Arabs not all decendants of Ishmael?

Ishmael was Abraham's first born son whose Egyptian mother, Hagar, was the servant of Sarah, Abraham's wife. Sarah was afraid that she was getting too old to bear a child so she had her servant, acting as a concubine, to lie with Abraham to give him an heir. That heirr was Ishmael, half Jewish and half Egyptian.

Ishmael's 12 sons (Abraham's part-Jewish/part-Egyptian grandsons) became the nation known as the Ishmaelites and the modern day Arabs claim descendance from Ishmael.

Eight years after Ishmael was born, Sarah gave birth to a child, Isaac. Abraham was Isaac's father. Sarah got Abraham to consent to disown both Hagar and Ishmael and to send them out into the desert to die, but God saved them.

Isaac had two son's, Esau and Jacob. Jacob changed his name to Israel and Israel's (Jacob's) sons became the twelve tribes of Israel.

Abraham also married Keturah and they had six sons. It has been suggested that Arabs are descended from Keturah's sons.

Abraham's wives: Gen. 16:1, Gen.16:3, and Gen. 25:1. The Bible also indicates that Abraham had other concubines and had children with them. (Gen. 25:6)

So to recap - Arabs believe they are descended from Ishmael (half Jew, half egyptian] and the bible says Jews are descended from Issac (Jewish mother & father).

Encyclopedia of Islamic Myths
www.bible.ca...

The Arabs’ claim to the land of Israel rest entirely on three false assumptions:

1. All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael.
2. Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham.
3. Since the Abrahamic convenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it.

Ten Historical Facts that refute these Arab claims:

Mod Edit: Trimmed external quote. Please see link for the full text.

[edit on 7/8/09/08 by junglejake]

www.truthnet.org...

Mod Edit: See note in above post

[edit on 7/8/09/08 by junglejake]

I've read that the Palestinians are actually descendant from Edom (Esau). If that's true, I wonder why they are fighting for Israel when they've had a land of their own that they could claim from Jordan.

reply to post by octotom


In the past, the (former) Jordanian King had said that the so-called Palestinians were all Jordanians.

Some history

quotes

"Palestine and Jordan are one..." said King Abdullah in 1948.

"The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan," said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.

Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is only one land, with one history and one and the same fate," Prince Hassan of the Jordanian National Assembly was quoted as saying on February 2, 1970.

Accordingly, Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, "The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture."

More interesting quotes at the site.






[edit on 7/6/2009 by FlyersFan]

How about who gives a $#!*??

Everyone's land used to be someone elses.

The Indians in America, Aborigines in Australia ect ect.

Why is it that Israel gets to claim land from Arabs when it was taken from them by Romans millenia ago??

Aren't they doing the exact same thing that was done to them?

Oh man, maybe all those descendants of Abraham should accept the fact that he lived a few thousand freakin' years ago and colectively get over themselves.
Maybe that way there would be less conflict in the middle east and people who have actually legaly bought a piece of land in this century wouldn't have to abandon it and live in some refugee camp because of a 3000 year old myth.

reply to post by laura petrie

Maybe that way there would be less conflict in the middle east and people who have actually legaly bought a piece of land in this century wouldn't have to abandon it and live in some refugee camp because of a 3000 year old myth.

The conflict is WAY more about just the land. It's about the Jews, and a Jewish state, simply existing. Remember, in the 90s, there was a land deal brokered. But, the Palestinians rejected it because it still allowed Israel to exist.

Is there actually any historical proof for any of this, or are your only sources the Q'ran and the bible ? Riiiiiiight. Thought so. So you are in fact saying that the bit in the christian legend book about why muslims hate jews (nice sweeping generalisation by the way) does not show up in the muslim legend book. But that's ok, because in the muslim legend book, there is another reason for them to hate jews, so it's ok. Nice. I'm not quite sure I get what you're getting at, though.

reply to post by Ismail

So you are in fact saying that the bit in the christian legend book about why muslims hate jews

Complete ignorance about the Bible here. The Bible doesn't even mention Muslims in it--directly anyway--let alone how Muslims hate Jews.

does not show up in the muslim legend book.

Look through the Koran. It says to kill Jews. You're right that I generalized the Muslims today. Let me correct myself. When Mohammed was around, the Muslims hated the Jews because they wouldn't accept Mohammed as a prophet.

I'm not quite sure I get what you're getting at, though.

