The Virgin Mary

reply to post by Mahree

And to Helen670

I'm sorry, as a former catholic, i must say, I have to agree with Miriam0566 and the others who are pointing out that the catholic church have elevated Mary to the point of being almost *co-redeemer* along with Jesus.

As a matter of fact, I was reading recently that the argument being put forth in favor of elevating Mary to co-redeemer was based on the fact that she suffered as much as Jesus due to her seeing her son die on the cross, and *giving* Him up to be sacrificed.

However, Jesus himself did not give his mother any special status. When she asked him to help the wedding couple at Cana, He said

"Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."


In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus says the following about his mother and siblings:

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The catholic church HAS elevated the status of Mary to a blasphemous level, and the *saints* as well.

Mary is commonly referred to as "Queen of Heaven", here is what God has to say about that:

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

See Jeremiah 44 for God's response.


Jesus said HE is the only mediator between mankind and the Father, NOT Mary. By praying to Mary to *ask* Jesus or the Father to do things we are elevating her to an idol.

Mary could not have been born without sin, the Bible states only Jesus was born without sin.

Mary was NOT a perpetual virgin, "first born son" would mean exactly what it says, implying there was at least one other son.

When I really started reading the Bible, (which is something that is not encouraged in the church, and only snippets from the Bible are read in the mass) and studying scripture and prophecy, I had a catholic Bible that had been given to me. After reading about how the catholics changed the ten commandments, I got another Bible and checked for myself. I stopped using my catholic Bible, because the article I read was correct.

This is the wording of the ten commandments that I was taught in the catholic church as a child

here

Here is a link that shows the difference. The chart is about halfway down the page, but I recommend reading the whole article, it will really make you think.

compare ten commandments, catholic vs King James versions

And don't get me started on the difference between *venial* and *mortal* sins in the catholic church! In the Bible, a sin is a sin is a sin, no difference between a liar, and a murderer.


If you sincerely pray to God the Father for guidance, your eyes will be opened, as mine were.

God Bless




[edit on 18-7-2009 by sezsue]

reply to post by sezsue


Hi sez/

"Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."

And then Jesus Christ DID the WILL of His Mother!

Put down the whole Scripture!
The Orthodox Church DO NOT worship Theotokos...They Revere her!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by sezsue
reply to post by Mahree



However, Jesus himself did not give his mother any special status. When she asked him to help the wedding couple at Cana, He said

"Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."

Helen answered the above for you. He performed His first miracle because of His mother.

In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus says the following about his mother and siblings:

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Yes, we are now all brothers and sisters and mother of Jesus. No argument about that. Jesus is God and Mary is still His mother. He created Mary to be His mother. He is not denying that. Now that He is here He is adding the rest of us to His family.

Jesus said HE is the only mediator between mankind and the Father, NOT Mary. By praying to Mary to *ask* Jesus or the Father to do things we are elevating her to an idol.

No argument that Jesus is the only mediator between mankind and the Father. What is the difference of asking me to pray for you and asking Mary, his mother, to pray for you?

Mary could not have been born without sin, the Bible states only Jesus was born without sin.

It was by the merits of her son that she was born without sin. A pure vessel for the baby Jesus.

Mary was NOT a perpetual virgin, "first born son" would mean exactly what it says, implying there was at least one other son.

First born son means only that. You say that it implies more sons.

When I really started reading the Bible, (which is something that is not encouraged in the church, and only snippets from the Bible are read in the mass) and studying scripture and prophecy,

Of course we read the Bible. Perhaps some Catholics don't the same as some protestants don't. By the way...the entire Bible is read constantly at Mass by what you call "those little snippets". If you did attend Mass you would see that it is continuously read every day until the entire Bible has been read and then it starts over.

If you sincerely pray to God the Father for guidance, your eyes will be opened, as mine were.

I did pray to God and my eyes were opened and I became a Catholic.

reply to post by helen670

"Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."

And then Jesus Christ DID the WILL of His Mother!

Put down the whole Scripture!
The Orthodox Church DO NOT worship Theotokos...They Revere her!

ICXC NIKA
helen


You picked out this part to criticize? What about my quote from Jeremiah? Nothing to say about that?


from dictionary.com

Related Words for : revere

hero-worship, idolise, idolize, worship, fear

Synonyms: These verbs mean to regard with the deepest respect, deference, and esteem.
Revere suggests awe coupled with profound honor: "At least one third of the population ... reveres every sort of holy man" (Rudyard Kipling).
Worship implies reverent love and homage rendered to God or a god: The ancient Egyptians worshiped a number of gods. In a more general sense worship connotes an often uncritical devotion: "She had worshiped intellect" (Charles Kingsley).
Venerate connotes reverence accorded by virtue, especially of dignity or age: "I venerate the memory of my grandfather" (Horace Walpole).
To adore is to worship with deep, often rapturous love: The students adored their caring teacher.
Idolize implies worship like that accorded an object of religious devotion: He idolizes his wife.

