way of the teachings.

the intolerance i see is the intolerance inserted into these religions by man himself and is now being taught as "morality".

while morality may teach you homosexuality is wrong, it is not your place to judge others. while you have been taught to believe abortion is wrong people are free to live as they will and they must pay for their actions with someone else, noone on this earth. (that is to say if there is a god, yaweh, allah, etc)

trying to make others live your way of life is intolerance, letting them live as they will and letting them find their own way whether you think its right or wrong is about all you can do and all you should do. those who want salvation shall find it, those who do not never will.

but i strongly doubt there is anything anyone can do to get rid of these religions, they are too vast and their followers are many. they reach all over the globe. you would probably have better luck trying to kill every ant on earth first.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 11:08 AM
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Bunk, pure bunk. Not only that, but you are now twisting religion - mine. It is not my job to judge, that is to say, determine who goes to Hell or Heaven as that is God's job. On the other hand, I can determine what is right and what is wrong, and I do this by using the Creator of Law's book. Homosexuality - wrong. Murdering the unborn - wrong. Not complicated at all. The whole "You can't judge me!" thing is taken out of context because people want to do what they want to do without the consternation of their peers bothering their heart as they make it even harder.

As far as getting rid of the three exclusive religions, I didn't say they will necessarily be successful, but that is what they want. They want them replaced with a religion, I call it the Rainbow religion as it will take on the colors of many combined, and that religion will be what you are saying is right, lacking in morality and no judging of the fuit on a tree, but plenty of empty spiritualism.

Understand, this is nothing more than a notion in conspiracy, one that makes sense to me. Religion is a strong part of most of the world, and one which most be taken into account by those who want to control all.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 11:48 AM
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It is not my job to judge, that is to say, determine who goes to Hell or Heaven as that is God's job. On the other hand, I can determine what is right and what is wrong, and I do this by using the Creator of Law's book.


you mean the bible? you mean that book which has been edited and censored more times than we'll ever know? this is what you're basing this on? ok, go for it.

god determines what is right or wrong, not us, we either follow what he says is right or wrong or we dont. i wouldnt use the bible as a reference as i know its been corrupted.




Homosexuality - wrong


because it says so in a book? hmm, if we all took things so literally...well i dont want to get into that.

its wrong for you, great! but guilt tripping others doesnt work. as i said before those who want salvation will seek it, those who do not will do as they will. you can either get yourself all worked up into a lather over what others are doing that you have ZERO control over or you can focus on what YOU are doing. we have free will and people will live any way they want. pursuit of happiness ring a bell?

and many a gay man went into the preisthood to hide their homosexuality because society was taught by religion that homosexuality was wrong...and what happened? scandal after scandal about the molestation of children and why? because gay men we're made to feel less than human, guilt tripped into hiding who they were from everyone including themselves.




Murdering the unborn - wrong.


not saying i disagree with you here but its still a matter of free will. i dont mind that you think its wrong, i wouldnt mind if you thought it was right.

people thought having slaves was righteous and moral, they considered them to be less than human, cattle if you will and never gave a thought to it as being sinful but guess what? someone eventually said it was sinful, people thought it was morally reprehensible and slavery has ended for the most part but does continue in the black market on a limited basis. this is but ONE of many examples of how morality is relative. as time changes so does morality. views change, society changes and guess what changes? morality and religion.

people thought it was sinful to not worship god. in fact people died for not believing in god, for not worshipping god and people thought killing the unbelievers was not only good but actually righteous even though the taking of life is a sin. now we view that as barbaric and a sin.
though it still happens to this day, look at the middle east.
another example of moral relativism in action.





The whole "You can't judge me!" thing is taken out of context because people want to do what they want to do without the consternation of their peers bothering their heart as they make it even harder.


well i do what i want and i dont care what anyone thinks of what i do. of course what i do is not exactly known as it noone's business but mine. (just as what you do is not my business, you have to answer for what you do and i answer for what i do, they are mutually exlcusive) i have strong sense of morality, i think killing the unborn is wrong but i also feel that killing any living thing is wrong, i dont discriminate. lying is wrong, stealing is wrong, cheating is wrong. i didnt learn these things from religion, these are basically repugnant things that just about anyone in their right mind would agree as being wrong.

as much as you think "they" will try to push a different kind of religion to rule the world guess what? the old religions have tried to rule the world under their own set of beliefs. crusades ring a bell? how about the romans? they just about conquered all the known world of their time and pushed their way of life and religion onto others. as it happened then it happens now.

whats changed? nothing really, same concept, new religion.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 12:28 PM
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You are a walking poster boy for them, do you realize that? You allow your morals to be relative to the situation, just as they want. What for centuries was understood to be right and wrong, you say it isn't and you claim that the Bible has been altered and corrupted more times than we'll ever know. I believe that to be rationalization, and I believe that to not see murdering unborn is immoral can only be accomplished because of a hardened heart. It shouldn't take the Bible, altered or not, to see that, but in this nation as well as others, the Bible has been the basis for law and morality.

