Why are so many ATS'ers "anti-Environmentalist?"

Some of the brightest minds here are willing to look behind the curtain on so many problems...I've seen creative thinking and poking and prodding at the real sources of power that gives me hope for humanity...I've read brilliant exposes of corrupt power structures or the general dirty tricks that our gov't is up to...

...and yet, when the topic of the "fragile earth" comes up, its like you can almost see the mental gates slamming shut: "Global warming is a fraud; its been cooked up by Al Gore to sell movies dontcha know." COME ON HERE PEOPLE OUR PLANET IS DYING! ITS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE, every time you look at a row of plastic spinners on a used-car lot or shovel another mouthfull of "chow" that would have been classified as dogfood 20 years ago...Why can't more of the bright, perceptive people who see behind so many other lies and scams get untangled from the lie that "everythin's OK on the environmental front?"

[edit on 7/5/09 by silent thunder]

the earth is dying but carbon dioxide is necessary for oxygen production. the world isn't getting hotter, it's getting colder.

while its true that the weather is acting funny and our planet is probably dying, we have no idea why, and to assume that we have anything to do with it at such a cost that many environmentalists want us is pretty ludicrous.

there are many scientists that have said global warming is most likely real. there are also many scientists that have said global warming is most likely not real.

before we jump into hybrid cars and energy taxes (ahem, obama) or worrying about our carbon footprint, let's wait until there's a scientist with proof of global warming being caused by us.

reply to post by silent thunder

I so agree. I am amazed everyday and is still a thorn in my side.
In my threads I have provided oddles of information that
just gets promtly swept away.
That is one area I think we think there is a conspiracy
and there probably isnt. We are destroying our world, bottom line.
We dont want to have to tell our kids we screwed up
so we ignore it all or call others names.
Although there are many here that care, by and large the
corporate drone mentality wins out everytime. Sad really.
But its america and you know what I always say.(check sig)
Thanks for the thread, lord knows it would just get ignored if it was mine!

reply to post by silent thunder


Well I am anti-environmental Nazi. I am sick of those people that put some stupid bug or bird or plant above what is best for people.

I am also sick of the idea of cap and trade and politicians using the environment as yet another reason to raise taxes on all of us.

I think we can be responsible to the environment and that is important, but it must be balanced and we shouldnt be held hostage because of the lunatic fringe of environmentalism whines the loudest. Plus the EPA is a freaking joke.

Seems to me if we are going to compete in a global economy, either every one has to follow the same rules or we need to take the gloves off and do whatever we have to do to out compete the competition.

I don't think people are "anti-environment" I think there the "greenies" are so bent on pushing a radical agenda that isn't possible that the true message gets lost.

Sure we need to protect our environment, but at the same time you can't expect everybody to go back to living in mud huts and dieing of starvation because, of "global warming". The whole global warming argument is a ruse and has become politicized and the movement behind it treats it as a religion.

Man Made global warming debates usually end up with the greenies calling the one that don't believe the theory "deniers" and neanderthals and all kinds of other nasty names.

The fact is that the AGW crowd says the debate is over, but in reality there is no scientific evidence to back it up, in fact most of the evidence goes against the theory. But the greenies push and push and almost refuse to listen to reason.

There are some simple facts, the first one being we can not change the whole scope of power generation in 10 years, it isn't possible. Second one is, wind and solar power are only good for supplemental use and the technology is way expensive. A third one is that, the same people that want these technologies scream, "not in my back yard" when they want to put a wind farm or solar farm near them. A fourth one is that, it has to be a gradual transition from coal plants to viable energy sources like Nuclear and Geothermal, there are 100's of thousands of people that would be put out of work, for no other reason that this AGW crowd is saying we must act "now".

We do need to look out for the environment, but there are some things that need to happen first. Like actually allowing the building of Nuclear power plants. Energy storage technology has to have a major leap in advancement on a large scale before fossil fuel vehicles are phased out. We also have to advance socially, right now a lot of things could be built with robots.

There will always be a need for a mechanic, but as technology advances those roles will eventually be replaced by low level engineers. We have to do a lot more other stuff too.

It isn't that the people that don't believe in AGW are anti-environmentalist it is the fact that the AGW believes will not listen to reason, and are acting like everything must happen yesterday. You(meaning people) can not fear monger people into accepting a theory that has yet to be proved. So the true message gets lost behind all the senseless debate.

That is my take on it at least.

LOL, the answer is so so simple. Common Sense!

Nobody wants pollution and nobody wants global warming, global cooling, oil spills, toxic waste dumps etc.

