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Alien Debate Anyone???

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posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 05:32 PM
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just a random quistion to all the ATS'ers on alien life and who do/and or dont believe......... id like to start this in debate form and ask (as iam new) and me being relitively new to not only this site but only doing "research" on general terms such as crop circles,ufos,personal experiences....no i do NOT believe everything i see or hear....BUT i do tend to go with my gut feeling. That said i would like to hear some opinions,and/or personal experiences on these matters. I feel it is really important for the "non believers" out there to know that they as in our human form if you will are not the only ones in the tiny piece of dust we call earth. So....with that said id really like to hear the above topics.


oh and if anyone on here know how to put a signature on my acct pls u2u me

Thanks and lets get started shall we???




posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by soldier8828
 


Sure I will, so how do you wish to start?

I am sending you a u2u on how to work with sigs.

Also I am a skeptic of aliens.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 05:52 PM
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I believe there is just the possibility i wouldnt be surprised if they were real though



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by TheMythLives
 


well lets start where i first started getting interested with all this....one name...alex collier......another name im really interested with is nassim haramein...i think thats how you spell his name.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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Well straight away I can say that if people think we are the only life forms in this Universe are very close minded indeed.

Have Aliens visited us? well now thats open to debate.

Why would we on terra, be the most advanced beings and civilisation in the whole universe?


its simply mad to think we are the only ones in a certain age ( digital age) through the universe.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by soldier8828
 


Interesting. I personally just do not believe in them, here are some facts that I have issues with.

1) The Drake Equation
2) The Probability of Life
3) Different types of evolved Life Forms

Its only two, because I could list more, but I am half asleep and half awake. But I still have issues. They seem like solid evidence, for instance the Drake Equation states:

Well first of all:

The equation is,

N = ( R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc) x L


Each part of the equation comprised either a number or a factor and during the conference the team of scientists discussed each term in detail and made their best estimate of its value. The individual terms were then placed within the Drake equation to evaluate the number, N, of civilisations with whom we might communicate:...............

For example, let us suppose that such a civilisation comes into being about every 10,000 years. If such civilisations attempt to make contact with others for 1,000,000 years on average, then we would expect there to be around 100 in our galaxy from whom we might possibly detect signals.

How accurate is the current estimate of N?

The problem is that while some of the factors involved in the evaluation of Rcc are reasonably well known, we can only make educated guesses for others. Neither do we have any real idea of the typical value for L (More on L), so our final estimate for N is not expected to be accurate.

In fact it has been said that the Drake Equation is a way of encapsulating a lot of ignorance in a small space! Evaluations of N in the early days of SETI were probably on the optimistic side with values of up to 1,000,000 considered possible.

Some now say that intelligent civilisations will arise only rarely and thus that we might be the only one existing in our Galaxy at the present time. The true answer will no doubt lie somewhere in between and the SETI projects could perhaps be regarded as an experimental way of finding the answer of how often advanced civilisations arise.


LINK

A lot of people base there belief on this equation yet, according to recent findings:


The integers that are plugged into this equation are often subject to wide interpretation and can differ significantly from scientist to scientist. Even the slightest change can result in vastly different answers. Part of the problem is that our understanding of cosmology and astrobiology is rapidly changing and there is often very little consensus among specialists as to what the variables might be.


So if there is not a general understanding between scientist, how is this at any level or measure accurate. It just does not make sense.


Another major problem of the Drake Equation is that it does not account for two rather important variables: cosmological developmental phases and time


Again, since the equation does not seem to grow with science, rather its stuck in the past, has many different meanings and understandings between scientists. Time is highly important to any study, because everything changes with time and the cosmos certainly change over the spand of a few years. If anything the Drake equation is now a bust and a failed attempt to prove that life is on other planets or in other galaxies.
The Drake Equation Bust

And as I stated before the probability of Life is also used. Alien supporters often state that since we are here that means other life forms must be somewhere else as well. I mean its only logic correct? Well, when we disect what it takes for life to be here I come to this issue:

The simpliest form of life, scientist all agree, that was some sort of basic cell, most likely baterium, without a nucleus. But even the most basic cell needs to have the major components to function, DNA Molecules and amino acids. The DNA holds the nucleotides and the Amino Acids are the proteins. So if the first cell of life is going to start on another planet, what are the odds of this happening? Lets examine some more of what cells need to live and there structure:

- Chirality for example- Nucleotides in the DNA, base pairs must be the same orientation- left handed or right handed. All the amino acids in the DNA chain must be of the same orientaion, or it simply does not work. Therefore, if the chirality is not correct, the cell does not even start to function and does not even come into existence.

