Georgia freemasons at loggerheads over admission of black man to lodge, page 4

reply to post by Udontknowme

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it's sad that you even come into a thread in this forum. Your knowledge, or lack there of, is astounding. Since you know so much about masonry, I'll bet you are going to tell us all about the low level masons and such. All the while ignoring the fact that the teachings of the Scottish Rite and the York Rite are based around Jesus Christ. Blue Lodge masonry doesn't speak about Jesus Christ in the teachings, simply to keep religion out of the lodge. (an you claim it is a religion) You should really read a book or better yet, since your intellect might not permit such an action, ask some folks who know.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Udontknowme

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it's sad that you even come into a thread in this forum. Your knowledge, or lack there of, is astounding. Since you know so much about masonry, I'll bet you are going to tell us all about the low level masons and such. All the while ignoring the fact that the teachings of the Scottish Rite and the York Rite are based around Jesus Christ. Blue Lodge masonry doesn't speak about Jesus Christ in the teachings, simply to keep religion out of the lodge. (an you claim it is a religion) You should really read a book or better yet, since your intellect might not permit such an action, ask some folks who know.

Dude, my friend, you're falling into that age old trap of insulting those who question the motives and morals of freemasons. By doing this all you're doing is strengthening the guys belief that you're all devil worshippers simply because you turn your back on organised religion. . .
Let me ask you this question- How many religions do the members of your lodge belong too? By that I mean do you have any muslims, Hindu's, etc, in your lodge? And if so, do you ever find instances of conflicts of interest were, lets say, a muslim misunderstands or misinterprets a masonic lesson or law?

reply to post by eradown

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I think most Europeans not on the med coast are dark skinned due to evolution, not gaining traits from Africa.

I know Sicily is heavily influenced by Africa and you can see traits in them. However, weren't the Crusaders on there and on Rhodes ( or somewhere around there) part of the whole mason thingy, yet had African genetics within them?

If anything, I think they're just another KKK fringe group of idiots who need to meet this cool guy called the 21st century.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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Let me ask you this question- How many religions do the members of your lodge belong too? By that I mean do you have any muslims, Hindu's, etc, in your lodge? And if so, do you ever find instances of conflicts of interest were, lets say, a muslim misunderstands or misinterprets a masonic lesson or law?

My town in general does not have very many people of different religions, and therefore neither does our lodge. Our lodge does have a couple of Korean men, but I think they are Christian. As in my other posts on ATS, I don't think the USA has very many "real" Christians! We have Deitists that call themselves Christians.

None of the so-called Christians that I know believe Christ to be the "Only" way to salvation, and therefore they are not Christians. All the ones I know believe that a person can obtain heaven by being a "good" person, and treating your fellow man the right way. The believe that people from many religions will still be able to obtain a right to heaven. That means they are not Christians. To be a Christian you must believe in the word of Christ as infallible, and he says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6. Sorry Christians, but either you are not a true believer, or the rest of us are going to hell.

Therefore, most people in our lodge are also not Christians. They are Deitists just like our founding fathers were!!

To be entirely honest, I don't know the religion of 2/3 rds of our members. It is not discussed during lodge except just enough to establish that a candidate believes in one all-powerful being. We pray, but we pray to the "Grand Architect of the Universe" or similar descriptions. That is pretty universal as far as religions. The Holy Bible is the center piece of our activities during lodge, but for Shriners the "Epic of Gilgamesh" and the Quran and the Holy Bible share the focal center of the Lodge!