The problem is what shady power hungry people (some so called environmentalist, politicians, & wall street paper traders) "so called solutions" to these problems.

Look, global warming caused be CO2, believe it or not it doesn't matter because cap and trade is one big money scam and a stealth tax on all of us and it will not take a single ton of Co2 out of the atmosphere.

Most of us realize this.... so we get sick and tired of using the "alarmist" material to push through a money making scam at our expense.

Here is another example... drilling for offshore oil and natural gas... why, why, why would we not drill it ourselves and let a small group of so called environmentalist control congress and shut it down.... so the CHINESE or Europeans can set up shop in the same location!

We have a natural solution with Algae oil but I guess this will never happen.

Most of us are sick to death of "fringe environmentalist" trying to dictate how we live while making an ungodly profit for themselves an not solving anything. If you solved the problem, you wouldn't need to pay them.

So, seeing what is going on it makes perfect sense for me NOT to like them to much or support their "cause" of making allot of money for themselves.

Because they are conservatives...

And in America there is no room for consensus when it come to politicized issues.
Its one way or no way...

By the time we all get on the same page it will be way too late,
hence my name. doing the doom, thats the way we roll here.
Anything to not have to pay our tab. Someone else prolly will.
At least we all like a clean planet! Whew!

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

Completely agree with your post. Star for you.
To the OP. Please don't assume everyone who is speaking out against AGW is an "anti environmentalist".

I am a keen surfer and snowboarder, and try to enjoy the great outdoors as much as possible. I hate the fact that our waterways get polluted. I hate the fact that there are plastic islands in the middle of the ocean. I hate the fact that over fertilization is wreaking havoc on the natural eco systems. I hate the fact that acres upon acres of ancient rainforest is getting cleared for farming or "bio-fuel"(it's not as green as some say it is) purposes. I hate the fact that our drinking water is contaminated with chemicals and pharmeceutical drugs.

But does this mean that I have to agree with everyone who raises a concern about the environment. NO!!!

If you really care for the environment, you need to see whether the so called solutions will actually benefit the environment. And the fact is, AGW is being used to make money and gain power, without having any real beneficial effects on the environment.

Take for example, a forester who wants to clear a large area of fores. He can pay (with the highly de-valued carbon credits) a hydroelectric dam, for the "right" to clear large areas of forest. Does this actually solve anything?? No. While the dam is making electricity without burning fossil fuels, great, but the large area of forest could arguably have more of a negative impact than the CO2 "saved".

That's not to mention the organizations that are going to profit. Such as Al Gore's carbon trading company, or the UN. You might be suprised to find that the UN has been hoping to enforce a pollution tax (carbon tax) for over 15 years. Not to stop climate change, but to fund reform into a world government structure. You can see for yourself at the thread I started here

I hope this helps alleviate some of your concerns regarding the so called 'anti environmentalists'.

Originally posted by infolurker


Here is another example... drilling for offshore oil and natural gas... why, why, why would we not drill it ourselves and let a small group of so called environmentalist control congress and shut it down.... so the CHINESE or Europeans can set up shop in the same location!

You used the word "WE"

who is we? You make it sound as if BIG OIL has a part in US sovereignty...
Is it not obvious after $6.00 gas that the "WE" could care half a crap about the USA or its citizens. I think believing that some how oil being produced near our shores will somehow save YOU money is idealistic at best. Do you know what country the US gets the majority of its oil from???????

NOW if we socialized petrol you might save a couple dimes but that entails an evil idea not worth saving $$$ on...

maybe the problem comes to the claim that global warming is the fault of human beings. this "global warming" has been occurring for a VERY long time (I am sure the ice age our planet went through a few million years ago did not disappear magically. Glaciers have been melting for a really long time).

It's true humans are destroying forest like crazy, but we are not destroying the planet's climate like the scientist who support global warming claim.

In addition, have we forgotten that Earth goes through several radical changes naturally? instead of freaking out and passing draconian laws such as carbon tax as a result of global warming, we should try to find ways to adapt to the changing environment.

Now it is true that we can cause severe damage at the city level, but claiming this is true at the planetary level is just ridiculous. There is a lack of evidence to believe that HUMANS are responsible for any and all changes our planet goes through.

OK Global warming is a theory not an event. It can't be real or not real. The theory states that due to the increased burning of fossil fuels the carbon in the atmosphere will rise causing a green house effect with a overall warming of the planet. And while the carbon in the atmosphere has indeed risen the temperature of the planet has not kept pace with the prediction pretty much proving that the theory is flawed. Not only that, but the warming on the planet is not global but more local. You take temperatures going back at least 100 year (an none the the charts that environmentalist show you go back that far) an you will see that this planet has ups and downs in temperature and we are outside the norm.