The very simplest bacteria that science can imagine will have approximatly: 100,000 nucleotides (however, science has never seen it before, but thats what they feel it will need to at least live). However, the smallest bacteria that science has seen and knows of is 500,000. And 10,000 amino acids, is the smallest amino acid that science knows of.

So simply put the cell would need a minimum of 100,000 nucleotides.
10,000 amino acids.
Add them up and we get 110,000. Now we have a 50% chance that the cell starts and a 50% chance that it does not. What are the odds? (using simple statistics 0.5x0.5
110,000 times) 0.5 to the power of 110,000 in base 10 equals the following: 1 in 10 to the power of 33,113. And the odds come out to 10 to the power of 33,113 for the odds of a Random Chirality Probability. A huge impossibility. Let me put this in some sort of perspective.

1 in 10 to the power of 33,113 is the same as winning 4700 state
lotteries in a row with only one ticket for each!

Another problem is the life specific amino acids- odds of this happening by chance- 10 to the power of 6,021. Correct Amino Acids in the right place one chance in 10 to the power of 13,010. Correct Genetic material placement: 1 chance in 10 to the power of 60,155.

So lets review:

1) Chirality= 10 to the power of 33,113
2) Life Specific Amino Acids= 10 to the power of 6,021
3) Correct Amino ACid placement= 10 to the power of 13,010
4) Correct Genetic Material= 10 to the power of 60,155
5) And most importantly, gene placement, correct gene placement= 10 to the power of 528

Add it up it comes to the total of 10 to the power of 112,827 and worst of all its 1 out 10 to the 112,827. 1 !!!!


1 in 10 to the power of 112,827 is the same as winning 16,119 state lotteries in a row with only one winning ticket.

Check out this probability.

This is like taking any selected electron. And I mean ANY, from the Universe, person, star, planets, galaxies, everyhing and anything. Now if you were to somehow lay that out on a table and have all those electrons just laid out before you all mixed up and such. You can choose one electron and have it hidden anywhere on the table. You have a better chance of picking that one electron than life starting on its own or life being on another planet. But wait its not over yet!

You have a better chance at picking that one electron 1,376 time in a ROW! And remember that is just for one cell, and all of this needs to be correct, just to get one dead cell.

And then I often here that Life can arise through different properties of life. I also have a problem with this.

For instance. Mirror based life, Arcenic Life, and Silicon life.

Now mirror based life is just like us, accept opposite amino acids. Thats easy to understand and put forth, however, that life would need similar conditions that we have on earth.

The only stumbling block to the idea is that arsenic-based DNA tends to break down quickly. "You don't want to build your DNA out of a compound with a half-life in the order of a couple of minutes," points out Steve Benner of the Foundation For Applied Molecular Evolution in Gainesville, Florida. Benner is a brilliant man. Highly intelligent. However, he points out that it could be a good thing in extreme cold, where chemical reactions move very slowly.

But how much cold can sustain life?


However, silicon is less abundant in the universe and its structures are much less stable and much more reactive than carbon's, particularly in the presence of oxygen where it produces a solid

LINK

Less abundent? Less stable? And much more reactive and oxygen is needed for ALL life, therefore if the silicon theory means solidifying the host, death is almost certain.

Back to the cold temperatures needed for the 2 life theories:


If water existed (on mars), it would have been locked up as ice. As a result, the formation and evolution of life forms would have been exceedingly difficult.

LINKY

But if any of the life existed with these type of genetic and life forms a huge problem occurs to the Contact scenario. A big problem:

If these life forms were to come to earth, simply put, they would DIE. Arcenic needs Extreme cold to even be considered, but not to cold as to kill the life forms. Silicon needs so many things that it is almost impossible to think that they would even be alive.

