The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S., page 6

reply to post by _Phoenix_

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Phoenix, I'd have been glad to stay off here, except one turdnugget accused me of being delusional.

Now most times, I'm a fairly tolerant person - not really, but that part sounds good, so please excuse that minor falsehood on my part - I don't mind if someone is simply misinformed. But when someone makes vague generalities based on erroneous information, then that selective stupidity just gets me sideways.

Personally, I don't give a tinker's damn what the gun control laws are in other nations, and they can shake their own willies.

But don't go making up stuff about the US when you have your information wrong.

And this name-calling? I don't mind insults - just don't anyone complain when you get tit for tat.

Always good to hear from you Phoenix. Hope all is well?

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
reply to post by nenothtu

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Well I don't know, if you consider school kids stabbing each other, gangster wannabes everywhere starting trouble, people violently beating the crap out of people just for their phones, groups of kids beating someone to death for no reason except for fun. 11 year old girls, 12 year old boys joining in on beating the crap out of someone for "fun", if you consider that not violent, well ok.

Well, that DOES sound somewhat violent. For all these fellows here who want to engage such behavior with fisticuffs, by the rules, I wish them all the luck in the world.

They're gonna need it.

reply to post by Bringer

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Your off topic post really has no bearing here but FYI:

I have LOTS of non-hybrid seeds in deep freeze and I grow them in my solar powered, flood and drain hydroponic greenhouse.

reply to post by nenothtu

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I think it's really all about mentality more than statistics etc.

I guess from what I've seen from detroit that the mentality of a lot of youth in the uk is not as bad as detriot.

But the mentality of most places in the USA is not like detroit of course.

And I think that's the problem in the UK, there is a more widespread of this mentality around the country, the gangster wannabe, no compassion mentality.

Now of course there are a lot of sweet nice kids around, but there's also a growing trend of this gangster wannabe mentality, which kids feel like they have to join in on it, they have to act like a stupid gangster wannabe because some are afraid if they don't.

They carry knifes around, because of fear. They get involved in violent crimes because of peer pressure from their so called friends, but they do not show fear or opinions, the fear makes them catch on to the trend, go along with it, show no compassion, show no disagreement.

If you be nice, say something intelligent, have any compassion, then to them your pathetic, they would call you names or attack you etc

They would even greet each other with violence or name calling haha.
Basically it's good to be bad mentality or your a loser.

The problem in the UK is not how violent it is, but the main problem is this rising mentality among youths AND adults. Of course this trends popularity depends on the areas.
Other areas might have more problem with drunken groups after a night out causing trouble lol.


[edit on 5-7-2009 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by dooper

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Ah yes I don't blame you, I've been reading some ridiculous comment on youtube and other sites by British people towards Americans and the other way around, like they want a reaction out of people, makes british people look stupid and ignorant.

I'm good, thanks for asking

[edit on 5-7-2009 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by Laurauk

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Exactly. Start allowing people to have handguns over there and you will see murders, violent assaults and robberies skyrocket. God, what has happened to the England, the UK used to be a civilized place.

Originally posted by secretagent woooman
reply to post by Laurauk

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Exactly. Start allowing people to have handguns over there and you will see murders, violent assaults and robberies skyrocket. God, what has happened to the England, the UK used to be a civilized place.

It is a civilized place, there are many great places to visit, fun, peaceful places, You walk a mile in london and your in a totally different place with different atmosphere, that's the great thing about london, all the parts from the whole world is there, all brought together into one place! the good and the bad, the variety of it all, even accents change a few miles apart, it's amazing, the mix of culture, the arts, the music, foods, people.

It's "some" people that are not civilized one single bit that spoils is for "some" of us, depending where they live or visit, they can make what appears yesterday to be a nice neighbourhood into what today would be a ghetto looking dark crappy place. Like a disease that spreads haha.




[edit on 5-7-2009 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by pavil

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Remember the article mentioned "affray" as a violent crime? Conjures up images of riotous behaviour, no? You can get arrested for affray by merely being in a group of people & swearing aggressively @someone. Similarly, doing the same on your own is "Threatening Behaviour" under the Public Order Act 1986. I got done for it after intervening to stop riot police from continuing to beat a young lad on the ground. I wasn't aggressive, nor did I swear, but I'm a violent statistic... f**king madness! I'd have probably got an ASBO too but we didn't have them back then.
The thing with the Public Order Act is that there doesn't have to be anyone around to be offended or threatened by your behaviour. It specifically states @ the beginning that if a copper considers your behaviour would threaten or offend someone, you're guilty. It's a catch all offence that basically lets them lock you up pretty much for whatever they like but you usually only get a fine. Stuff like that is being used regularly to harass teenagers for hanging around the streets; each 1 a new violent statistic.
It's true that some youths are mental, but most are just bored kids. It's just that MSM has people so scared of the few nutters that they're happy to see coppers shift them. Are we surprised when teenagers tell them to f**k off & die, getting arrested in the process? When I was a kid, it was a rite of passage.
That's not to say we dont have a rising problem with real violence tho... more later lol!