Organic farming is bad for the environment. On the small scale it is fine. But organic farming takes 3 times the land as conventional farming. Tons of rot and thus associated insects affect the area. The land becomes useless for anything but farming, the wildlife will take generations to move back in once the farms up and move.

We try to preserve an environment that is ever changing. Human folly makes us think that we know what is best for the planet and that is what ATSers are anti-environmentalist. Because as a whole environmentalists are the worst educated group of activists about their passion.

If the tree huggers were more like Teddy Roosevelt then life would be better. He was a big game hunter AND creator of national parks. Because are forefathers knew the one big truth about the world, you HAVE TO have things both ways. All or nothing thinking just causes destruction.

In David Foster Wallace's fictionalized book "Infinite Jest," the ruling political party was called the "Clean Living Party." It had cleverly managed to split the right and left by calling for moral cleanliness (a Right issue) along with Environmental cleanliness ( a left issue) and fiscal cleanliness (an issue abandoned by both parties). Apparently it was a smashing success. Although nothing in that book is meant to be taken straight-up seriously, I always thought some permutation of this idea could have legs...

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
I don't think people are "anti-environment" I think there the "greenies" are so bent on pushing a radical agenda that isn't possible that the true message gets lost.

Sure we need to protect our environment, but at the same time you can't expect everybody to go back to living in mud huts and dieing of starvation because, of "global warming". The whole global warming argument is a ruse and has become politicized and the movement behind it treats it as a religion.

Man Made global warming debates usually end up with the greenies calling the one that don't believe the theory "deniers" and neanderthals and all kinds of other nasty names.

The fact is that the AGW crowd says the debate is over, but in reality there is no scientific evidence to back it up, in fact most of the evidence goes against the theory. But the greenies push and push and almost refuse to listen to reason.

First off nobody wants huts and there is no mud involved as that is a massive cop out
on your behalf.

Second, why don't you tell us which planet is the hottest???

Third, which planet is closest to the sun?

Finally, why aren't the answers to the 2nd and 3rd question the same?

The terrestrial body green house effect was FIRST observed with Venus. It boggled the scientific community in the good old days and once spectral analysis came along it was determined that CO2 was off the charts in comparison to Earth and Mercury.

There is a whole PLANET that we can observe, but me thinks going against Ayn Rands idea's are more important. It is clear that such a simple radiation to thermal energy
equation is not good for BIG BUSINESS and MANY a PATRIOT seem to believe BIG BUSINESS is Americas shinning grace and birth right.

My father, rest him, was in charge of creating micro climate control for Reagans failed space station program. Funny enough the big problem with that was... drum roll.......... CO2, human emission from breathing.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Well I am anti-environmental Nazi. I am sick of those people that put some stupid bug or bird or plant above what is best for people.

I am also sick of the idea of cap and trade and politicians using the environment as yet another reason to raise taxes on all of us.

I think we can be responsible to the environment and that is important, but it must be balanced and we shouldnt be held hostage because of the lunatic fringe of environmentalism whines the loudest. Plus the EPA is a freaking joke.

Seems to me if we are going to compete in a global economy, either every one has to follow the same rules or we need to take the gloves off and do whatever we have to do to out compete the competition.

This is the kind of position I really find impossible to justify.

Stressing the importance of people - while being completely ignorant of the real impact we are having on our world.

The worst part of your post was where you say;

either every one has to follow the same rules or we need to take the gloves off and do whatever we have to do to out compete the competition.

While everyone has a self righteous and selfish approach then we are doomed. Until we can stand up as individuals are make sacrifices, showing leadership - then we are truly going to perpetuate the same selfish ideals. As soon as someone stands up and says 'enough is enough' and leads the way, then you may find that people are willing to follow - while you show your fist and make destruction a competition - then you will reap what you sow.

I don't subscribe to global warming - it is just a means of increasing taxes - even pollution itself isn't a big problem.

The hugest problems we face are the destruction of natural environments for our own use - the effect this has on the land and climate. This is RARELY even talked about, and even those who say they are enviro friendly don't seem to have a clue.;

The main threats to our environment are four fold.

1) Over fishing - many impacts, forced evolution for one
2) Deforestation - destruction of long term eco-systems
3) Agriculture - land degradation, effects on water tables and eco-systems
4) Genetically modified life forms - endless possibility for harm

While fishing and deforestation are sometimes talked about - most think that fishing is fairly much under control, which is a total lie. We have the capacity to aqua farm - and we should be doing a hell of a lot more of it. Fish which we net are actually getting smaller - because the nets allow small fish to slip through, so they breed in higher numbers. We boom and bust populations, causing their prey and predators to go through the same cycles - predators alter their hunting patterns, threatening other species with extinction. Over populated prey also push other species to extinction.

