Forgiveness is (not always) Divine

To me, human nature, by nature, cannot forgive. So how can we truly forgive?

Human nature, the self within us, can never forgive injuries. The very thought of them means self (human nature) is in the foreground, then the injury, instead of appearing less, appears greater. So how do we truly forgive?

Someone said earlier that the bible doesn’t have much in this area on how to forgive. My answer is that the simple truth within the bible, is the only way, and is the only answer to TRULY forgive and be free indeed.

That is what I believe, that is what I have lived.

If you are not totally free, you have not forgiven. Can you love someone whom killed your daughter? That is freedom indeed!


If anyone wants to talk to me about forgiveness, please U2U me. I will always listen.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by DarksDeception]

[edit on 6-7-2009 by DarksDeception]

Well. You know what these women should do?

Change their religion. Any religion that tells them "you're doomed" because you can't forgive your rapist or your domestic abuser or sexual abuser is a religion that is WHACKED, STUPID and SENSELESS. It's just concerned with doing "as the Bible says in order to go to Heaven" instead of being concerned with who the individual people are and how they might feel.

NO SUCH THING as being doomed. Don't RUSH to forgive someone - when you're ready, you're ready.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


I have found it very easy to forgive. But to forget? Never have been able to. Am always once bitten and twice shy.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting



Do you find it easy to forgive?

Firstly I would like to point out that I am neither a believer nor non believer. Allthough I sure would like to believe but my scientific mind struggles with the bible storys and dont get me started on religeon. That said I think Jesus had a valueable message.

Sorry I digress a lil.

Forgiveness can be hard and I had a fairly bad childhood and my Mother and Father caused me alot of pain. I am 28 years old now and I think I can say I have forgiven them. My line of thinking is this...

I can hang onto the bad feelings towards them, maybe even hate but if I did eventually that sort of negativity would take me over and either turn me into the person i despise or completely brake me down to the point where I cant function.

Granted this is not always easy adn there are times where anger may surface to the top but as a whole I am trying to be positive in my life and move on. A relationship may be rebuilt or it may not but at least I can move on.

I am at a time in my life where I am about to get married (August =D) and where I am going havew a family. I want to try and be the best person I can and as positive as I can be so that I may bring happiness to my family and hopefully those around me. I am far from a perfect person but I am trying. I think forgiveness is a big part. If this world has any chance of becomeing a better place we have to all stand together. I think if we can do this and show compassion to other maybe we can drive out these horrible acts that happen to us all.

Another thing is would i be the man I am today without what happened. I wouldnt have alot of the good times I had maybe who knows

Just my opinion of course but this has helped me overcome my difficulties and helped me try and realise when other need my help, you kind of get attuned. Bad side is if you do something wrong you really do feel it but then again maybe thats not that bad really as being mindful of changes in yourself can help you travel the right path.

Sorry I waffled on a bit.

Peace

Easier said than done! I think forgiveness is impossible if you believe your existence in this world is real and this is all there is. I'm not saying I think it isn't real, I simply don't know. If you believe you retain consiousness beyond your existence here in this life then forgiveness is easy because the littleness and fear we all experience here is an illusion.

I have done things in my life that have harmed others and others have done things to harm me. I didn't set out to be evil and I didn't view my actions as such during the acts. It was only in hindsight and with the experience of being harmed that I became aware of the wrongness of my actions. We all are capable of dehumanizing one another and then doing horrible things. This World and the struggle to survive it is IMO the cause of all the evil we witness. In a World of scarcity love has no meaning and peace is impossible.

I'll end this by stating that I am currently studing a book called "A Course in Miracles." and I quote it occasionally in my posts. Forgiveness is the main subject of the course and I encourage everyone that is having a problem with forgiveness to take a look at this book.

Dan

Good thread. Good discussion.
Kinda goes along with the question I asked ...
Why is revenge bad?

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
I have found it very easy to forgive. But to forget? Never have been able to. Am always once bitten and twice shy.

Ditto. I can forgive but I don't forget. I've tried .. but I can't.
Perhaps it's evolutionary psychology at work ...
We remember because it's a 'survival of the most fit' kind of thing.

In the original post, a reference was made to the nazi's, the holocaust, and how sometimes it takes "generations" to accomplish forgiveness.

Another injustice which is requiring "generational forgiveness", is Slavery. We have for a while now, heard intermittently, African American citizens calling for an official apology for the enslavement of their ancesters.

Attitudes have varied, with some saying no one today has enslaved them, no one today is enslaved; consequently no apology is needed.

Perhaps it has been needed. They are trying to forgive, they wish to forgive.