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by nenothtu

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Ah nenothtu, we meet again... Lol!

Good to see you! A worthy opponent is often the mark of a man, and the delight of a warrior. I thank you for doing me the honor.

I'll get onto UK violence shortly, but gun ownership... It's a self-fulfilling thing. You need them because the criminals have them. Where did they get them? They either bought them legally before they were criminals, bought them illegally or stole them. If people didn't have them, neither would criminals.

That's sometimes so, when people store them inadequately, but not always so. A couple of years ago, port authorities managed to stumble across 2000 Type 56 assault rifles (Chinese variant of the AK47, in full auto) together with 4000 magazines for same, bound for street gangs in Los Angeles. I can't help but wonder how many other weapons have arrived here in the same way, and not been caught.

I know that some of the gangsatas in my neighborhood have full auto playthings (I've heard them firing in the dead of night, and there's no mistaking the sound of an Uzi, or a Mac10 - the Mac10 sounds like a REALLY loud zipper, due to the rate of fire). Now I know some folks who have legal full-auto weaponry here, and I can tell you that stuff is guarded as well as Fort Knox - I'm talking steel and concrete blast doors like bank vaults have. It's too expensive to guard lightly. Those sub guns had to come from somewhere, and it wasn't legitimate owners, so I'd have to contend that point somewhat.

I wonder how many people have experienced similar attempted burglaries? I'll bet most responsible gun owners keep them shut away, especially if they have kids. So they dont have the thing handy when they might need it anyway. Without your dogs to keep the burglars occupied, they might easily have caught you sitting on ATS, or running for your shootin iron.

Well sir, that was the holdup, and the dogs served their purpose. I keep that shotgun upstairs for a reason. The stairs are a naturally defensible choke point. Can't but one man at a time attempt to get to me while I'm up there assembling my shooting iron, and he has to contend with my son (who occupies the entire upstairs) dropping bricks on his head whilst the dogs gnaw on his other end. Due to my background, my son has been trained from an early age in reaction drill for such events, and the training has now paid off. The shotgun itself is stored in a hidden cubby, unloaded and with a bolt-blocking lock on it, with the only key in my pocket at all times. My son was fairly amazed, and asked me how I got it ready in total darkness, that fast. These are things I practice.

But, to concede the point somewhat, I have to admit that there are some schmoes here who buy a handgun, never learn about it, and toss it in a nightstand drawer to gather dust, and yes, occaisionally they get into circulation in the wrong hands. But not as frequently as claimed, and certainly not enough to account for all the firepower out there.

But what if you weren't in? That'd be another illegal gun in circulation...

Nope. The bolt-block on the shotgun is hardened steel. They'd have to destroy the receiver to get it off without the key, effectively rendering the gun inoperable. In the case of my AK74 (the newer Russian variant, not the AK47 or AKM), I pull the bolt out of it whenever I leave the house, so stealing that wouldn't do them any good, except to identify the perpetrator's headless body if he tried to fire it. Being the newer Russian gun, the bolt is mighty nigh unavailable here now, as is the barrel assembly. replacements can't be expected.

I can respect the idea that an armed populace is in a position to overthrow tyranny. It sounds logical. But you know, I wonder. No populace revolts until they are jointly & severally so p!ssed off that they've got little to lose, @which point weight of numbers seems to have been the deciding factor, with military often standing down or joining the revolution.

I have to agree there to, while adding the fact that ready firearms would make the job much more efficient for the citizenry, as opposed to, say, rocks, sticks, and broken bottles.

Is it possible that owning guns so divides a people, each in fear of folks from other neighbourhoods that they dont trust each other to stand together if TSHTF? Might this not actually cause people to put up with more sh!t before doing something about it?

Since you all don't have a "gun culture" over there, I can understand this misconception. Invariably, us "gun fanatics" who are not in the criminal element are a friendly bunch towards one another. Rather than 'fear' each other, it's quite the opposite. We're drawn towards one another, in common interest, and of course there's the old saw about an ARMED culture being a POLITE culture. There's a lot to be said for not pissing off an armed man. Americans are known here, if not in the rest of the world, for putting up with guff from the government to a fault, rather than storming the capitol. It's even written in to our Declaration of Independence. Yeah, we put up with a lot, but it's not because of the guns.