Old forests may never be regrown - or it may take hundreds if not thousands of years of care to replace them - along with the millions of species that rely on them.

Agriculture flattens millions upon millions of square miles - destroys the original inhabitants - causes water to flow in new ways, bringing salt to the surface - permanently destroying thousands of square miles of land. Wind erosion cuts away the top soil, allowing it to be washed into the sea - where it had taken millions of years to develop.

Genetically modified plants, god knows what happens when these get lose into nature through cross breeding - super plants that will choke out hundreds of natural species.

Pollution is somewhat of a problem - but it is tiny compared to the damage we are causing just by eating and wanting wood.

No-one wants to talk about the impact of agriculture - the damage is causes - after all, no-one wants to hear that there are just too many people - they want to cover their ears and cry out 'eugenicist!' 'anti-human!' 'killer of people!' rather than face the reality, and begin to make solid and reasonable plans to solve this most serious of all issues.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Amagnon]

reply to post by Curious and Concerned


Thanks.

I agree. The point about Roosevelt that got brought was a good one too. IF you go and kill off all the game and don't let them breed and get flourish then there will be no game left.

I think we could recycle more, not so much things in our homes, which would help, but steel and electronic parts. There are acres of landfills filled with nothing but electronics. Things like copper and gold, and the people guarding these landfills will kill you if you try to take anything from it because it is worth so much money.

The copper and gold that are in computers and such. But it also works with trees. I thought there was program that was started that for every tree that was cut down the loggers had to plant one in place of it. Maybe I am wrong on that.

I think the whole thing needs to turn away from an environmentalist attitude and change to a conservationist attitude. That is what Roosevelt was a conversationalist. Most hunters are.

If we are just going to throw our hands up in the air and act like human pigs until this whole planet is a stinking mudheap of rusted metal and busted concrete, than fine, we can do that...we'll go out with a whimper and as a species which never even made the 1-million-year mark, our passing will be little noted and not morned. Have no fear, earth itself will continue to trundle along for quite some time, and maybe in a few hunnert million years a species of intelligent centepedes or something will have evolved and be running the show.

If you simply don't care about the future of humanity on this planet, well, fine...but at least have the good grace to admit it, and to face what that means squarely. Because that's exactly where we're all headed. Now it may in fact be too late...maybe we can't find a fair system to distribute the carbon and the garbage and who gets the last scrapings of petrolium goo from what darnk, godless pit. If so, then, again, fine, let's throw up our hands and have a party because what else is there to do? But again, at least have the good grace and strength of character to admit the truth to yourself and to others. "Yes, the environment is going to hell. No, I don't really give a damn." If I heard one honest person put it like that I'd have 10,000 times as much respect for that person as I do for all those who jump through the little tortured ideological hoops just because deep down inside they think "this is a hippie issue and I'm not a hippie." That's a weak and ultimately wrong way to think.

Errr.. so it doesn't matter that the solutions are a money making scam that will do nothing to solve the problem?

I have to ask, does anyone here think "Cap & Trade" is not a scam? I gotta know.

On another subject... plastic containers (soda's, bottled water, packaging, etc.) I am with you. I would prefer glass like the old days.

Deforestation - I am with you

Cleaner Air - I am with you

Cleaner water - I am with you

But real solutions are needed, not money making scams. And worse, scams that directly tax all of us to make paper traders and politicians rich.

Algae Oil, A Real Solution

www.youtube.com...

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Garbage Plasma
www.youtube.com...

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www.youtube.com...

And many others that offer real solutions to energy needs and environmental impact. What ticks me off is we are playing money games with nothing to show for it except lining someone else's pockets.

Ironically, no I dont give a damn! Only for your kids' future, is all.
You really should too.
I have detached from this 'system of take' anyway.
I practice what I preach. You all poison yourselves if ya want.
I just have to breath your crappy air now, is all.
Was a good reason to give up smoking anyway! Good riddance.
But its all good, nothing going on here, keep moving.....

reply to post by infolurker


I am about all that too, but the AGW alarmist crowd has turned CO2 into this huge evil gas. It's been classified as a pollutant.

Until people back off of the "CO2 = bad" mentality we are never going to anywhere. One side is being logical about it all and the other side is being babies about it.

If we could all just agree that polluting the environment is bad and CO2 is necessary for us to exist then we can make some head way into this area. As long as people try to blame everything on CO2 then nothing is going to happen.