I guess, I just do not see the possibility of them being around.... Let me know what you think


Also I have not heard of collier or nassim, I will have to look into those folks. Is their a specific website or book? Let me know!



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:03 PM
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Holy crap. The evidence is almost undeniable. My favourite is Edgar Mitchell, heck if you dont believe a astronaut who walked on the moon who will you believe?



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by TheMythLives
 


Wait so you think we are the only life in the entire universe!!? If there is life here im sure there is life out there.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by Sparkey76
 


i dont think i could agree with you more... the only thing that ive personly seen that makes me think there is undeniably seomthing going on that cant be explained is when i was really little i remember my mom having a conversation with someone and me trying to get her attn....cuz i had seen "something" i dont know what it was but it was the size of a star and moving around at a speed that wasnt possible and darting around really really quickly stopped and just took off and disapeared.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by TheMythLives
 


We have so little understanding of the universe, an alien race billions of years ahead of us could easily solve these problems. They said men would die if they went to a certain altitude. Well you can see what i mean.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by soldier8828..another name im really interested with is nassim haramein...i think thats how you spell his name.


Oppsy ... exiting stage left...



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by TheMythLives
 


i definately have a problem with that equation as well. i dont like the fact that scientists are deeming probalbilities to life for anything. if you simply take the fact that a set of pyrimids are in EXACT alignment of our solar system, these set of pyramids in I believe both egypt and south america way before technology was introduced and even that is debatable that alone raises quistion. Along with and i will find the link for you another civilization that has stones that are cut with lasers percission???? We as a race cant even do this today!!!



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:24 PM
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Aliens exist, thats that. The sooner people agree the better.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:36 PM
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I believe extraterrestrials exist, too.

I always thought it was just arrogant to assume we are totally alone in the entire universe, as if everything exists but is all mechanical and stupid except for us. Worse than arrogant, it's a very stupid idea. There is nothing special about our planet. There are millions/trillions/etc. of them, and there is so much time for so many possibilities, especially when life seems to thrive defying entropy and increasing its energy and intelligence over time. Even the simplest single-celled life, when it appears, it just starts making copies of itself ad infinitum, until the environment (entropy) overcomes it, if that ever happens.

[edit on 4-7-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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I think aliens exist and that there may be some way smarter than us, but I dont beleve that thousands of them hang out around earth just to probe us every chance they get.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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why do people think that aliens don't exist?

Another question:

Why do people think that aliens can't come to our planet?

[edit on 4-7-2009 by danielsil18]



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by soldier8828
 


I definately think that is very cool. How the pyramids appear to match Orions belt. But I have issues with that also, all the alginments match only a few on the belt and not the entire constellation. I would think that they would use everyone. And also what about the destroyed pyramids? They do not match with anything they are just their.

I personally think the anicents were way more advanced then us, even with technology of today. I think they outnumbered us and were smarter then us.

But I agree with you that the egyptians did some amazing feats back in the day.


[edit on Jul 4th 2009 by TheMythLives]



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by soldier8828
 


Here are some good, well researched and presented threads for you to get started with


The 1952 Tremonton, Utah UFO Fleet

The Chile-Whitted Incident: Eastern Airlines Flight 576 and The "Rocket Ship"

The Gorman UFO Dogfight

The Mantell UFO Incident

The Coyne incident, Mansfield, Ohio ,1973

The strange story of JAL 1628

The Height 611 UFO Crash

Those are only a few of the more recent ones that have HEAVY documentation behind them. You will soon find ATS is a near infinite repository of the best UFO information.


EDIT to add: WELCOME TO ATS!

[edit on 7/4/2009 by jkrog08]



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by danielsil18
 


Check out my posts a little ways above. I like to think that I am fairly intelligent..lol.. so I poured in my best evidence in the above.



posted on Jul, 4 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by danielsil18
why do people think that aliens don't exist?

Another question:

Why do people think that aliens can't come to our planet?

[edit on 4-7-2009 by danielsil18]


Because they are afraid to change their paradigm.



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