What would an armed revolt do anyway, but simply replace one armed tyranny with another? That seems to have been the model so far...

In smaller. third world countries, that seems to indeed be the case, but there are exceptions. The first American Revolution would be one. The latest Russian Revolution would be another. It's a possibility, but not a given, and I'm pretty sure that there are folks around here who would insure against that outcome. The revolution brewing here now is centered around the restoration of our Constitution, which has taken a severe beating in the past 19 or 20 years, and that outcome would effectively insure against such an eventuality.

Please note that's not a slight against Mr Obama, as he's nothing more than the latest installment in a line of tyrants, including two Bushes and a Clinton. This crosses "party" lines, has been building up steam for a while, and must eventually come to a head if the fine folks in Washington DC don't start paying attention to what's their constituents are saying to them.

What's happening over there, what's this violence I hear about you're running into there, and does it compare in any way to our situation here?



[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
reply to post by nenothtu

---

I think it's really all about mentality more than statistics etc.

I guess from what I've seen from detroit that the mentality of a lot of youth in the uk is not as bad as detriot.

But the mentality of most places in the USA is not like detroit of course.

And I think that's the problem in the UK, there is a more widespread of this mentality around the country, the gangster wannabe, no compassion mentality.

Now of course there are a lot of sweet nice kids around, but there's also a growing trend of this gangster wannabe mentality, which kids feel like they have to join in on it, they have to act like a stupid gangster wannabe because some are afraid if they don't.

They carry knifes around, because of fear. They get involved in violent crimes because of peer pressure from their so called friends, but they do not show fear or opinions, the fear makes them catch on to the trend, go along with it, show no compassion, show no disagreement.

If you be nice, say something intelligent, have any compassion, then to them your pathetic, they would call you names or attack you etc

They would even greet each other with violence or name calling haha.
Basically it's good to be bad mentality or your a loser.

The problem in the UK is not how violent it is, but the main problem is this rising mentality among youths AND adults. Of course this trends popularity depends on the areas.
Other areas might have more problem with drunken groups after a night out causing trouble lol.


[edit on 5-7-2009 by _Phoenix_]

The gangsta wannabe mentality has taken a sharp rise here as well, and is the source of quite a lot of our trouble. sounds like that's the case there as well.

Part of the problem is that these wannabes here fancy themselves to be warriors of sorts, without having a conception of what actually being a warrior entails. They seem not to understand that just being a "steely eyed killa" don't cut it. That just makes one a thug, whom an actual warrior will tuck in for a dirt nap without losing his appetite.

They don't understand that being a warrior means one has to be FOR something, not AGAINST everything. It means doing what's right for your people, with any available tools, and weapons and violent behavior isn't always the way to accomplish that objective.

They don't understand it means PROTECTING the innocent and unsuspecting, not PREYING on them. They don't understand that it's not all about "toughness", even though a warrior IS a pretty tough cookie, it also involves compassion.

It's not about being an emotionless automaton. I've seen some pretty tough, "steely-eyed killers" cry like babies, and these gangstas wouldn't make a pimple on those men's arses.

They think because the have a "code", that makes them warriors, but there's much more to it than that.

They ain't the warriors they fancy, they're just predators. Real "warriors" have a way of dealing with predators that just leaves them... breathless!

And for some reason, it always amazes me that they're SURPRISED.

reply to post by nenothtu

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your starting to sound very pompous, if you could see past your ego you might understand the point i am trying to make, you have no idea who i am, and never will

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by nenothtu

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your starting to sound very pompous, if you could see past your ego you might understand the point i am trying to make, you have no idea who i am, and never will

Well of COURSE I'm pompous! I'm an American, after all! We're all pompous asses, are we not?

You've made your opinion of us clear, and I responded to what you've typed. It's that simple. Deal with it.

No, I have no idea who you are, nor do I have any desire to at this point, pursuant to your attack on my manhood, all the while not knowing me EITHER. I've run into that mouthy kind before, and haven't got much for them. It's not a matter of ego, it's a matter of life experience.