Some have forgiven anyway...a rather one-sided forgiveness? Most of us would like to pretend it's old news, and forget it ever happened.

I have probably fit into that category in the past. I've changed my mind.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
African American citizens calling for an official apology for the enslavement of their ancesters.

But it would mean nothing. The people who enslaved and the people in Africa who sold the ancestors into slavery are all dead. THEY are the ones that need to apologize.

Having people who weren't slaves get 'apologies' from people who weren't slave holders or who didn't sell people into slavery .... that's not really an apology.

Express empathy or sympathy ... 'hey, sorry to hear that your ancestors were slaves ... sorry to hear that your black brethren in Africa sold their black brethren to slavers ... " .... sure. But don't the parties who were actually involved in the actual dirty deed have to be involved in the apology in order for it to be a real apology?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Hm. Haven't heard the thought about the Africans "selling" their relatives to the slave hunters. I think they were mostly "kidnapped".

It's the same with Native Americans. We stole their land. We apologized, I think. I came accross some material that indicated we promised them the government would pay for the college educations of their children, to help compensate, but then reniged on that.

I guess those groups themselves are the ones most qualified to determine whether an apology is needed, or whether it would even be helpful.

I'm wishing some African Americans and Native Americans would show up here. I'd love to hear their thoughts about this.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by ladyinwaiting]

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I guess those groups themselves are the ones most qualified to determine whether an apology is needed, or whether it would even be helpful.

Sure.

The problem is that if the US gov't 'apologizes' (and I'm still not sure if it's a real apology since all the parties involved are dead), then does that mean that the US gov't is admitting to wrong doing and is therefore financially liable? There are issues other than karmic ones to deal with.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Quite true. I guess I am thinking more about the healing aspect of it.
I quite agree about the financial liabilities. It's too late for that. (we are broke anyway....lol).

..the Karmic concerns are important for us all. But so far, I don't think it's taken us to a very peaceful place.

I so can relate to all the questions you have about forgiving. Those were my thoughts exactly when I started this quest.

When you have forgiven, you will just "know". That is the only way I can explain it. There is a certain peace that comes. It is incredibly freeing and it lessens future hurts.

I struggled for years trying to understand, trying to forgive.

The memory will still be there, and it will sometimes bring emotion with it, but it is different now. The emotion doesn't control me.

Personally, I feel that forgiving others is the first step to forgiving yourself. It helps to overcome the ego.

Also, in my experiences, forgiving, truly forgiving, with love! also helps to free the other person of their ego. I've seen incredible changes in people I've forgiven. They've seen incredible changes in themselves. I think it catches them off-guard and gives them a wake up call. Many don't want to be forgiven, and guess what? That is not something they can control.

It takes time. It takes much effort and a great search for understanding.

The act of "not forgiving" caused guilt in the group of women with whom I spoke. They felt compelled to forgive, due to religious beliefs.

I resourced the Bible, and religious leaders, and found this:

Luke Ch. 17, verses 3 and 4.

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to the thee, saying I repent; thou shalt forgive him."

So it is saying that we forgive when asked to forgive...but again

Easier Said Than Done

Billy Graham has to say:

"In the same way, if this individual has broken the law, then he must face the consequences for his actions. He also should be discouraged from doing this in the future - but if he is simply let off the hook, that may not happen. Instead, he may commit this crime again and again until he is finally brought to justice."

He goes on to say that although God forgives us, this does not mean we will not have to face the consequences of our actions.

But the Luke verse states "thou shalt forgive him".

Therein lies the dilemma.

Interesting thread.. and something I have thought about before.

But why do we have to forgive, finding peace within yourself is one thing and something I agree with. But forgiveness towards others...why?

Why forgive someone for their wrong doing, their actions, their choice (and we all have choices in life) their decision to commit a criminal act.. rape, murder, abuse, etc.

Sorry, but if I was faced with these situations then I wouldnt be able to forgive.

I find the religious argument to forgive a weak argument, is there any other reason to forgive someone..?

I was thinking about this when i read book 8.2 of the ringing cedars by Vladimir Megre.Where he points out that the state of a persons mind always starts in the mothers womb and the point of conception. One such example being that there were five men who were woman killers,whereabouts all their mothers were trying to abort them while the mother was pregnant. The baby can feel the mothers thoughts and how she tried to abort them. So the men grew up hating woman and killed them in the most horrific ways. By all means not all peoples state of mind starts from conception but it starts somewhere.
This is definately a hard subject to cover and requires alot of contemplation,experience and most probably wisdom.
To understand the imperfect world is to understand a perfect world. A thought form that dissects both polarities into the whole.
So most would say it starts with love, by building the love inside you and erasing the past so that only what lies ahead is the main direction you want to go.
Now to erase the past(not to forget but to move forward) is a difficult task and requires alot of elbow grease(just kidding).
To forgive is to grow in Love. Though they are words to symbolise thoughts, feelings and actions you will find that Love always is above all others feelings.
How do you grow into love and love is up to you. It shouldnt require education but that it does require education to know Love is an example of the direction we have headed into.