Back to the general point, though. Pay attention to what you are saying, you are lending the idea that right and wrong is as relative as the human considering the concept. Monkey, they are proud of you, I'm sure.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 12:48 PM
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Back to the general point, though. Pay attention to what you are saying, you are lending the idea that right and wrong is as relative as the human considering the concept. Monkey, they are proud of you, I'm sure.


well its an opinion, opinions are neither right or wrong. you can call them facts if you want but its still a persons belief that something is wrong.

people think eating meat is wrong. hindus believe eating a cow is sacrilege. jews dont eat pork, muslims dont eat pork. who's right? who you want it to be. what you've been taught to believe. i believe eating pork is tasty. i believe eating a steak is ok. does that mean hindus are wrong? does their belief make me wrong? since the two concepts are pretty much opposites there has to be a right and a wrong according to you. so who is wrong? what about the eating of pork? am i wrong for eating it because jews and muslims are not allowed to eat pork?

the idea of right and wrong is relative, like it or not.



posted on May, 9 2004 @ 01:34 PM
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"... What for centuries was understood to be right and wrong, you say it isn't and you claim that the Bible has been altered and corrupted more times than we'll ever know..."

You seem to think that homosexuality is a modern invention, and that every ancient culture was opposed to it.

Well, for one: wrong.
Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of recorded history. Look at the legend/myths of Gilgamesh. The warrior/lover theme was not just a literary device but a fact of life. Alexander the Great was called Great because he was a warrior. The fact that he had male lovers did not seem to bother his contemporaries.
I believe that to be rationalization, and I believe that to not see murdering unborn is immoral can only be accomplished because of a hardened heart. It shouldn't take the Bible, altered or not, to see that, but in this nation as well as others, the Bible has been the basis for law and morality.

Also, the Bible HAS been altered and translated and retranslated more times than anyone can count. Most words that have been translated into English as 'homosexual' were originally words that meant 'temple prostitute.' Other words originally meant 'weak.' I don't know about you, but I know lots of lesbians and gay men who are not weak. And, come to think of it, not a single one of them is a temple prostitute.

The Old Testament claims that homosexuality is an 'abomination' can only be taken in the context in which they were offered. Eating shellfish was an equal abomination. So was wearing clothing woven of two kinds of thread. By this Old Testament stance (quoting Leviticus) you should be condemning not only lesbians and gay men, but also everyone in Red Lobster. Especially if they are wearing cotton/poly blends.

By the way, touching the skin of a pig is an abomination, too. So let's include everyone in the NFL while we're casting this net of who is holy and who is not.

"... you are lending the idea that right and wrong is as relative as the human considering the concept..."

Oh, I see. There has only been one code of conduct throughout history, and all the good people have adhered to it while all the bad people have violated it. Perhaps you are unaware that left handed peole were considered evil? Perhaps you don't remember that during the Crusades countless Jews and Moslems were slaughtered because they didn't accept Jesus as their savior? This was considered a holy work, mind you. Perhaps you aren't aware that slave owners used the Bible to defend their right to own slaves? (There are plently of verses in the Bible that support slave ownership) In the Middle Ages, owning and reading the Bible was limited to clergy alone. For a layperson to do so was to expose him/her to accusations of witchraft, which often resulted in execution.

Karen Amstrong, in her preface to 'A History of God' states:

"When one conception of God has ceased to have meaning or relevance, it has been quietly discarded and replaced by a new theology. A fundamentalist would deny this, since fundamentalism is antihistorical: it believes that Abraham, Moses and the later prophets all experienced their God in exactly the same way as people do today. Yet if we look at our three religions [Judaism, Christianity, Islam, the 3 major mono-theistic religions] it becomes clear that there is no objective view of "God": each generation has to creat the image of God that works for it."

Why are Judaism, Christianity and Islam railed against by atheists, agnostics, scientific thinkers and those who don't fit into comfortable categories? Because these three faiths - interwoven as they are - are the most susceptible to a fundamentalist theology, one that says: "If you don't beleve what I believe then you are wrong." Some take this to the extreme and actually kill those who do not believe what they believe. Others go to great lengths to ostracize those who do not believe what they believe, going so far as to pass local, state, and federal laws against them.

This is where it looks to me like intolerance goes to far. If you don't want to be gay/pagan/atheist - fine. By all means, don't be. Just don't try to pass laws that say what I do in the privacy of my home is illegal.

I have heard stated on these pages that America is a 'Christian nation.' This is simply not true. America was founded on ideals of freedom of religious expression, and freedom from state-sanctioned religion. To insist that America is a Christian nation, or that it must be, is a dangerous notion, one that becomes appears exceedingly hyprocritical when one sees to what lengths we are (seemingly) going to eradicate the Taliban.

". . . Monkey, they are proud of you, I'm sure. . ."

I am very glad to have non-gay people vocally asserting the fact that there ARE gay people in America, and that we ARE part of the fabric of society and that my being gay does not affect the existence of straight people anywhere. If you don't like it when I hold my partner's hand in public, then look the other way. If you don't like thinking of what we do in bed, the please think of something else. But mostly, we read.

- - - A proud upstanding American Christian gay citizen - - -
Fortinbras






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