So if you have a point to make, please clarify it, and perhaps this befuddled old man before you will be able to grasp it.

reply to post by nenothtu

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i shall explain then, the british are a nation who have a lot of fights, we can do this because we do not have guns, the statistics that this thread is based on is/are bull, each country has different laws which classify what a violent crime is, in england you may get a kicking but you stand a lot less chance of being shot dead, i do not like fighting and do not fight, i avoid places were this behaviour occurs, this should not be confused with an inability to fight, for me there has to be a necessity. i have travelled to america and did not enjoy myself one bit, you have a beautiful country that has been spoilt by your society, our country is being spoilt by your society, a lot of the world is being spoilt by your society, it is our ignorant youth who have taken on the gangsta thug life influence portrayed in music and films that your country exports to the rest of the world which desensitises people to violence that has sent the youth of our country over the edge, that coupled with our government removing our ability to punish children for bad behaviour.

i do not wish to fight with you over these issues but your attitude has a terribly iratating pomposity to it, you are not coming across as more educated but as somebody who thinks they are far superior, peace.

reply to post by THELONIO

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Yep. The other day in Cincinnati, Ohio, a guy was shot and killed because the other guy said he stepped on his shoe. Sheesh! And about a month ago there, a guy walked past a convenience store, saw his enemy in there and pointed his finger at him and kept walking. The enemy ran out of the store, shot the guy in the back and then walked up to him a put a bullet in his head. His defense? He pointed his finger at me in a threatening way.

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by nenothtu

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i shall explain then, the british are a nation who have a lot of fights, we can do this because we do not have guns.

So your contention is that the British, as a nation, hold fighting to be a sport, and possession of firearms would end the sport permanently, for one side or the other?

the statistics that this thread is based on is/are bull, each country has different laws which classify what a violent crime is, in england you may get a kicking but you stand a lot less chance of being shot dead,

I can't argue with your assessment there. You live there, I don't. Personally, I'm not just going to stand there and take a kicking, but that's just me.

i do not like fighting and do not fight, i avoid places were this behaviour occurs, this should not be confused with an inability to fight, for me there has to be a necessity.

I commend you for that. I don't like fighting either. Avoidance is always to be preferred, so long as that's an option. Because I don't like fighting, I will put an end to it when it comes to me as quickly and efficiently as I can.

i have travelled to america and did not enjoy myself one bit, you have a beautiful country that has been spoilt by your society, our country is being spoilt by your society, a lot of the world is being spoilt by your society, it is our ignorant youth who have taken on the gangsta thug life influence portrayed in music and films that your country exports to the rest of the world which desensitises people to violence that has sent the youth of our country over the edge, that coupled with our government removing our ability to punish children for bad behaviour.

I'm sorry you didn't like our country. We each have our own preferences, which I suppose is why we have different nations on this planet. We sort of like our society, but you appear to have applied one subculture as the template for the entire culture here. I myself am not particularly fond of the subculture you refer to, but it is by no means our entire society. That particular segment of our society was allowed to take root for specifically the reasons you cite as already being present over there: to wit. the government removing our ability to punish our children for bad behaviour. That and an unreal increase in the proportion of single-parent homes. Kids in that subculture have no moral anchors any more, and a large percentage of them grew up without role models to teach them how men are supposed to act.

i do not wish to fight with you over these issues but your attitude has a terribly iratating pomposity to it, you are not coming across as more educated but as somebody who thinks they are far superior, peace.

To be honest, I don't care to fight with you either. However, calling me a "tart" just because you disagree with my methods of sorting out problems probably isn't the best way to broker a peaceful discourse. You don't have the same problems, and haven't a clue as to how I should best deal with them. As you say, the cultures are different.

I am, and always will be, just as abrasive, irritating, and pompous as I need to be to get my point across. That doesn't mean I'm always that way. When it isn't necessary, it isn't necessary. For confirmation, I suppose you could ask Bunken Drum. As I recall, we traded some fairly nasty verbal jabs before settling down and talking like adults. I could be wrong, as at the time I was flailing about like a madman, making contact with anything that got close enough. I'm not absolutely sure he got in my line of fire. However, once we settled down, things got civil right quickly. I don't think we've found much of ANYTHING to agree upon as yet, but I respect him, and his opinion, simply because he can hold up his end of a civil conversation.

There's no particular reason that I SHOULD come across as "more educated", since the simple fact is that I'm nothing more than an American hillbilly. That's neither a condemnation nor a badge of honor. It just IS.

Equally, there's no reason I should come across as "far superior", since that simply isn't the case. I'm no man's superior, but neither am I the inferior of any. I will make that clear to an attacker of any sort, as rapidly and efficiently as possible, so that I can get back to being peaceful.

And I am by no means a "tart".

Peace.

[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

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