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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The problem with that post is two fold. Firstly Masonry isn't a religion, secondly it has nothing to do with the Anti-Christ. When anyone starts spouting things such as that, I kind of have to speak my mind. Just as you would think the guy who wanted to argue that the sky is green needed to be told the real truth. If for no other reason, then to keep him from thinking he is right.

edit to add:

My lodge is made up of mostly Christians. I am in the South (bible belt) so it's hard to swing a dead cat without hitting a preacher. Freemasonry is tolerant of all religions to keep harmony in the lodge.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by network dude]

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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The problem with that post is two fold. Firstly Masonry isn't a religion, secondly it has nothing to do with the Anti-Christ. When anyone starts spouting things such as that, I kind of have to speak my mind. Just as you would think the guy who wanted to argue that the sky is green needed to be told the real truth. If for no other reason, then to keep him from thinking he is right.

edit to add:

My lodge is made up of mostly Christians. I am in the South (bible belt) so it's hard to swing a dead cat without hitting a preacher. Freemasonry is tolerant of all religions to keep harmony in the lodge.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by network dude]

But surely you can see why people look on freemasonry as a religion? You believe in a supreme being and truly believe that being a mason makes you a better person. Its christianity by any other name!
I can understand masons getting uptight when they are accussed of child abuse and being involved in devil worship but I find it extremely baffling why you get so upset when we call freemasonry a religion. Just because you don't talk about, or mention, other religions doesn't mean you aren't following a belief system by just being a mason. . .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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All belief systems are religions? Being a better person makes you a Christian?

I believe if I plant seeds today, I will have plants in a week or two, but farming is not a religion?! I believe if I go the speed limit I will have better insurance rates, but that is not a religion? Law enforcement agencies strive to make us better people by not breaking the laws of society but they are not religions?

We don't get upset about Masonry be "compared" to religions, but assigning it to any one religion, or saying that it is a religion on its own account is just wrong. It is unfactual, and the opponents of Freemasonry use it as a platform to attack from.

I am certainly not a Christian, although I am religious. Ben Franklin was not a Christian. Freemasonry was around a couple of thousand years before Christ, so it is impossible that it was based on Christ's teachings! Scottish Rite is highly based on Christ's teachings, but Freemasonry pre-dates all of that.

It is neither Christian nor Satanic, it is simply older than either of those notions.

reply to post by getreadyalready

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All belief systems are religions? Being a better person makes you a Christian?

And here we have the biggest problem with freemasons, they continually misquote you in an effort to bypass the question or statement. . .
I'll say it again, why do freemasons get so ratty the moment anyone mentions the R word (religion)? If you believe in the supreme being, the grand architect, etc, and pray to him then surely you are practising a religion.
Also, Isn't it hugely arrogant to believe that freemasonry can take an ordinary man off the street and make him a better man? Please tell us how you would make me a better man?

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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Really? It is unbelievable that an organization of people could take a person off the street and make them a better person?

YMCA = Religion? Or unbelievable success story.
AA = Religion? Universities = Religion?

There are innumerable ways to improve the quality of a person! ATS is a prime example! Just a little bit of new information, or a role model, or a support system to grow in. Freemasonry provides all three of those and more!

I wasn't trying to be ratty, lol! It boils down to semantics I guess. I could call Capitalism a religion and make a very strong case for it! People call professional sports a religion, and make good cases for it.

The reasons Mason's use "Supreme Deity" is to avoid pigeon-holing one religion. God, Allah, Buddha, Mother Nature, Jesus, Vishnu, or any other all-powerful being can be substituted in our work! Our work is not centered around any such being, it is centered around living an "Upright" and "Honest" life! It does not guarantee anybody a "heaven" it just teaches us to strive for it.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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www.google.com...:religion&ei=rON6Sru1M46HmQfYxZTJBw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Many definitions for "Religion" and you are correct that Masonry falls into the majority of these definitions.

However so does computer code, T and C's, and bowling leagues.

A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued or sacred; Any practice that someone or some group is seriously ...

A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often ...

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by getreadyalready

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All belief systems are religions? Being a better person makes you a Christian?

And here we have the biggest problem with freemasons, they continually misquote you in an effort to bypass the question or statement. . .
I'll say it again, why do freemasons get so ratty the moment anyone mentions the R word (religion)? If you believe in the supreme being, the grand architect, etc, and pray to him then surely you are practising a religion.
Also, Isn't it hugely arrogant to believe that freemasonry can take an ordinary man off the street and make him a better man? Please tell us how you would make me a better man?