[edit on 6-7-2009 by Applesandoranges]

I personally believe completely forgiveness is entirely possible.

Years ago my wife's brother was down on his luck and we allowed him to move in with us. Things went downhill from there and her brother literally evicted us out of our own house and we had to go the legal route just to get it back. This is mainly due to "landlord / tenant law" and apparently since we allowed him to live there for x number of weeks he was entitled to 30-90 days of eviction notice, remedy time, etc. Which was utterly ridiculous. But on to the story.

He went crazy, he was literally bringing prostitutes to the house, drug dealers, and would trash the place. He would eat food and hide the remains under his bed or couches in the house and you wouldn't know until an ungodly rotten scent filled the room and you'd go to find a plate of foods being consumed by maggots. He then became verbally violent when we asked him to clean up after himself and attempted to set boundaries as a condition of living in our home. One night he took it too far and threw my wife against a wall, and we kicked him out.

We schedule a time for him to pick up his things but he never showed up. Suddenly we were being 'sued' by him saying we unlawfully evicted him and we were ordered to let him move back into OUR HOUSE. Even though we were not charging him rent, etc. We had to 'give him time' to move his things and so he could find another place, etc. Regardless of his violence or abuses. He apparently knew how to game the system.

The wife and I ended up staying with relatives for nearly 3 months until he was finally forced to move by the Sheriff. After that it got even worse, our house was broken into a dozen or so times, all our blankets, clothing, dishes, etc were burned or broken. all the locks on all the windows and doors were purposely broke, making it difficult to secure the property. We even had our cable and telephone wires cut on several occasions. He would even leave mocking messages on the answering machine. Ironically, law enforcement took complaints and reports but NEVER did anything about it.

It escalated to the point where he gutted our pet cat in our livin groom, throwing the entrails all over the walls, blood, etc. He even attempted to run my wife and I off the road and still another time he threw roofing tacks all over oru driveway so that our tires all had to be replaced.

Even with all that, a few years later, we were both able to forgive him and move on with our lives. We realized that he was literally crazy, with mental problems and needed psychological/medical help but he doesn't realize it. He is also psychotic and a sociopath and it is something that is deeply engrained into who he is. We realized he couldn't help it, he was crazy and that is how it would be.

We have sinced moved on with our lives, minimizing any interactions with him. But we sincerely hold no ill-will against him. I do admit that at the time we both hated him and spoke curses upon him multiple time per day. But now we honestly don't even remember him or realize he exists unless we really think about it. We avoid him not because we hate him, but because we have learned that if you play with fire you are going to get burned.

There was one time a few years after that where he needed help with signing up for college and needed help fixing his laptop. He didn't ask me, but I offered to help and I did. It actually changed his outlook on life and since then he has been a pleasant human being, of course it may just be his psychotic/sociopathic ways.

Either way, forgiveness is possible, but it may take years and honestly putting yourself into that other person's shoes before you are able to see how he views the world, his struggles, his pain.

reply to post by DJM8507


Endless struggles with someone you were trying to help. Either mentally ill on drugs, or both.

You endured so much. Maybe in this case, forgiveness is divine!

If you want to see true forgiveness, look at the Amish families whose children were gunned down by that milkman at school last year. I read that they not only said they forgave the shooter (who turned the gun on himself), they also went to his funeral and helped his family, who were horrified by what he'd done, get over their shock and trauma. Absolutely admirable... I don't know if I could do it.

However, I did manage to forgive big-time several times in my life... and I totally agree with some of the previous posters who said that it's really more for you than for the one forgiven. It does NOT mean you have to tell them you forgive them... you never even have to talk to them again. It does NOT mean you have be friends with them and invite them over for coffee... you might well never lay eyes on that person again, and that's fine. Forgiveness does not mean contact.

Quite often, someone who seems to take the "high road" and loudly proclaims that he forgives this or that person -- especially to their face and maybe in the presence of witnesses -- does nothing but tell that person, "You're an a**hole, and I'm morally superior to you." It's really just another way to get back at his "abuser" and feed his petty hunger for revenge. Beware people who feel the need to shout from the rooftops that they've forgiven someone.