What dictionary are you looking at? I guess a rose by any other name smells just the same.......be honest with yourself.

God Bless






[edit on 18-7-2009 by sezsue]

[edit on 18-7-2009 by sezsue]

reply to post by Mahree

Mary could not have been born without sin, the Bible states only Jesus was born without sin.

It was by the merits of her son that she was born without sin. A pure vessel for the baby Jesus.

What scripture supports your above statement?

Mary was NOT a perpetual virgin, "first born son" would mean exactly what it says, implying there was at least one other son.

First born son means only that. You say that it implies more sons.

Why would the scriptures say "first born" then?

When I really started reading the Bible, (which is something that is not encouraged in the church, and only snippets from the Bible are read in the mass) and studying scripture and prophecy,

Of course we read the Bible. Perhaps some Catholics don't the same as some protestants don't. By the way...the entire Bible is read constantly at Mass by what you call "those little snippets". If you did attend Mass you would see that it is continuously read every day until the entire Bible has been read and then it starts over.

I did go to mass, which is why I stated the above, about *snippets*. All the catholic churches I went to, the priests' homilies were given more time and prominence than the Bible readings. In fact, usually the Bible readings were kinda the *Reader's Digest* version. And, I have never heard any of Revelations read in the mass, have you?

If you sincerely pray to God the Father for guidance, your eyes will be opened, as mine were.

I did pray to God and my eyes were opened and I became a Catholic.

Have YOU read Revelations? It was partly because of the description of the *whore of Babylon* dressed in purple (bishops) and scarlet (cardinals) etc. that I quit the church.

Even the catholic church's own writings admit there are no Biblical underpinings for many of their doctrines, including elevating Mary to a status that is not Biblical.

The Bible only mentions Mary a few times, and does not even state what happened to her. Since she lived in Jerusalem with certain of the disciples after Jesus' crucifixion, why wouldn't they have added it to their gospels?
Since they didn't, I would have to think that God didn't want people to get side tracked by Mary, when God himself, and Jesus, are who we should be keeping our thoughts on, and praying to, not Mary.

All of the catholic churches I attended had many great people as members, both lay people and religious, and when you love your church family and organization, you will defend it.....as I did myself. There comes a time though, when the evidence becomes too great to be able to hide from the knowledge of it, kinda like when a loved one cheats, or a family member abuses a child, or a friend steals from you.



God Bless

I guess we are not going to agree about most of the above. My love and faith in God carries me through all of life challenges. I have seen many miracles in my own life.

God may not have answered my prayers the way that I intended, but when I look back I know that He answered my prayers in the ways that would bring me the greatest good.

I think you will find the readings from the Bible are continued, as I have mentioned, and the priest, in his homily, will then equate those readings to the world we live in today and how they still apply to us.

God Bless,

Mahree

i think that when most of the bible puts emphasis on worshipping god and god alone (through commandments and examples) i think it should every christian's priority to "step carefully" when it comes to reverence.

there is nothing wrong with paintings and statues, but they have to be kept in their rightful place.

having a statue of a saint, mary or other, and then praying to it is no different than an idol.

this is not just limited to the saints, what about cross worship?

just because you use an idol that "represents" something else doesnt at all change the fact that its an idol and that its unacceptable to god. if a christian is concerned with serving god moreso than following tradition, he would step carefully on this subject.

the bible has quite about of precedence on this matter

reply to post by silent thunder


folks before you come down crushing on me let me give you a brief introduction of my "Marian" background. I was once/former memberof a religious congregation known as "frateli maristae scole"fms" in short.they run schools such as the notre dame schools worldwide.and quite frankly they are the most dynamic group in the field of mariam devotion. everything bout "mama mary" from birth to assumption dogmas they kind of celebrate it with fervor and such devotion.of which i did when i was one of them.
but people has to grow both intellectually and spiritually and while i was still with them i kind of really tried to find out the roots of such devotion and thats where i got fouled out by my religious superiors. it seems that i delved too deep into an area which i shouldnt be.
By tracing back the history of the congregation where it started ,which turns out to be a place in southern france where a different kind of mary is being worshipped.The original founder himself of this congregation hailed from this area.by the way the founders' name is a "blessed marcelin champagnat".or marcellin of champagnat.
its getting quite of a lenghty story now so i'll just ask you to connect it from here. i'll provide you with a list of names of theophilosophical authors and researchers such as Barbra thiering, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, books like The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, the Secret of the Knight Templars to name a few.if one is really cognizant of whats in the bible - the new testament to be particular you can sense the strain of how the Vatican then and now is trying to continue this deception played upon its own faithful.