Please don't get so defensive. I try not to, but I do fly off the handle at times. I have said before that I personally consider freemasonry my religion. That is my interpertation of my relationship with God. When I say that I mean that I don't go to church. I don't think you need to have any help in communicating with God. But when i go to the lodge, I have fellowship with my brothers. (like church) I say prayers to the God of my choice.(unlike church. There you have to pray to the god of THEIR choice.) Most masons who attend church and probably most who do not would not share my interpertation of religion. And rightfully so. It is a personal journey and nobody but me gets to go. You have your own personal journey. Freemasonry is not a religion because it does not offer salvation. I heard that said before and it makes sense. I don't know if you have seen the "fundies" bash freemasonry, but you should check it out. (fundie= fundimentalist Christian) these are the same folks who believe that if you aren't a Catholic you are going to hell, or if you aren't a baptist, you are doomed to hell. these people have tiny little minds. Freemasonry encourages you to practice your own religion and be active in your church. It doesn't try to take the place of any religion. I feel it brings me closer to God in the ways I deal with my fellow man.

In answer to your question about how masonry could make you better:
we take a GOOD man and make him better. We DO NOT take a bad man and make him good. Prisons attempt to do that. In the teachings of masonry you will subconsiously be reminded of the lessons you learned about helping someone out. it might be the greasy bum who has been drunk for the last three years out with a meal. I would honestly tell you that before I became a mason, I would have just tried to avoid this guy. But now something inside me tells me to at least speak to him and ask him how he is. You won't know how it affects you personally until you take that journey.

reply to post by network dude

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Seems to me that what you're saying is that freemasonry makes "you" more charitable and easy going? If that's right it can only be commended but this is freemasonry's effect on you personally. If you're already a good man then freemasonry may make you a better man but what about if you were bad and had evil intent? Could freemasonry make you a worse person or a dangerous person?

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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A person without brotherly love and charity in his heart would not gain anything at all from masonry. the teachings are just that. Words and symbols presented to you. What you do with them is completely up to you. I doubt a lawyer who spent his whole career cheating people out of their life savings would gain anything form the allegory involved it helping a fellow mason who was destitute. (lesson learned in the first degree) It is described as a beautiful system of morality veiled in symbols and allegory.

edit to add: if you are already a butt head, masonry won't fix that. And if the brothers who are charged with finding out if you would make a good mason do their job, the butt head would not become a mason.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by network dude]

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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A person without brotherly love and charity in his heart would not gain anything at all from masonry. the teachings are just that. Words and symbols presented to you. What you do with them is completely up to you. I doubt a lawyer who spent his whole career cheating people out of their life savings would gain anything form the allegory involved it helping a fellow mason who was destitute. (lesson learned in the first degree) It is described as a beautiful system of morality veiled in symbols and allegory.

Well, we're going back over old ground aren't we? I've already said that most legal professionals, police officers, etc, use masonry as a way of connecting with the right people who can gain them promotion. Lets say that 99% of freemasons are decent people who join for all the right reasons and who, after taking the degrees, do emerge as better more rounded people. What about those 1% who use the fraternity for their own means. Those utterly evil individuals who manipulate those around them to get what they want. One of these people in the masons could bring about carnage.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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There are most certainly a few of those folks that exist. And again, I cannot speak for any area other than the one I live in. But if someone joins the masons and goes through the degrees then pays his dues and never visits the lodge again, he would only be cheating himself. Missing the best part of being a mason. It should not be used as a tool. I am sure it does happen and if found out that a common ideal in any certain are is that one must be a brother to advance, should be dealt with at the grand lodge level. That would be a scandal similar to the P2 lodge mess. It just ins't what masonry is all about. there are too many truly evil things in this world without inventing a new demon.

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