Real forgiveness is a very private thing. It's for YOU, to get that nagging and hurtful rage and resentment out of your system, which can make you emotionally and physically sick over time. If you do it right, you can see true miracles.

I'll tell you a true story.

About 12 years ago, I met a man on the Internet and -- pretty naive and love-starved as I was -- fell in love via emails and phone calls. I lived in Germany back then, and he lived in the U.S., which was an extra draw, since I wanted nothing more than move to America. I guess I had it in the back of my mind that maybe, just maybe he'd marry me and I'd have a free ticket to U.S. immigration.

Anyway, the exchanges got steamier and steamier, until we finally agreed that I would spend a 5-week vacation at his house in AZ so we could get to know each other. Imagine my horror when he picked me up at the airport and I not only didn't find him attractive at all, all the sizzling we had over the Internet and phone popped like a bubble. To be entirely honest, I found him disgusting, and that he eyed me like a predator would look at a particular yummy morsel, literally licking his lips, didn't help any.

Of course I should have turned on my heels right there and then... but I didn't. I guess I still had my America dream in mind and also didn't want to make any waves. So I went with him to his place and stayed there, even had sex with him... and he was insatiable, in fact, I now believe that he was a sex addict. He also insisted that we didn't use any protection, and I stupidly agreed.

To make a long story short, after about a week of almost nonstop sex, I found my genital area covered with itching blisters. After another two days, my condition was so bad that I had to stay in bed, and I assure you, I have never had such pain in my entire life. Sometimes it got so bad, I was screaming and praying to the Great Spirit to please let me die. After nearly a week of agony, my lover finally took me to a doctor, who said this was the worst herpes outbreak he'd ever seen. You can imagine how mad I was. He knew he had herpes and still insisted we didn't use condoms!

As if that hadn't been enough, my lover also turned out to be a thoroughly unpleasant individual. He was extremely controlling and jealous and stingy to boot. Since I couldn't leave the bed, he had to buy bland foods (I could only eat baby carrots and grapes, everything else made the pain worse) and medicine for me... and made ME pay for them!!! I hated his guts, and I swore as soon as I was back in shape, I'd leave that house and never see him again.

Even when I was back in Germany, I would still get herpes outbreaks every few months... not as horrific anymore, but still pretty bad. I hated the guy with every fiber of my heart. But then I did get the chance to move to the U.S. -- and to the small town where he lived. At first I tried to avoid him, but then I realized there was no way we wouldn't run into each other at the few local hangouts, so I decided to forgive him. Easier said than done, of course.

One night, lying in bed, I tried to do an honest recap of our "relationship," acknowledging my part in what had gone wrong. As I said before, I basically prostituted myself even though I didn't even like the guy, just because I was hoping to get something out of it. Hadn't I acted so corrupt, he'd never been able to hurt me. Aside from that, I knew that he had had a horrible childhood, and I could see how that had turned him into the person he was. But it still wasn't enough; I couldn't bring myself to feel true compassion.

So I prayed to the Creator and my angels. I said, "I want to forgive this man, but I cannot do it on my own; there's just too much pain and resentment. Please, Spirit, will you take that burden from me and help me forgive?" This really came from the bottom of my heart, so my advice is, this cannot just be lip service.

The next morning I woke up and felt an incredible inner peace, and I knew I had forgiven my ex-lover. I could put that to the test soon after, when I met him while I was going out, and I was able to have a nice little chat with him. He asked me for closer contact, going out, having dinner, but I politely declined.

And here's the miraculous thing: Ever since that night, when I asked Spirit to help me forgive, I have NEVER had a herpes outbreak again... and that was about 12 years ago!

It's really like a spiritual exercise that also has a regenerating effect on your body and psyche... I can only recommend it.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by sylvie]

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Easier Said Than Done

Billy Graham has to say:

"In the same way, if this individual has broken the law, then he must face the consequences for his actions. He also should be discouraged from doing this in the future - but if he is simply let off the hook, that may not happen. Instead, he may commit this crime again and again until he is finally brought to justice."

He goes on to say that although God forgives us, this does not mean we will not have to face the consequences of our actions.

But the Luke verse states "thou shalt forgive him".

Therein lies the dilemma.

I don't believe forgiving has anything to do with having to own up to one's actions. Personal accountabilty is a big pet-peeve with me. There is not enough of it. There is a huge diffence between forgiveness and "overlooking" something, letting something slide. Forgiveness doesn't mean we pretend it didn't happen.
And depending on the circumstances/person that needs forgiveness, just because you have forgiven doesn't mean you must keep that person in your life. If someone is toxic why keep in contact with them? That is respecting yourself.