The conflict in the Middle East isn't about the land, as we're led to believe. It's about the hatred that some Muslims have for the Jews.

reply to post by octotom


Incorrect. The plan offered at Camp David was rejected for the simplest of reasons - it was a bad plan that the Israelis would not negotiate.

The Israeli plan was to annex 23% of the current West Bank into Israel. Included in this annexation would have been the entirety of Jerusalem, and several towns and cities to the east, effectively splitting the West bank into two discontinuous pieces. Several other wide spaces would fall under "temporary" Israeli authority. If this were not enough, the Israeli plan called for Israeli control of the West bank's water, full dominion of the airspace, the authority to send troops into Palestine whenever they so chose, and for the Jordan Valley to be controlled by an international (read - American) force. In addition, Israel did its little Nakba denial dance, and of course refused any sort of "Right of Return"

And what did the Israelis offer in exchange for all this? Israel offered to consider allowing Palestinian statehood in the remains of the West bank and Gaza.

it was a bad plan, enough said. Arafat rejected it because it was awful; not because it "allowed Israel to exist" but because it basically denied Palestine hte ability to exist.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by Ismail

 

So you are in fact saying that the bit in the christian legend book about why muslims hate jews

Complete ignorance about the Bible here. The Bible doesn't even mention Muslims in it--directly anyway--let alone how Muslims hate Jews.

does not show up in the muslim legend book.

Look through the Koran. It says to kill Jews. You're right that I generalized the Muslims today. Let me correct myself. When Mohammed was around, the Muslims hated the Jews because they wouldn't accept Mohammed as a prophet.

I'm not quite sure I get what you're getting at, though.

The conflict in the Middle East isn't about the land, as we're led to believe. It's about the hatred that some Muslims have for the Jews.

Then how does Iran have over 20,000 Arab Jews actively worshiping in Tehran?

They have real Jews, and are against those using Jews for power.

I believe those who give israel are not true Jews as they would not act the way they do if they were.

Islam lays claim to the lands of Israel? First I've heard of it.

Never heard anyone (except for non-muslims) claim that the lands belong to muslims because of God's covenant to Abraham. The only claims of land I'm hearing that stem from religion is that Jewish and Christian claim that the lands belong to the jews because of their religion/race(?).


You know why (some of the) land belongs to (some of the) muslims (although I think 'Palestinian' would be a better word, because some of the Christians also claim the land)?

It is because they lived there. And their parents lived there. And their parents parents. And they have deeds. This is why they make claims to the land. Not because of some weird religious reason.


PS: How does Gen 18:18-21 show that Ishmaelites are excluded from Abraham's covenant?

The muslim's claim Jeurasalem as one of their holy sites, that is their only real interest in the land, if a different group of arabs had kicked the palestinians out of the area you wouldnt see the growling that still exsists today, thats a arab vs jew problem, that both cultures encourage to fester in that way.

The religious jews are wary of the children of Ishmael and the Gentiles both, the muslims have a fair bit of anti jew retoric in some of their scriptures.

It doesnt look like this is a probem that either side is actually trying to fix.

Originally posted by breakingdradles
How about who gives a $#!*??

Everyone's land used to be someone elses.

The Indians in America, Aborigines in Australia ect ect.

Why is it that Israel gets to claim land from Arabs when it was taken from them by Romans millenia ago??

Aren't they doing the exact same thing that was done to them?

BINGO! you win the prize. This is exactly what i have been thinking forever. I love that the jews have their own land back and the got it from the brits but seriously everyone fighting and dieing for dirt is STUPID!!!!! I guess though if someone was to come and try to take my home i would fight for it as well and seriously it wouldnt matter if it was an indian claiming right of return since his people were there first. Finders keepers lol. Anyways truth is yes it was once someone elses and it was someone elses before it was theres first. The jews led out of captivity went on to conquer many people most famous of which was the battle at jericho. They went into a land that they were told was theirs by god. Funny thing was why didnt god tell the canaanites to leave or else? I mean if god is directly communicating with the isrealites why not just avoid alot of bloodshed and just say hey look i am giving this to them so get out. I will give you something else. Nope i think instead i will have you all killed and your whole way of life destroyed. LOL ok seriously this is just simply taking what aint yours and now trying desperately to hold onto it. Well to the victor go the spoils i say. They won the West Bank, the Gaza strip and the Golan Heights in the 6 days war and they have held it ever since. There is always going to be fighting over whose dirt is whose. Putting a religous aspect to it just makes it worse.